Who should be our next Coach?

[Gopherfan84]

I think Muss probably wears people out. He's the kind of guy who needs a change of scenery every couple years. Minnesota should be next on his list.

He won’t take a job up north. His wife wants to be in a warm climate if she has to deal with him gone.

 

[Gopherfan84]

Tim Miles has done a nice job at San Jose St this year. Richard Pitino beat him by 20 points and 30 points this year. Richard can coach...he needs some luck. New Mexxico has lost two games on last second shots with no time on the clock. Two more when House was injured and a couple jjust bad luck games. Pitino's team is fun to watch and I believe he is a far superior coach to Miles.

We strongly disagree here. SJSU is an awful program and the fact Miles has them here this fast is remarkable. He also had the most success a Nebraska coach has had in 30 years. Richard is very good at offenses. He knows numbers and analytics and getting match ups. Miles knows how to coach defense and develops a better team.

Miles like Pitino can be funny. Until one of them takes their team to the Sweet 16 I don't think either should be speculated upon as a possible Gopher coach.

Miles is a really good person. He used to be a riot and hang out with high school coaches during the state tournaments. He puts in time on building relationships. Pitino is funny in the media, but extremely introverted and kind of an ass when the camera isn’t on him. There is a reason pretty much everyone here didn’t like him locally. He wouldn’t put in work on the kids and use his allotted recruiting visits/calls/etc…

 

[Bad Gopher]

Coincidentally that’s the type of model/program development Ben follows more so than anyone else he’s coached under. Tim was fine being awful in year one and playing young guys. I’ve listened to him on multiple podcasts talk about it. Not saying Ben will turn it around, but the statement “judge me by year 4” is a line by Miles

I think that's fair, but what you're looking for isn't a model or a program. I can copy and paste that from a book or an article, but I have no idea how to execute it. What you're looking for is the right person, and what you're looking for at this stage of the program is signs of growth, improvement, execution of fundamentals. That tells you whether you have a good teacher and program builder. There have been few signs--before or since his hire--that indicate any of this. All we're left with is hope and faith in an abstract "program" that we don't have any idea of whether the guy knows how to execute.

 

[60's Guy]

We strongly disagree here. SJSU is an awful program and the fact Miles has them here this fast is remarkable. He also had the most success a Nebraska coach has had in 30 years. Richard is very good at offenses. He knows numbers and analytics and getting match ups. Miles knows how to coach defense and develops a better team.

Miles is a really good person. He used to be a riot and hang out with high school coaches during the state tournaments. He puts in time on building relationships. Pitino is funny in the media, but extremely introverted and kind of an ass when the camera isn’t on him. There is a reason pretty much everyone here didn’t like him locally. He wouldn’t put in work on the kids and use his allotted recruiting visits/calls/etc…

Well, if resurrecting a 333 NET ranking is remarkable…taking a 294 NET ranked team a little higher is pretty good too.

Bottom line I don’t like some of the things Miles does basketball wise. And ya, the same goes for Richard but I prefer Richard.

Like you said, we just see it differently.
And there is those head to head scores.

 

[60's Guy]

Coincidentally that’s the type of model/program development Ben follows more so than anyone else he’s coached under. Tim was fine being awful in year one and playing young guys. I’ve listened to him on multiple podcasts talk about it. Not saying Ben will turn it around, but the statement “judge me by year 4” is a line by Miles

And it is a self serving, pay me four years cop out.

 

[Gopherfan84]

And it is a self serving, pay me four years cop out.

Sure. That’s fine, but there are different methods to building rosters/programs. One can be slower, but imo more sustainable if it’s executed (used that term for Bad Gopher). If not executed obviously you get fired.
Taking some shortcuts can lead to some earlier success, but those rarely pan out or are sustainable. Pitino does this, but I think the fact he doesn’t build the program and create a positive locker room leads to his teams failing every February.

