***MINNESOTA AT NEBRASKA BOTH TEAMS NEED A WIN IN-GAME THREAD!!!***

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short ornery norwegian said:
I do think some of it just comes down to this:

Which team has the better athletes?

Most nights in the B1G, the Gophers simply are not as athletic as the teams they are playing. Now, you can overcome that with a combination of effort, schemes and effective play. But, when push comes to shove, athletes make plays. and the team with better athletes or more athletes is generally going to make more plays.

now, it looks like the Gophs will be more athletic next year with the players coming in and the players coming off injury. but there is still a lot of room for improvement in that area.
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We also need a bench. You can overcome the athletes too. You see it every March. But you need to have some bench. Our bench is far too much of a drop off from the starters... and that is saying something if our starters are already not as solid as other rosters. The fatigue factor has hit hard. Curry's injury still hasn't healed. Players will playing through flu and possibly COVID. Ramberg is now out. Starters legs are getting heavy!
 

Bad Gopher said:
Not saying they didn't overachieve; I'm saying it's hard to make a convincing case--to recruits, fans, media, etc. The feather in their hat would still be to finish strong and separate themselves from last place in the conference. What you're trying to do this year is make a lockdown case to coaches and parents that their sons are going to be developed, coached well, and have a chance to win at Minnesota.
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Do you really think a couple wins would drastically shift the needle that much with any of those groups you mentioned?

Team played horrible last night, but for the most part this year anyone paying attention has seen an undermanned team go out and play really hard each night. Winning some games it shouldn't have and pushing good teams to the brink. On paper, our collection of players should get blown out most nights. The fact that hasn't been happening is a testament to the players and coaches and a good sign of what may be to come for this program when it has athletes and a roster that is better setup to compete.
 

ecoperson said:
You continue to deploy the same simplistic black/white analysis that you tend to use elsewhere. One must be willing to explore the gray instead of digging in your heels.
  • There was little to no film on Thompson until Rutgers. Teams now know his strengths and weaknesses and can exploit them.
  • Rutgers walked in thinking they would run away with the game against a squad that could barely make the minimum 7 players. Rutgers got behind and we were fortunate that the game ended when it did or we might have lost.
  • Thompson may have matched up perfectly against Rutgers as they do not have a dominant inside game.
  • Players sometimes have one game where they play out of their mind. They then regress to the mean. Does Charles Buggs several years ago against Iowa ring a bell? Brandon Johnson went off with the 3 ball last year vs.Iowa but never showed that level of form and accuracy again.
No one is claiming that Thompson is garbage. They are just aware enough to know that freshman bigs take some time to mature.
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Very little analysis and quite a bit of projection, for sure.

TT doesn't have any strengths, according to most on GH. He needs to sit, and learn in practice.
Cliff Omoryuri isn't Kofi or Edey, still pretty good in the post. Your reaching.
TT hasn't played out of his mind, as you say. He has been OK for a kid having played so few minutes in college BB. And nobody is game planning for TT.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
I do think some of it just comes down to this:

Which team has the better athletes?

Most nights in the B1G, the Gophers simply are not as athletic as the teams they are playing. Now, you can overcome that with a combination of effort, schemes and effective play. But, when push comes to shove, athletes make plays. and the team with better athletes or more athletes is generally going to make more plays.

now, it looks like the Gophs will be more athletic next year with the players coming in and the players coming off injury. but there is still a lot of room for improvement in that area.
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Yet to be seen and relative.........
 

MNVCGUY said:
Do you really think a couple wins would drastically shift the needle that much with any of those groups you mentioned?

Team played horrible last night, but for the most part this year anyone paying attention has seen an undermanned team go out and play really hard each night. Winning some games it shouldn't have and pushing good teams to the brink. On paper, our collection of players should get blown out most nights. The fact that hasn't been happening is a testament to the players and coaches and a good sign of what may be to come for this program when it has athletes and a roster that is better setup to compete.
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So you dont think the way the team has played / success the past couple weeks give no pause to potential recruits?
 


BarnBurner said:
So you dont think the way the team has played / success the past couple weeks give no pause to potential recruits?
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No I honestly don't, because any recruit who is considering playing here knows that the majority of the players on this year's team won't be here next year.

And while fans dwell on single games or clusters of games, if I am a recruit I am looking at the whole body of work not just a disappointing loss to Nebraska or a 2nd half collapse against Iowa.

