From a public perception standpoint following the scandal we were in a very bad place.
Sid: P.J. Fleck engineered historic Gophers turnaround; end of Claeys era "lowest points for any major college football program"
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RobertPaulson
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This is laughable Minnesota had nothing good going for them it was time for a change and everyone knew it
LakerFan
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So should we look at Pete Carroll as leaving USC in really good shape because they were winning lots of games, or can you let other factors like a post exit two year bowl ban and loss of scholarships color his exit? Claeys left this program a mess culminating in his own team boycotting a bowl game (temporarily) with his tacit approval in abstentia. I'm still not sure which part of that is the worst, the fact that they boycotted, the fact that he indicated he supported them for boycotting but wasn't leading the boycott himself, or the fact that while that was happening he wasn't there.
Not sure Jim Dutcher would define his 85-86 season by wins and losses either. That's always going to be the Mitch Lee season. If you asked most hoops fans that is probably their vote for lowest spot in team history, the Gangelhoff scandal was more impactful to former glory but pales in comparison to a player accused of rape on a road trip.
John Galt
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PJ “appears to be” a better coach than Claeys...
LOL - what more evidence could anyone possibly need? Pretty much any school in America would be happy with Fleck as their coach. Claeys is about one step away from being back in Kansas tending bar.
RobertPaulson
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Spoofin just doesn’t understand
Spoofin
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Very good JG. I said in the same post you quoted that we are in a better place than we would have been w/ TC, yet as a true fleckster you cling to the "certainly appears to be" as a slight. I don't need any more proof, yes, PJ is a better coach than Claeys. Happier?
Spoofin
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If only I would have said that the article didn't use that exact wording you could have been prepared, smh.
Again, I don't have a transcript of every PJ speech so that means I am lying. BINGO. All other links I sent you months ago of others discussing this topic dating back to WMU days - liars. PJ saying over and over that he leaves Xs and Os to his coordinators, authors stating he fancies himself more of a motivator than Xs and Os guy, etc. are NOT the same thing as him saying exactly "I'm not an Xs and Os guy". You are correct. I guess I'll just keep lying.
Amazing what a few complete idiots can do to a football program. Kill/Claeys did nothing to bring about the events that occurred the night of the scandal. Claeys was at a required media event in California when the famous boycott was announced, others precipitated this, not him. Claeys did a good job here and we will never know how the following year would have gone. Because of all of that we have a new coach. The hire looks right at this point but to say the previous coach left a mess is unfair. What Claeys left was pretty adequate for the Fleck "rebuild". No coach or AD is immune to scandals and negative program changing events like we saw. A staff can lock the kids in their dorms all they want but an idiot can always surface changing the course of the program.
MNVCGUY
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Claeys did do a good job as a placeholder who was forced into a tough spot he wasn't well equipped for when Kill had to step down. We didn't get a new coach because of the scandal, we got a new coach because we had a new AD who wanted to hire his own guy to run the program.
As for how 2017 would have gone without the coaching change though....our QB room would have consisted of Demry Croft and a JC kid who ended up going back to the JC ranks and switching positions. It wasn't going to be pretty no matter who was running the show. And on top of that we wouldn't have had a player redshirting by the name of Tanner Morgan who has turned out to be just a slight upgrade over anything we have had at the QB position since the days of Sandy Stephens.
short ornery norwegian
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On the X's and O's front.
Again, it is NOT a criticism of Fleck to suggest that he is not involved with drawing up offensive and defensive sets on a daily basis.
There are different ways to run a FB team. Some head Coaches function as a de facto Coordinator, including calling plays on O or D. Other coaches are less involved in the day-to-day work on offense and defense. They focus more attention on motivation and recruiting. that does NOT mean they don't know what's going on with the O or D. It just means they are not as actively involved in the day-to-day mechanisms of O and D.
Fleck is what I would call the CEO style coach. he runs the overall program, focusing on motivation and recruiting, with less direct daily involvement with drawing up plays. But, he certainly knows what's in the game plans for Saturday, and has the right to suggest plays or strategic moves.
he is not the main play-caller on O and D. that does NOT make him a bad coach. it makes him a different kind of coach. AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!
Again, it is NOT a criticism of Fleck to suggest that he is not involved with drawing up offensive and defensive sets on a daily basis.
There are different ways to run a FB team. Some head Coaches function as a de facto Coordinator, including calling plays on O or D. Other coaches are less involved in the day-to-day work on offense and defense. They focus more attention on motivation and recruiting. that does NOT mean they don't know what's going on with the O or D. It just means they are not as actively involved in the day-to-day mechanisms of O and D.
Fleck is what I would call the CEO style coach. he runs the overall program, focusing on motivation and recruiting, with less direct daily involvement with drawing up plays. But, he certainly knows what's in the game plans for Saturday, and has the right to suggest plays or strategic moves.
he is not the main play-caller on O and D. that does NOT make him a bad coach. it makes him a different kind of coach. AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!