 

[EG#9]

Well, if resurrecting a 333 NET ranking is remarkable…taking a 294 NET ranked team a little higher is pretty good too.

Bottom line I don’t like some of the things Miles does basketball wise. And ya, the same goes for Richard but I prefer Richard.

Like you said, we just see it differently.
And there is those head to head scores.

I just checked this quickly so I could be off by a game, but I believe Miles was 6-3 against Pitino when he was at Nebraska. Miles had a better overall conference winning percentage at Nebraska than Pitino did at Minnesota as well which is about as damning a statistic as you could have. Neither of these guys will be a Big Ten head coach again, but Pitino was easily the worst Big Ten coach while he was here...and we replaced him with the new worst coach in the Big Ten. Pretty impressive stuff.

 

[60's Guy]

Sure. That’s fine, but there are different methods to building rosters/programs. One can be slower, but imo more sustainable if it’s executed (used that term for Bad Gopher). If not executed obviously you get fired.
Taking some shortcuts can lead to some earlier success, but those rarely pan out or are sustainable. Pitino does this, but I think the fact he doesn’t build the program and create a positive locker room leads to his teams failing every February.

For sure different paths are available to build teams. But, the landscape in the last couple years has dramatically changed. The portal is a brand new significant path to building teams with veteran players immediately eligible. Times have changed, guys had to sit a year. You gave scholarships to guys who couldn’t play until next year.
The traditional path of building with freshmen is at a big disadvantage today. Your opponents are older. The freshmen are likely to transfer before they become veterans…unless they both get playing time and win which is a tall task.
Yes, Pitino’s roster construction was a disaster at Minnesota. But Ben’s is very messed up as well.

 

[60's Guy]

I just checked this quickly so I could be off by a game, but I believe Miles was 6-3 against Pitino when he was at Nebraska. Miles had a better overall conference winning percentage at Nebraska than Pitino did at Minnesota as well which is about as damning a statistic as you could have. Neither of these guys will be a Big Ten head coach again, but Pitino was easily the worst Big Ten coach while he was here...and we replaced him with the new worst coach in the Big Ten. Pretty impressive stuff.

Yes, that is pretty bad. I know Pitino was very bad over season’s on paper. I just saw a lot of optimism to almost every Pitino team that always was sabotaged by bad luck…Carr not eligible, Reggie getting in trouble, Springs and Mason getting hurt, Matz and Murphy getting hurt, Liam and Gabe getting hurt, easily a list of a hundred unfortunate occurrences that derailed what might have been every year.
Way more than are normal. Wisconsin has had one injury mess up the end of last year and from the middle of this year. One injury..we had multiple things every year. Luck played a part with Pitino’s won loss record.
His roster construction didn’t help, yes ..but still.
Yes, the Gophers needed a new coach but Richard will have a season one day. Not sure Miles will. Happy for him if he does….no doubt great job this year!

 

[howeda7]

He won’t take a job up north. His wife wants to be in a warm climate if she has to deal with him gone.

He'll be making enough she can stay at the condo in Florida for the worst couple of months. I do not buy this excuse.

 

[Gopherfan84]

He'll be making enough she can stay at the condo in Florida for the worst couple of months. I do not buy this excuse.

Don’t buy it then. It’s an explanation not an excuse. Don’t know what else to tell you when it’s factual.

 

[Gopherfan84]

Yes, that is pretty bad. I know Pitino was very bad over season’s on paper. I just saw a lot of optimism to almost every Pitino team that always was sabotaged by bad luck…Carr not eligible, Reggie getting in trouble, Springs and Mason getting hurt, Matz and Murphy getting hurt, Liam and Gabe getting hurt, easily a list of a hundred unfortunate occurrences that derailed what might have been every year.
Way more than are normal. Wisconsin has had one injury mess up the end of last year and from the middle of this year. One injury..we had multiple things every year. Luck played a part with Pitino’s won loss record.
His roster construction didn’t help, yes ..but still.
Yes, the Gophers needed a new coach but Richard will have a season one day. Not sure Miles will. Happy for him if he does….no doubt great job this year!