Any recruit who is swayed one way or the other by a single result or even a couple results isn't doing their homework because they should be basing their decision on the program as a whole and not just on what happens in a few games.

If the game last night takes Minnesota off your list of potential college destinations then you weren't really considering Minnesota as a destination in the first place.
 

howeda7 said:
The allure is that he's better than Daniels and Ogele. Playing seniors with no upside helps neither today or tomorrow.
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It would help us today, because he isn't very good right now. Ogelle played like two minutes last game so not sure I get that reference, Thompson has been playing over him for awhile. I don't mind Thompson getting minutes, but he has been playing the 4 and matching up against their 4 correct? When Daniels is in, he matches up against the 5, Thompson doesnt. I don't think a handful of extra minutes is going to make or break his development. I'd like to see us play the best lineup and get a few wins down the stretch.

I get what you are saying, I just don't think its as big of a deal as some are framing it to be.
 

GopherOhana said:
isn't this just typical MN basketball? raise hopes during the first half of the season then crash and burn the second half. In the past we could point to injuries. Wear&tear on the starters this year? easier for opponents to game plan with so few moving pieces for the gophers?
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It is. But it doesn't have to be. Just once I'd like a team that finishes stronger than it started.
 

Outsider said:
That was discussed before, he played 40 out of necessity. There were 3 starters out sick and Romberg has a broken hand.
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"This was discussed before". If that's the filter for a discussion point or topic there's not much left to discuss.
 



MinnGopher said:
It would help us today, because he isn't very good right now. Ogelle played like two minutes last game so not sure I get that reference, Thompson has been playing over him for awhile. I don't mind Thompson getting minutes, but he has been playing the 4 and matching up against their 4 correct? When Daniels is in, he matches up against the 5, Thompson doesnt. I don't think a handful of extra minutes is going to make or break his development. I'd like to see us play the best lineup and get a few wins down the stretch.

I get what you are saying, I just don't think its as big of a deal as some are framing it to be.
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He has been playing the 4 but that doesn't mean he can't play the 5. Our rallies against Iowa and Purdue were both with him at center. I'm not saying he's great, but he's mostly had a positive influence when in there. Daniels rarely does. He's good for 2-3 turnovers every game, even in limited minutes, offers little/nothing on offense and somehow manages to fumble away a rebound or two per game to top it off.
 

howeda7 said:
It is. But it doesn't have to be. Just once I'd like a team that finishes stronger than it started.
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I get what you are saying and I think we would all like to see the same thing. But expecting that from this particular group would have been pretty foolish given that they started the year severely short handed with 2 starters out for the season before the first game.

It wasn't hard to see struggles coming in the Big Ten season for this group, even during the solid start to the season.
 

howeda7 said:
He has been playing the 4 but that doesn't mean he can't play the 5. Our rallies against Iowa and Purdue were both with him at center. I'm not saying he's great, but he's mostly had a positive influence when in there. Daniels rarely does. He's good for 2-3 turnovers every game, even in limited minutes, offers little/nothing on offense and somehow manages to fumble away a rebound or two per game to top it off.
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You are discounting Daniels ability to play man d against a chunk of the B1G. We rotate our defense sets quite frequently. Thompson has been solid on offense for sure, but on defense its been tough for him to get boards (cant defend 5s, or a lot of 4's either). He averages 1.3 boards in 9.3 minutes, stretch that out to 18.5 and it would be 2.6, not great. We already suck at rebounding and we are going to put a less skilled offensive guy out there than one of our guards that can't board? No thank you.

There is too much of a focus on one aspect of a players game. Having him in there impacts it heavily on the defensive end and he cant board right now. Really impacts the team as a whole in a negative way.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Do you really think a couple wins would drastically shift the needle that much with any of those groups you mentioned?

Team played horrible last night, but for the most part this year anyone paying attention has seen an undermanned team go out and play really hard each night. Winning some games it shouldn't have and pushing good teams to the brink. On paper, our collection of players should get blown out most nights. The fact that hasn't been happening is a testament to the players and coaches and a good sign of what may be to come for this program when it has athletes and a roster that is better setup to compete.
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I personally do think that where you finish in the conference matters when it comes to public perception, yes. Put another way, would I negative recruit against the Gophers that they finished last? You bet I would.
 