FredCoxRocks
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Sorry, I'm late to the party.
Ya, I was okay with the U giving Claeys the job when they did, I even forgave him for signing off on that that stupid F'ing pass play right before halftime against Purdue, and also to some degree the shitshow at the end of the Michigan game; but, after the train scandal and how he handled it, he needed to be fired. The #metoo movement was in full swing and keeping him was just something liberal Minnesotans would not have accepted. I think the aftermath would have been disastrous and that 9-win season would have been the ceiling for Gopher football under his reign. I too think Winfield would have bolted, along with several other players; and, we would lose about 3-4 guys a game to targeting calls
. It would have been very tough to recruit going forward.
We would never have experienced a season like this year had he been able to stay...in my opinion. I think PJ Fleck is better and I am glad he is here.
My two cents.
Ya, I was okay with the U giving Claeys the job when they did, I even forgave him for signing off on that that stupid F'ing pass play right before halftime against Purdue, and also to some degree the shitshow at the end of the Michigan game; but, after the train scandal and how he handled it, he needed to be fired. The #metoo movement was in full swing and keeping him was just something liberal Minnesotans would not have accepted. I think the aftermath would have been disastrous and that 9-win season would have been the ceiling for Gopher football under his reign. I too think Winfield would have bolted, along with several other players; and, we would lose about 3-4 guys a game to targeting calls
. It would have been very tough to recruit going forward.We would never have experienced a season like this year had he been able to stay...in my opinion. I think PJ Fleck is better and I am glad he is here.
My two cents.
MaxyJR1
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I agree that these arguments get old and that Kill/Claeys and Fleck are different types of coaches. Fleck may be better on x's and o's we just don't know how involved he is. Offense was off the charts and defense gave up the fewest yards per game in 40 years. Fleck is fine at identifying x's and o's that work.
Spaulding!No!
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that Purdue pass deserves it's own thread. We will never know who was at fault.
Otis
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I kind of look at Gopher Football as a house.
Brewster - Gets this old Victorian house and makes big plans and dreams about restoring it to it's former grandeur! Lines up investors to donate funding and does almost nothing to the building. Leaves it in such neglect, it ends up a haven for vandals and drug traffic. A real Hell hole!
Kill - Takes over the Reno project and strips out all the rotted walls down the 2x4s. Puts a fence around the building and gets the security to ensure no further damage is done. Lines up a supply chain to provide adequate building materials to finish the project. Un fortunately he is called away by events and turns it over to his site foreman.
Claeys - The Site Foreman intends on following the Kill plan and moves forward with the same sights of his predecessor. Unfortunately, despite great weather conditions, flaws in the foundation are exposed and the Foreman is ill-equipped to deal with these sudden problems. His lack of leadership disenfranchises both workers and investors who ultimately feel doomed the project will be forever under way with no end in sight.
Fleck - Investors hire a new and upcoming contractor with his own unique style on getting things done. He sets the foundation for the building before even showing up on-site. He personally ensures all of his workers have a clear understanding of his vision and plan. He gets all the dry-wall installed and fixes the roof while adding much needed insulation to help keep things warm during a Minnesota off-season. Despite this initial success he keeps going with plans and hires more skilled craftsmen. He adds to the solid plan and throws in extras like a deck and fire pit. He even talks about potentially adding a pool and tennis courts! Neighbors are amazed by the progress and local home costs are positively affected revitalizing the area.
I don't know why, but this just seems to make sense to me in looking at these coaches. Jerry could have had success with no health problems but Claeys and Brewster were in over their heads.
Fleck is the man for this job!
Brewster - Gets this old Victorian house and makes big plans and dreams about restoring it to it's former grandeur! Lines up investors to donate funding and does almost nothing to the building. Leaves it in such neglect, it ends up a haven for vandals and drug traffic. A real Hell hole!
Kill - Takes over the Reno project and strips out all the rotted walls down the 2x4s. Puts a fence around the building and gets the security to ensure no further damage is done. Lines up a supply chain to provide adequate building materials to finish the project. Un fortunately he is called away by events and turns it over to his site foreman.
Claeys - The Site Foreman intends on following the Kill plan and moves forward with the same sights of his predecessor. Unfortunately, despite great weather conditions, flaws in the foundation are exposed and the Foreman is ill-equipped to deal with these sudden problems. His lack of leadership disenfranchises both workers and investors who ultimately feel doomed the project will be forever under way with no end in sight.
Fleck - Investors hire a new and upcoming contractor with his own unique style on getting things done. He sets the foundation for the building before even showing up on-site. He personally ensures all of his workers have a clear understanding of his vision and plan. He gets all the dry-wall installed and fixes the roof while adding much needed insulation to help keep things warm during a Minnesota off-season. Despite this initial success he keeps going with plans and hires more skilled craftsmen. He adds to the solid plan and throws in extras like a deck and fire pit. He even talks about potentially adding a pool and tennis courts! Neighbors are amazed by the progress and local home costs are positively affected revitalizing the area.