You think Miles didn’t have some bad injury luck at Nebraska? Miles has a better MW record this year than Richard too. Tim has won more games at harder jobs than Pitino. What a hill to live on.

 

[Gopherfan84]

For sure different paths are available to build teams. But, the landscape in the last couple years has dramatically changed. The portal is a brand new significant path to building teams with veteran players immediately eligible. Times have changed, guys had to sit a year. You gave scholarships to guys who couldn’t play until next year.
The traditional path of building with freshmen is at a big disadvantage today. Your opponents are older. The freshmen are likely to transfer before they become veterans…unless they both get playing time and win which is a tall task.
Yes, Pitino’s roster construction was a disaster at Minnesota. But Ben’s is very messed up as well.

Tim and Ben use the portal. Tim did a ton at Nebraska too. The landscape certainly has changed and being young is mostly a kiss of death on a successful winning season unless you have one and dones (that also isn’t likely to be successful either).
I think building the way Ben is attempting to is the only shot we have until we get some boosters to buy kids with NIL deals. Until that gets figured out we are at a disadvantage either way so yeah it’s sucks to put your eggs in the basket we have, but I think it was mostly our only choice considering the current landscape.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

I think building the way Ben is attempting to is the only shot we have until we get some boosters to buy kids with NIL deals. Until that gets figured out we are at a disadvantage either way so yeah it’s sucks to put your eggs in the basket we have, but I think it was mostly our only choice considering the current landscape.

You continue to repeat this terrible excuse. We're never going to have boosters that buy kids with NIL. Neither does the majority of our competition. There are many coaches at comparable schools who are competitive and will make the NCAA tournament without boosters buying kids.

 

[BarnBurner]

Sure. That’s fine, but there are different methods to building rosters/programs. One can be slower, but imo more sustainable if it’s executed (used that term for Bad Gopher). If not executed obviously you get fired.
Taking some shortcuts can lead to some earlier success, but those rarely pan out or are sustainable. Pitino does this, but I think the fact he doesn’t build the program and create a positive locker room leads to his teams failing every February.

Define these "shortcuts" you have mentioned over and over. All of them.

 

[Gopherfan84]

You continue to repeat this terrible excuse. We're never going to have boosters that buy kids with NIL. Neither does the majority of our competition. There are many coaches at comparable schools who are competitive and will make the NCAA tournament without boosters buying kids.

We disagree on many. There are not a ton in the P6 that are successful. Luckily the few that are our neighbors (Iowa, Wisconsin) so there is a blueprint. How many transfers do those teams take?

 

[Gopherfan84]

Define these "shortcuts" you have mentioned over and over. All of them.

Taking a kid who doesn’t fit with the team culture and dynamics but is talented. Not allowing for development. There are teams that struggle at the start of every season because they are working on things offensively and defensively and don’t put a bandaid on it. Taking guys who are not good humans but are talented. Those would be some examples.

 

[Bad Gopher]

And it is a self serving, pay me four years cop out.

Haha, that reminds me of John McKay when he coached the Tampa Bay Bucs. He admitted that the five-year plan he had was because they gave him a five-year contract.

I can only speak from my own experience in my own profession: you hire me, and you'll see big improvement in our product right away. And Miles DID improve all the programs he's led from day one.

 

[CPTMidnight]

The real question is who will be the next coach AFTER the next coach.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

We disagree on many. There are not a ton in the P6 that are successful. Luckily the few that are our neighbors (Iowa, Wisconsin) so there is a blueprint. How many transfers do those teams take?

Purdue and Rutgers in the B1G as well. There's many more outside of the conference that do. Iowa's 2nd best player this year is a transfer. Both Iowa and Wisconsin win with underclassmen starting and typically being some of their best players. How are they able to recruit those players and keep them in the program?

