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Bob_Loblaw said:
Yes, by every statistical measure, he was way worse than Thompson. Statistically, Thompson is closer to All Big than Wilson is to Thompson.

Wilson, so far in his career, has been so much worse than Thompson it’s almost hard to even wrap your head around it.
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TT was abused in the post. You really don't think Wilson's size and athleticism will allow him to at least hold his own?
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Yes, by every statistical measure, he was way worse than Thompson. Statistically, Thompson is closer to All Big than Wilson is to Thompson.

Wilson, so far in his career, has been so much worse than Thompson it’s almost hard to even wrap your head around it.
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they are two very different types of players. Wilson is a post player. he will play under the basket and use his size to the best of his abilities. (which may not be much, but it's something)

Thompson was a stretch-4 who either could not or would not play like a traditional post player. If Thompson could have made shots, he would have had some value. as it is, Thompson is now with the Stetson Hatters, playing in a conference with Liberty and Kennesaw State.
 


MonikerSchmoniker45 said:
TT was abused in the post. You really don't think Wilson's size and athleticism will allow him to at least hold his own?
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Please don't misinterpret my post as saying TT was good. He wasn't. He was abused in the post.

That said, by every single statistical measure, he was WAY better than Wilson. I am assuming Wilson's role at his other stops was similar to the role we are discussing here (provide a big body in the post). He was awful at it. At least by every statistical measure, it's difficult to find a player as bad as Wilson. I've seen very few people, statistically, as bad as Wilson was.

I honestly don't think he could possibly be as bad as his stats are making him out to be but there is absolutely no reason to think he will be better than Thompson.

He is statistically a significantly worse defender, significantly worse offensive player, much worse impact being on the floor, and his numbers are skewed because he played against lesser competition. It's not just TT, he is significantly worse statistically than Charlie Daniels and Gaston Diedhiou as well.

If you think of how bad and unproductive Danny Ogele was at Minnesota (he played 41 minutes and went 1/9 shooting, 9 rebounds, 0 assists, and 2 TOs), if you extrapolated that stat line over 100 possessions - - - it would be almost twice as productive as Jack Wilson's numbers extrapolated over 100 possessions.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Please don't misinterpret my post as saying TT was good. He wasn't. He was abused in the post.

That said, by every single statistical measure, he was WAY better than Wilson. I am assuming Wilson's role at his other stops was similar to the role we are discussing here (provide a big body in the post). He was awful at it. At least by every statistical measure, it's difficult to find a player as bad as Wilson. I've seen very few people, statistically, as bad as Wilson was.

I honestly don't think he could possibly be as bad as his stats are making him out to be but there is absolutely no reason to think he will be better than Thompson.

He is statistically a significantly worse defender, significantly worse offensive player, much worse impact being on the floor, and his numbers are skewed because he played against lesser competition. It's not just TT, he is significantly worse statistically than Charlie Daniels and Gaston Diedhiou as well.

If you think of how bad and unproductive Danny Ogele was at Minnesota (he played 41 minutes and went 1/9 shooting, 9 rebounds, 0 assists, and 2 TOs), if you extrapolated that stat line over 100 possessions - - - it would be almost twice as productive as Jack Wilson's numbers extrapolated over 100 possessions.
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Basketball is a team game of individual people. Understanding and managing people isn’t for everyone. In fact, very few have those skills. They are for leaders while computers are for wannabes. Computers can tell you what you want hear. They don’t educate.
 


Bob_Loblaw said:
Please don't misinterpret my post as saying TT was good. He wasn't. He was abused in the post.

That said, by every single statistical measure, he was WAY better than Wilson. I am assuming Wilson's role at his other stops was similar to the role we are discussing here (provide a big body in the post). He was awful at it. At least by every statistical measure, it's difficult to find a player as bad as Wilson. I've seen very few people, statistically, as bad as Wilson was.

I honestly don't think he could possibly be as bad as his stats are making him out to be but there is absolutely no reason to think he will be better than Thompson.

He is statistically a significantly worse defender, significantly worse offensive player, much worse impact being on the floor, and his numbers are skewed because he played against lesser competition. It's not just TT, he is significantly worse statistically than Charlie Daniels and Gaston Diedhiou as well.

If you think of how bad and unproductive Danny Ogele was at Minnesota (he played 41 minutes and went 1/9 shooting, 9 rebounds, 0 assists, and 2 TOs), if you extrapolated that stat line over 100 possessions - - - it would be almost twice as productive as Jack Wilson's numbers extrapolated over 100 possessions.
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Ryan James had a write up about a month ago where he watched the limited film Wilson has and he had nothing but good things to say. Wouldn't have been my first choice but I think he'll be a much needed presence inside.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Please don't misinterpret my post as saying TT was good. He wasn't. He was abused in the post.