Bad Gopher said:
I personally do think that where you finish in the conference matters when it comes to public perception, yes. Put another way, would I negative recruit against the Gophers that they finished last? You bet I would.
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I think any decent recruiter would follow that path. I also think any recruit that has done any homework on the Gophers program as a destination would know the situation the Gophers were in this year and understand it quite well.
 

MNVCGUY said:
No I honestly don't, because any recruit who is considering playing here knows that the majority of the players on this year's team won't be here next year.

And while fans dwell on single games or clusters of games, if I am a recruit I am looking at the whole body of work not just a disappointing loss to Nebraska or a 2nd half collapse against Iowa.

Any recruit who is swayed one way or the other by a single result or even a couple results isn't doing their homework because they should be basing their decision on the program as a whole and not just on what happens in a few games.

If the game last night takes Minnesota off your list of potential college destinations then you weren't really considering Minnesota as a destination in the first place.
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Quite black and white, wouldn't you say Ecosport?

AS Bad said above, coaches competing for the same kids will use the win/loss record as ammunition.
 

Chico Gopher said:
In regards to young players seeing game-time, there are a lot of great coaches who have the philosophy "When you show me you can do the things I need consistently in practice, that's when you get floor time". Obviously, none of us has been the practice regularly and had a chance to see exactly what BJ is demanding that Thompson and Thiam be able to do before getting game time. As Eco mentioned, throwing unprepared players into a game, doesn't really make that much difference in their development. There are a lot of coaches that feel the same way.

As I mentioned, haven't been to practice to actually see for ourselves, but what if TT is getting absolutely dominated in the paint by Curry and Daniels (who aren't even Honorable Mention caliber bigs)? What if the standard Johnson is looking for is "just be defensively competitive every day in practice and show that you're capable of stopping your teammates in the paint x-percentage of the time" and we'll try to work you in.

Again, not being at meetings and practices, but based on some of the things Johnson has said and his reactions to some questions from media, it seems likely that Ben has had many conversations with Thompson with the basic theme, "You're shooting for floor time next year. This year is about gaining size and practicing against other college players". If Thompson is truly serious about wanting to be a Gopher, pretty sure he knows and understands that he needs a lot of work in everything except maybe his 3-point shot to be ready to contribute. I'm guessing that Coach Johnson is being very careful with Thompsons minutes and trying very hard to only put him in situations in which he's fairly certain that Thompson can have a positive experience as opposed to putting him in situations in which (based what he's seen in practice every day) it's likely he'll get hammered. Good coaches also tend to keep that in mind as well, when doling out game time.

Now, if you are one of those who believe that the ONLY way to be ready to play in games is to actually play in games, then you'll probably disagree with this post.
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Could Thiam be any worse than Loewe looked at times, it's not effort, Loewe just doesn't have the quickness to defend some players, he looked like a deer caught in headlights, if you are stuck in the practice mode of evaluating against each other and game time changes all that what good is practice evaluations. Gopher guards just looked incompetent defensively because of the huge difference in physical abilities last night. Thiam probably would have looked like he got run over by a Mack truck if he had played but he can get better because he has the quickness to defend, unfortunately for guys like Loewe they will never be able too.
 

MNVCGUY said:
I get what you are saying and I think we would all like to see the same thing. But expecting that from this particular group would have been pretty foolish given that they started the year severely short handed with 2 starters out for the season before the first game.

It wasn't hard to see struggles coming in the Big Ten season for this group, even during the solid start to the season.
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i was thinking 4 wins tops after the concordia exhibition game. then, the team looked good and was thinking this might be the 69 Mets. now i just keep thinking about that cat poster with the "hang in there" caption
 

GopherPoke said:
I think any decent recruiter would follow that path. I also think any recruit that has done any homework on the Gophers program as a destination would know the situation the Gophers were in this year and understand it quite well.
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The only out of state recruits this team will land are kids whose other offers are not very good. All this other stuff you guys discuss is background noise.
 

swanyj said:
No one said to start him. Playing him 10-15 minutes is what is needed to get him ready for next year. Winning this year is not the goal. The goal is the future development of this team.
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ecoperson said:
We also need a bench. You can overcome the athletes too. You see it every March. But you need to have some bench. Our bench is far too much of a drop off from the starters... and that is saying something if our starters are already not as solid as other rosters. The fatigue factor has hit hard. Curry's injury still hasn't healed. Players will playing through flu and possibly COVID. Ramberg is now out. Starters legs are getting heavy!
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Bench,I believe Ben believes only TT will be a contributor on this team next season,and the rest may not even be on the team.
 