NIL is a poor excuse and does not prevent Ben, or any Gopher coach from winning. Nor does NIL guarantee wins. There are schools that give out big NIL money in basketball and football and have really struggled.

 

[Gopherfan84]

Purdue and Rutgers in the B1G as well. There's many more outside of the conference that do. Iowa's 2nd best player this year is a transfer. Both Iowa and Wisconsin win with underclassmen starting and typically being some of their best players. How are they able to recruit those players and keep them in the program?

Rutgers and Purdue have more NIL in basketball than any of the three I mentioned. Who do you think is Iowas 2nd best player? Rebraca is nice, but Perkins is for sure better. McCaffery and Sandfort are too, but they just have split minutes with Murray.

NIL is a poor excuse and does not prevent Ben, or any Gopher coach from winning. Nor does NIL guarantee wins. There are schools that give out big NIL money in basketball and football and have really struggled.

It’s a truth that just makes the job harder. Never said it’s the only reason Ben is struggling. Never once did I say that’s the only reason why. I also gave examples of teams who do it besides not having a ton of NIL so I don’t think I was using it as an excuse that we can’t win here. It’s ok to admit that this job sucks and is really hard to win at. It doesn’t take away that Ben is god awful in your mind .

 

[Dave H]

Neither Tim Miles nor Richard Pitino are P6 coaches. They are at the level they should be at. They both had plenty of seasons to prove otherwise and didn't...

And I always laugh at the "Pitino was unlucky" theory...as if the team he put together wasn't part of the reason they were unlucky. Like the decisions he made during games had nothing to do with the struggles and losses. Like the chances he took didn't have an effect. He was a mediocre Big Ten coach and his record proved it.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Rutgers and Purdue have more NIL in basketball than any of the three I mentioned. Who do you think is Iowas 2nd best player? Rebraca is nice, but Perkins is for sure better. McCaffery and Sandfort are too, but they just have split minutes with Murray.

It’s a truth that just makes the job harder. Never said it’s the only reason Ben is struggling. Never once did I say that’s the only reason why. I also gave examples of teams who do it besides not having a ton of NIL so I don’t think I was using it as an excuse that we can’t win here. It’s ok to admit that this job sucks and is really hard to win at. It doesn’t take away that Ben is god awful in your mind .

If they do, which I don't really believe, it's marginally higher because of recent success. They don't have any more in football than we do, so why is that not an excuse for football? Either way they are comparable.

Rebraca is Iowa's second leading scorer. Winning at Minnesota is no more difficult than winning at any of those other schools.

 

[60's Guy]

We disagree on many. There are not a ton in the P6 that are successful. Luckily the few that are our neighbors (Iowa, Wisconsin) so there is a blueprint. How many transfers do those teams take?

They established their programs in a different era. They are sustaining programs. Ben chose to start over rather than retain any of Pitino's players...thereby Ben is building a new program. Wisconsin and Iowa are not. The rules changed. But Ben took an outdated path to do it with freshmen versus veteran players from the portal.
Why? Because he has a 5 year plan versus a now plan. So, he's trying to do it like Iowa and Wisconsin but it's a different time.
It could work but the odds are against it with the portal making your opponents veteran teams.
Bottom line: however you build your roster you need to be a better coach than your opponents...Ben has not shown he is this season.
Defense is a fundamental part of coaching....our effort and our defensive principles are not worthy of emulation. You mentioned Pitino had a flair for offense...Ben can't get Battle open looks, has Payne at the top of the circle and over the season has not had enough "I see what you did there, that was nice" offensive actions.

 

[cjbfbp]

Winning at Minnesota is no more difficult than winning at any of those other schools.

Theoretically, perhaps it shouldn't be much harder to win here than it is at Wisconsin, Iowa, and possibly even Purdue but the empirical results this century don't support that theory. I lean heavily towards empirical reasoning but I know you libertarians prefer the theoretical world.