I don't know why, but this just seems to make sense to me in looking at these coaches. Jerry could have had success with no health problems but Claeys and Brewster were in over their heads.
Fleck is the man for this job!
Thanks for admitting he never said it. You should stop lying about stuff. Makes you look like a dumb ass more than just an ass
RobertPaulson
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Hahaha poor spoofin
GFBfan
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KC said it while at WMU. https://www.mlive.com/broncos/2016/12/western_michigan_offensivedefe.html
No where in there does anyone say Fleck isn’t an Xs and Os guy.
letting your coaches handle the game plan is not close to being the same thing as not being and Xs and Os guy.
There are connotations to people claiming he has himself said he isn’t an Xs and Os guy. Not sure why people want those connotation invoked. If they don’t want those connotations invoked, not sure why they are making up quotes that were never said.
Spoofin
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Just to be clear - you know I'm lying because you want me to be lying. I know what I heard and you doubting it doesn't change that. I've provided you links to message boards from WMU days with folks recalling him saying the same thing (they were liars before I knew who PJ was). Other people have provided you a number of links now with circumstantial evidence that PJ doesn't think of himself as an Xs and Os guy - but for some reason you still think it is out of the realm of possibility that he said it?
No one has said he doesn't know Xs and Os. He is a successful P5 coach - it would be ridiculous to suggest he doesn't. No one thinks he meant it literally - not even me. It was just one of those things he said. He does that from time to time....
Spoofin
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The Daily Gopher making up lies way back in 2017....
"One consequence of publicly claiming to be a big picture guy is that media and fans have taken him at his word that he does not understand X’s and O’s, when that is not his point."
www.thedailygopher.com
"One consequence of publicly claiming to be a big picture guy is that media and fans have taken him at his word that he does not understand X’s and O’s, when that is not his point."
TDG Football Seminar: What is a strategy?
Welcome back to TDG’s Football Seminar. This week, we get philosophical about the nature of our subject. In 1832 Marie Von Bruhl published posthumously Carl von Clausewitz’s Vom Kriege. For those...
www.thedailygopher.com
RobertPaulson
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No one caresThe Daily Gopher making up lies way back in 2017....
"One consequence of publicly claiming to be a big picture guy is that media and fans have taken him at his word that he does not understand X’s and O’s, when that is not his point."
TDG Football Seminar: What is a strategy?
Welcome back to TDG’s Football Seminar. This week, we get philosophical about the nature of our subject. In 1832 Marie Von Bruhl published posthumously Carl von Clausewitz’s Vom Kriege. For those...
Provide the links in this thread.
Easy. The daily gopher article you just posted is borderline satire and says that his point ISNT that he doesn’t know Xs and Os and you’re using it as proof that he makes this claim
“One consequence of publicly claiming to be a big picture guy is that media and fans have taken him at his word that he does not understand X’s and O’s, when that is not his point. Fleck’s point is that he has delegated operational responsibility to his coordinators and position coaches. P.J. Fleck can diagram any play in the Gophers playbook without difficulty and explain what each player’s assignment is supposed to be, much in the same way that a general can describe in great detail what the tactical responsibility of a unit will be in a battle. In the same way that we do not want generals buried in operational minutia, we do not want Fleck to be micromanaging every aspect of his game plan. That’s why we pay Robb Smith and Kirk Ciarrocca and by extension, why there are position coaches.”
the article is literally making fun of people like you and you’re using it to prove your point
there’s no doubt he maybe said it In your own delusional mind. Not sure why you have these delusions. Seek help if you’re hearing voices
This is false. Spoofin cares a great deal for some reason. I think he hears PJ’s voice in his head at night saying things. It’s the only way he has heard these quotes he uses that don’t exist on paper or on video
Spoofin
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This is a Feb 2019 debate from GH that hadn’t had a mention until YOU raised it up out of the blue 11 months later. Yeah, you don’t care.
TDG article flat out says “fans have taken him at his word that he doesn’t know Xs & Os”. Yes it is satire about people who believe he doesn’t know them (NO ONE thinks that), but even you must know what “at his word” means.
You said in Feb 2019 that a few people on a message board wasn’t proof enough for you. It is a multi-person/multi-year conspiracy and even TDG is in on it. Good thing you don’t care.
RobertPaulson
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Spoofin does seem crazy. Maybe that’s why he doesn’t like PJ. Poor poor spoofin. GH is here for you buddy
Livingat45north
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Or, maybe he's simply calling Spoofin a "no one".
RobertPaulson
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Do you think PJ hits spoofin with oars?
John Galt
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One of Auburn's defensive players praised our offensive scheme and said something to the effect that he had never seen anyone in college football run some of the plays that we ran.
So I would imagine that someone on the staff is pretty good with X's and O's even without Ciarocca.
So I would imagine that someone on the staff is pretty good with X's and O's even without Ciarocca.