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Gophers_4life said:
Mental fatigue is a thing.
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Lots and lots of college players average around 35 minutes.
Antoine Davis Detroit Mercy
Buddy Boheim Syracuse
Jalen Pickett Penn State
Max Abmas Oral Roberts
Hunter Maldonado Wyoming
Drake Jeffries Wyoming
Aljami Durham Providence
Kehie Clark Virginia
Reece Beekman Virginia
Dane Goodman Notre Dame
etc, etc
And if I'm going to be honest, you could be 100% right, but I am still pissed off about how they showed up last night.
 
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fan of Ray Williams said:
Lots and lots of college players average around 35 minutes.
Antoine Davis Detroit Mercy
Buddy Boheim Syracuse
Jalen Pickett Penn State
Max Abmas Oral Roberts
Hunter Maldonado Wyoming
Drake Jeffries Wyoming
Aljami Durham Providence
Kehie Clark Virginia
Reece Beekman Virginia
Dane Goodman Notre Dame
etc, etc
And if I'm going to be honest, you could be 100% right, but I am still pissed off about how they showed up last night.
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Ray, what you should be pissed off about is the lack of coaching to counteract the overplay/pressure defense Neb played. Exact same defense Iowa used in second half. Also, Minnesota ran the same set whenever they were able to get into a set last night. This is very reminiscent of Pitinos offense in later part of last season. Teams started overplaying Carr and the perimeter players and we had no answer. I would be very concerned right now as a Gopher fan about our future. We need sophisticated coaching and we don't have it right now. Ben needs an assistant who can implement a better system.
 

Allshade said:
Ray, what you should be pissed off about is the lack of coaching to counteract the overplay/pressure defense Neb played. Exact same defense Iowa used in second half. Also, Minnesota ran the same set whenever they were able to get into a set last night. This is very reminiscent of Pitinos offense in later part of last season. Teams started overplaying Carr and the perimeter players and we had no answer. I would be very concerned right now as a Gopher fan about our future. We need sophisticated coaching and we don't have it right now. Ben needs an assistant who can implement a better system.
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Did Iowa figure out or just try something that no one had done to us all year ... and just happened to find our kryptonite?
 

Allshade said:
Ray, what you should be pissed off about is the lack of coaching to counteract the overplay/pressure defense Neb played. Exact same defense Iowa used in second half. Also, Minnesota ran the same set whenever they were able to get into a set last night. This is very reminiscent of Pitinos offense in later part of last season. Teams started overplaying Carr and the perimeter players and we had no answer. I would be very concerned right now as a Gopher fan about our future. We need sophisticated coaching and we don't have it right now. Ben needs an assistant who can implement a better system.
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When you are slow, have no one who can penetrate, and absolutely nothing inside..........there is literally nothing you can do.

Show me your offense that would work in this situation.
 



jovs said:
Could Thiam be any worse than Loewe looked at times, it's not effort, Loewe just doesn't have the quickness to defend some players, he looked like a deer caught in headlights, if you are stuck in the practice mode of evaluating against each other and game time changes all that what good is practice evaluations. Gopher guards just looked incompetent defensively because of the huge difference in physical abilities last night. Thiam probably would have looked like he got run over by a Mack truck if he had played but he can get better because he has the quickness to defend, unfortunately for guys like Loewe they will never be able too.
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Interestingly, Loewe was lauded as recently as a couple of weeks ago as a strong defender who was failing to bring us offense. He has increased his offense since but I think is still trying to get back to from the flu bug or whatever he had. Defense, as we all know, is a lot tougher than offense. It requires digging in to that last ounce of energy. There's a reason that there are not that many lock down defenders in college basketball.
 

ecoperson said:
Interestingly, Loewe was lauded as recently as a couple of weeks ago as a strong defender who was failing to bring us offense. He has increased his offense since but I think is still trying to get back to from the flu bug or whatever he had. Defense, as we all know, is a lot tougher than offense. It requires digging in to that last ounce of energy. There's a reason that there are not that many lock down defenders in college basketball.
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The other reason there are not many lock down defenders is that there are a lot of incredible offensive players.
 

I saw some things the other night that had nothing to do with fatigue or athleticism. There was some poor team defense and people out of place. Nebraska, not exactly the flyin' Illini of yore, had people wide open under the basket on inbounds plays and in other situations.
 


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