 

[Gopherfan84]

They established their programs in a different era. They are sustaining programs. Ben chose to start over rather than retain any of Pitino's players...thereby Ben is building a new program. Wisconsin and Iowa are not. The rules changed. But Ben took an outdated path to do it with freshmen versus veteran players from the portal.
Why? Because he has a 5 year plan versus a now plan. So, he's trying to do it like Iowa and Wisconsin but it's a different time.

All freshman? He has 4 of them. The rest of his team was through the portal. What schools are building through the portal successfully without a strong NIL program (Penn State is all I can really think of)? How can we even say it’s outdated? NIL is still very new and in it inflated stage right now. It will come back to earth, but we still need to recruit and develop young players for sustainability.

It could work but the odds are against it with the portal making your opponents veteran teams.
Bottom line: however you build your roster you need to be a better coach than your opponents...Ben has not shown he is this season.
Defense is a fundamental part of coaching....our effort and our defensive principles are not worthy of emulation. You mentioned Pitino had a flair for offense...Ben can't get Battle open looks, has Payne at the top of the circle and over the season has not had enough "I see what you did there, that was nice" offensive actions.

Defensively we have improved, our guards are awful and that’s the killer. System and coverage is fine. We need our youngers to defend better. Those issues are on Ben. I’m fine blaming him for the offensive woes too. They have no one who penetrates and creates space for shooters like you mentioned.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Theoretically, perhaps it shouldn't be much harder to win here than it is at Wisconsin, Iowa, and possibly even Purdue but the empirical results this century don't support that theory. I lean heavily towards empirical reasoning but I know you libertarians prefer the theoretical world.

It's not theoretical, the Gophers have had a better program when they've had better coaches and vice versa with the other programs. But of course you'll try to drag politics into it when you don't have an argument.

 

[cjbfbp]

It's not theoretical, the Gophers have had a better program when they've had better coaches and vice versa with the other programs. But of course you'll try to drag politics into it when you don't have an argument.

I have an argument - the results of this century - which I think should be more persuasive than "once upon a time we were good when we had better coaches." Did you ever stop to think that not having better coaches could be as much of symptom of the contemporary state of the program as it is a cause?

I certainly don't believe that it's impossible to win here but it's not easy.

 

[leib0039]

For sure different paths are available to build teams. But, the landscape in the last couple years has dramatically changed. The portal is a brand new significant path to building teams with veteran players immediately eligible. Times have changed, guys had to sit a year. You gave scholarships to guys who couldn’t play until next year.
The traditional path of building with freshmen is at a big disadvantage today. Your opponents are older. The freshmen are likely to transfer before they become veterans…unless they both get playing time and win which is a tall task.
Yes, Pitino’s roster construction was a disaster at Minnesota. But Ben’s is very messed up as well.

Exactly right. I saw a stat today, of the consensus top 100 HS recruits, 17 are averaging 10+ppg. Of the top 100 transfers, 62 are averaging 10+. If you think the only way to "build" a program has to be with freshman year after year, you should see yourself out because you are so incredibly out of touch that you will never get it. This isn't 1980, the odds you see 1 player for 4 straight years at ANY school has to be less than 5%.

 

[cjbfbp]

Exactly right. I saw a stat today, of the consensus top 100 HS recruits, 17 are averaging 10+ppg. Of the top 100 transfers, 62 are averaging 10+. If you think the only way to "build" a program has to be with freshman year after year, you should see yourself out because you are so incredibly out of touch that you will never get it. This isn't 1980, the odds you see 1 player for 4 straight years at ANY school has to be less than 5%.

If true, that's a striking finding about Top 100 high school recruits. The only explanations I can think of are a combination of:

1) ratings often prizing size and athleticism over scoring skill; and

2) many of the Top 100 may play for elite preps where they share the minutes more throughout the lineup.

After all, Christie just scored something like 29 of his team's 58 points recently but he plays for a traditional high school. He's not even a top 100 player.