That said, by every single statistical measure, he was WAY better than Wilson. I am assuming Wilson's role at his other stops was similar to the role we are discussing here (provide a big body in the post). He was awful at it. At least by every statistical measure, it's difficult to find a player as bad as Wilson. I've seen very few people, statistically, as bad as Wilson was.

I honestly don't think he could possibly be as bad as his stats are making him out to be but there is absolutely no reason to think he will be better than Thompson.

He is statistically a significantly worse defender, significantly worse offensive player, much worse impact being on the floor, and his numbers are skewed because he played against lesser competition. It's not just TT, he is significantly worse statistically than Charlie Daniels and Gaston Diedhiou as well.

If you think of how bad and unproductive Danny Ogele was at Minnesota (he played 41 minutes and went 1/9 shooting, 9 rebounds, 0 assists, and 2 TOs), if you extrapolated that stat line over 100 possessions - - - it would be almost twice as productive as Jack Wilson's numbers extrapolated over 100 possessions.
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What published statistic measures a low post defense's ability to avoid being backed down from the high post to an under-the-basket post. I have never seen that quantified in basketball stats.
 

Rockraven said:
Cool! A repeat from last year. 2 win conference record. Let’s do that again.
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Yeah, you're probably correct. Playing Wilson at center 12 minutes per game instead of 2 minutes per game while one or two of Garcia, Ola-Joseph, Fox, Payne, Ihnin and others sit on the bench will make the difference. Good call. I am currently perusing NCAA Tournament sites to see which one I would prefer to go watch the Gophers play in. Omaha is drivable, maybe that's what I'll hope for.
 

G
Sane24 said:
What published statistic measures a low post defense's ability to avoid being backed down from the high post to an under-the-basket post. I have never seen that quantified in basketball stats.
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I don't think we can tell from basketball statistics how well Wilson executes his primary defensive objective, ie.,to avoid being backed down under the basket by the huge Big Ten low post offensive centers.
 



Sane24 said:
G

I don't think we can tell from basketball statistics how well Wilson executes his primary defensive objective, ie.,to avoid being backed down under the basket by the huge Big Ten low post offensive centers.
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You can’t tell from basketball statistics what we will get from Wilson. Your best indicator is how fast and hard the coaches picked him out of the portal and who they passed on.
 

Sane24 said:
What published statistic measures a low post defense's ability to avoid being backed down from the high post to an under-the-basket post. I have never seen that quantified in basketball stats.
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DRtg.

You don't need to break it down to that level of granularity, it just takes looking at his DRtg and using common sense. Do you think his defensive rating was so awful because he was guarding wings at Washington State and Idaho? Of course not, he was filling the same role and getting absolutely abused.
 

Sane24 said:
G

I don't think we can tell from basketball statistics how well Wilson executes his primary defensive objective, ie.,to avoid being backed down under the basket by the huge Big Ten low post offensive centers.
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You can tell how often his man scored on him and his impact on his team's defense.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
DRtg.

You don't need to break it down to that level of granularity, it just takes looking at his DRtg and using common sense. Do you think his defensive rating was so awful because he was guarding wings at Washington State and Idaho? Of course not, he was filling the same role and getting absolutely abused.
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He didn't play enough for any of those stats to be relevant.
 



MonikerSchmoniker45 said:
Ryan James had a write up about a month ago where he watched the limited film Wilson has and he had nothing but good things to say. Wouldn't have been my first choice but I think he'll be a much needed presence inside.
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That says more about Ryan James that it does anything.

His statistics are not just something you could squint and shake your head and think "these aren't that good". They are "punch you in the face" bad. They are significantly worse than Gaston, TT, and Charlie Daniels playing against much worse competition.

There are two options of what could have happened with Ryan James:
(1) He was able to comb through the 35 minutes of tape and see something impressive about Jack Wilson that his coaches didn't see (they only played him 35 minutes) and that somehow was directly opposed to an awful statistical profile;

OR

(2) Ryan James, like a lot of us, is a Gopher home and seeing the signing a bit through maroon-colored glasses.

At the end of the day, I don't think Ben ends up playing him much and this is more of an Ogele signing than it is a Samuels signing.
 


