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Spottedmuskie said:
Makes sense. Pretty immature coming from Ihnen. Also, I can see why Dawson would be frustrated, but was he not the same pouty player just a few short years ago in two different jerseys?
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Dawson was pouty for having family issues at home and leaving NC mid-season?
 

So who accounts for NIL money? Do you just blindly send it in to the collective and have no idea who it goes to, how much each player gets, and how much goes into "expenses" such as managers salaries, travel expenses etc. who decides how it’s parceled out? For example BJ needs to keep Payne, and PJ wants to keep an offensive tackle. Who decides who gets what. The whole NIL thing leaves a lot to desire in accountability. A pig in a poke!
 

leib0039 said:
Hmm. So we agree years 1 and 2 were awful. Year 3 you describe as "middling" yet you assert that CBJ is a good coach. So does that mean the players HE recruited sucked? That would be on him I'd say. But sure make up excuses why we lose EVERY YEAR.

Some people might not like the negative/realist side but there is no way people actually think this is going well and he's a good coach right?
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Everybody wants to win every game, but there are other teams. When I said MN was a middling Big Ten team, I meant it as a positive, an improvement in the right direction. I called a 10-10 conf record in the pre-season as a ceiling that would be terrific. 9-11 is a good step. I think guys like you want a savior to come in and magically bring 5-star recruits, top transfers, and bring MN into the top 10 rankings. Yay us. Bring in the shiny object, and forget about all the other MAJOR issues that have historically come with it (EVERY TIME)-sanctions, cancelled games, arrests, vacated records, suspensions, ineligibilities. Its happened every time MN has brought in talent with lack of character. Lightning in a bottle, hope that maybe this is the year. Nothing sustainable. Minneapolis is not a city to turn a blind eye to that stuff, so you either make a deal with the devil, or you have faith in a process of building cleanly.
 

Go Gophs said:
They never have. And never will. Not at D1, and especially not a power 5. The U has never figured this out, thus the position they find themselves in right now. Yes, it's ugly, yes, it's hard to swallow, and yes, you have to jump in the mud with the pigs if you want to win.
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There isn't a single player who a coach here wanted to get admitted that would have been a transfer from another four-year university in the US, who was denied that by the U admissions department.

Whatever imagined thing you're disagreeing with, is a figment of someone's imagination.
 

SplitDecision said:
Everybody wants to win every game, but there are other teams. When I said MN was a middling Big Ten team, I meant it as a positive, an improvement in the right direction. I called a 10-10 conf record in the pre-season as a ceiling that would be terrific. 9-11 is a good step. I think guys like you want a savior to come in and magically bring 5-star recruits, top transfers, and bring MN into the top 10 rankings. Yay us. Bring in the shiny object, and forget about all the other MAJOR issues that have historically come with it (EVERY TIME)-sanctions, cancelled games, arrests, vacated records, suspensions, ineligibilities. Its happened every time MN has brought in talent with lack of character. Lightning in a bottle, hope that maybe this is the year. Nothing sustainable. Minneapolis is not a city to turn a blind eye to that stuff, so you either make a deal with the devil, or you have faith in a process of building cleanly.
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You didn't actually answer the question you just talked around it. I assert CBJ is an awful person to lead our program. My evidence is a terrible record, the fact he was brought in to keep local kids who are now leaving en masse and no real excitement from the fan base (see attendance). Those are all 100% facts. I see no facts you bring other than "well I like him so he's good!" Please indulge us on what we are missing out on. Elite offense? Nope elite defense? Nope elite recruiting? Nope so what is it?
 


SplitDecision said:
Everybody wants to win every game, but there are other teams. When I said MN was a middling Big Ten team, I meant it as a positive, an improvement in the right direction. I called a 10-10 conf record in the pre-season as a ceiling that would be terrific. 9-11 is a good step. I think guys like you want a savior to come in and magically bring 5-star recruits, top transfers, and bring MN into the top 10 rankings. Yay us. Bring in the shiny object, and forget about all the other MAJOR issues that have historically come with it (EVERY TIME)-sanctions, cancelled games, arrests, vacated records, suspensions, ineligibilities. Its happened every time MN has brought in talent with lack of character. Lightning in a bottle, hope that maybe this is the year. Nothing sustainable. Minneapolis is not a city to turn a blind eye to that stuff, so you either make a deal with the devil, or you have faith in a process of building cleanly.
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When engaging with some posters, keep in mind most of them were predicting we'd be worse this year than the prior year. They've had an agenda from the start and no evidence contrary to their initial analysis will change their mind.
 


MplsGopher said:
There isn't a single player who a coach here wanted to get admitted that would have been a transfer from another four-year university in the US, who was denied that by the U admissions department.

Whatever imagined thing you're disagreeing with, is a figment of someone's imagination.
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Sure there hasn't been. Anytime this program has had a chance to take the next step we find some kind of charge or infraction, etc to slit our own throat. It's been well documented and the reason the athletic department here never wins.
Got news for everyone. Half of the kids on winning rosters around the country don't do schoolwork, get away with whatever they want, and get paid. It's ugly, but it is what it is.
 

Go Gophs said:
Sure there hasn't been. Anytime this program has had a chance to take the next step we find some kind of charge or infraction, etc to slit our own throat. It's been well documented and the reason the athletic department here never wins.
Got news for everyone. Half of the kids on winning rosters around the country don't do schoolwork, get away with whatever they want, and get paid. It's ugly, but it is what it is.
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I'm just saying, this school is not Ivy League.

Within reason, BJ and Fleck can get anyone they want admitted here. We have remedial classes (ie lower than 1000 level). The NCAA rules are not that stringent.

Not talking about anything else. Just admissions
 



ecoperson said:
Why would a player talk about the positive culture of the team unless it were true? That's not something that young people readily whip out in conversation. The culture within an organization is not always visible to an outsider. A couple of two-hour games per week that we see is just a small part of the culture of a team. They spend their whole lives together.

As an undergrad in anthropology, we did ethnographies on numerous organizations or parts of organizations. They all have their own cultures. One would never see these on display unless one would be invited behind the scenes.

The culture within the MBB program could include such features as accountability, respect, truthfulness, academic integrity, support of teammates, growth in all aspects of life, etc., etc. Fleck has established a culture within the FB program that is very public. Johnson could have an even more impressive culture behind the scenes but he is not as much of a grandstander so we will never see it.

It is highly likely that the MBB players know a lot of FB players and the culture wihtin their program. If they tout the culture of the MBB program under Johnson, I am inclined to believe that they know what they're talking about and believe them.
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I understand what you're saying here, but I do think often times these players are prompted to answer questions directly by media and that's where you get their answers.

What do you think of Ben Johnson? How do you like him as leading this program into the future? No player is going to say "I don't like him or it's not a great culture" They give stereotypical answers.

I look more into results for insight into culture. Are players staying? Are we winning? Is the bench engaged? Things like that. I would say the culture has not been a successful one as far as what we're looking for from a D1 Big10 Basketball Program.
 

leib0039 said:
You didn't actually answer the question you just talked around it. I assert CBJ is an awful person to lead our program. My evidence is a terrible record, the fact he was brought in to keep local kids who are now leaving en masse and no real excitement from the fan base (see attendance). Those are all 100% facts. I see no facts you bring other than "well I like him so he's good!" Please indulge us on what we are missing out on. Elite offense? Nope elite defense? Nope elite recruiting? Nope so what is it?
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2-17, 9-11
 


Go Gophs said:
They never have. And never will. Not at D1, and especially not a power 5. The U has never figured this out, thus the position they find themselves in right now. Yes, it's ugly, yes, it's hard to swallow, and yes, you have to jump in the mud with the pigs if you want to win.
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Yeah I am not fine with selling out like that. If that is what you want just watch pro sports.
 