Johnnyboy18 said:
He didn't play enough for any of those stats to be relevant.
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Are you trying to use his lack of playing time as a defense? Historically terrible stats + lack of playing time + quit basketball to pursue football... = probably not a great basketball player. Guys this one isn't rocket science, he is literally a less accomplished basketball player than Dan Ogele.
 


Johnnyboy18 said:
He didn't play enough for any of those stats to be relevant.
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Yet, he's gonna come here and be productive? Lmao. If he plays more than mop up duty, we're in trouble. He's just not good at basketball. He's given us 5 years of evidence that this is the case.
 

What stat differentiates between being scored on:
1) by shooting over the top
2) by being driven around
3) by being pushed back under the basket

Preventing #3 is Wilson's only assignment so isolating his failures at #3 have to be separated from his failures at #1 and #2.
What statistic measures #3 separately from #1 and #2?
NONE THAT I AM AWARE OF!
 

Sane24 said:
What stat differentiates between being scored on:
1) by shooting over the top
2) by being driven around
3) by being pushed back under the basket

Preventing #3 is Wilson's only assignment so isolating his failures at #3 have to be separated from his failures at #1 and #2.
What statistic measures #3 separately from #1 and #2?
NONE THAT I AM AWARE OF!
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None, basic logic does. The guy is 7'0" and massive. It's just basic logic that he was attempting to play the same role at Idaho and Washington State that we want him to play here.

Do you think he was guarding wings at Idaho? Do you think he was defending guys on the perimeter at Washington State? God no. He was defending the post.

So now you're banking on the blind hope that he was somehow misused at Idaho and Washington State to an extent that his putrid stats are not applicable here.

I hope you're right.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
None, basic logic does. The guy is 7'0" and massive. It's just basic logic that he was attempting to play the same role at Idaho and Washington State that we want him to play here.

Do you think he was guarding wings at Idaho? Do you think he was defending guys on the perimeter at Washington State? God no. He was defending the post.

So now you're banking on the blind hope that he was somehow misused at Idaho and Washington State to an extent that his putrid stats are not applicable here.

I hope you're right.
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He may not have gotten defensive help preventing #1 and #2, which hurt his drtg.
If he gets that help by adjusting the defensive scheme, and he himself shuts down #3, the dtrg goes down. If he can't do that, then he will be as useless as you are speculating that he will be.
 

Sane24 said:
He may not have gotten defensive help preventing #1 and #2, which hurt his drtg.
If he gets that help by adjusting the defensive scheme, and he himself shuts down #3, the dtrg goes down. If he can't do that, then he will be as useless as you are speculating that he will be.
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I misspelled drtg!
Brutal!
 

What will effect Wilson here is how he fits with the other 4 Gophers on the floor. It’s a team game that takes 5 guys playing together. He committed on a visit and I trust Johnson and Thorson more than this entire board combined. Our computer BB analysts really give me a good chuckle. I would exclude SS from that list. Computer basketball is for those who couldn’t play the game.
 

GopherBlood666 said:
Are you trying to use his lack of playing time as a defense? Historically terrible stats + lack of playing time + quit basketball to pursue football... = probably not a great basketball player. Guys this one isn't rocket science, he is literally a less accomplished basketball player than Dan Ogele.
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Who's defending him? Bob has spent more time researching and writing about him than he will probably play this entire season.
 

Gophers7633 said:
Yet, he's gonna come here and be productive? Lmao. If he plays more than mop up duty, we're in trouble. He's just not good at basketball. He's given us 5 years of evidence that this is the case.
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Who said he's going to be productive?
 


Johnnyboy18 said:
Who said he's going to be productive?
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Those contending he will be our primary backup center. If he wins that role he will have to be at least somewhat productive with whatever time he sees. Plenty have defended Ben for the signing of Wilson. There was like a 1,000 post thread remember? It certainly was not all negative towards Wilson. Many think he will give us size and rebounding when spelling Payne. Rockraven is his biggest cheerleader which should probably throw red flags for all.
 

MonikerSchmoniker45 said:
Ryan James had a write up about a month ago where he watched the limited film Wilson has and he had nothing but good things to say. Wouldn't have been my first choice but I think he'll be a much needed presence inside.
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I wouldn't put too much stock in the RJ scouting report, guy isn't exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer...
 


Sane24 said:
G

I don't think we can tell from basketball statistics how well Wilson executes his primary defensive objective, ie.,to avoid being backed down under the basket by the huge Big Ten low post offensive centers.
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If the opposition gets to the spot first, there is no backing down necessary. Lots of variable to this discussion.
 

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