formerlybis said:
1. With Payne still in the fold, I didn't think MN would be able to attract a B10-starter quality big in the portal - there's just a limited supply of those guys to get more than one on a team these days. Frankly, even the ones that are B10-rotation quality are tough to come by. Now there's a real opportunity.
2. There's still 4 starter-quality players as of today, but opportunities to play big minutes/start at SF and C. That is good for the sales pitch to portalers. If Christie or Garcia leave, more opportunity. Given the NIL situation, it's the tier 2/3 guys that the deep-pocket programs aren't targeting that need to be mined for the diamonds in the rough (a la Hawkins).
3. Every college player at every level thinks they're going to the NBA. With NIL, that has been shifted to all of them thinking they're undercompensated. Payne will attract a suitor, IMO (again, supply and demand), but I doubt the others will. Perhaps they'll develop at a lower level and cash in when they transfer again - that's their best case scenario.
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So losing Payne is good because we might attract a Big Ten Level center that would not have come if he was here? That's your spin on this? I am all for the gambler's mentality but this seems like a stretch and is definitely not something where the odds are in our favor...

Who exactly do you have in mind? And tell me how I am supposed to not think they are fragile if they are not confident they can't beat out a guy who according to some around here is not really a big loss because he can't shoot and was a malcontent with a bad back? And why would he do it for a cheaper price than that player supposedly thinks he is going to get?
 

ecoperson said:
Why would a player talk about the positive culture of the team unless it were true? That's not something that young people readily whip out in conversation. The culture within an organization is not always visible to an outsider. A couple of two-hour games per week that we see is just a small part of the culture of a team. They spend their whole lives together.
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You are kidding right? Players are coached to say that stuff all the time...do you watch our football team? Do you honestly think that everyone on the team buys in 100%? Of course not but when asked they are going to say so its part of the gig.
 

howeda7 said:
What's the culture? A tenacious defense? No. A crisp, well-run offense? No. "Grit"?
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That's a good question. I think when we fans think about a good culture, we're thinking in terms of on-court measurables. I'm wondering if many coaches aren't talking more about things off the court like attending class, acting like adults, being good teammates and role models, positive attitude and being there for each other (both coaches and players) in off court, real life situations. It's possible that's what the good culture reference was about.
I know that some of the coaches I've talked to over the years have mentioned that having a good culture eventually shows up on the floor as better performance, but actually starts and is groomed off the court and in the locker room.
 

Dave H said:
So losing Payne is good because we might attract a Big Ten Level center that would not have come if he was here? That's your spin on this? I am all for the gambler's mentality but this seems like a stretch and is definitely not something where the odds are in our favor...

Who exactly do you have in mind? And tell me how I am supposed to not think they are fragile if they are not confident they can't beat out a guy who according to some around here is not really a big loss because he can't shoot and was a malcontent with a bad back? And why would he do it for a cheaper price than that player supposedly thinks he is going to get?
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Correct. I would venture a guess with 90% plus confidence that if there is a center out there in the portal who is better than Payne will be as a junior- he isn't coming here. Payne is an athletic, physical beast who has raw offensive skills and will improve.
If Ben can do better in the portal my hat is all the way off to him!
 

Go Gophs said:
Sure there hasn't been. Anytime this program has had a chance to take the next step we find some kind of charge or infraction, etc to slit our own throat. It's been well documented and the reason the athletic department here never wins.
Got news for everyone. Half of the kids on winning rosters around the country don't do schoolwork, get away with whatever they want, and get paid. It's ugly, but it is what it is.
Click to expand...
Got news for you...you aren't telling us anything we don't know. You are also telling us all we need to know about you...much of it not flattering but hey you do you!
 

Dave H said:
So losing Payne is good because we might attract a Big Ten Level center that would not have come if he was here? That's your spin on this? I am all for the gambler's mentality but this seems like a stretch and is definitely not something where the odds are in our favor...

Who exactly do you have in mind? And tell me how I am supposed to not think they are fragile if they are not confident they can't beat out a guy who according to some around here is not really a big loss because he can't shoot and was a malcontent with a bad back? And why would he do it for a cheaper price than that player supposedly thinks he is going to get?
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Yes, it is my spin. You have almost no chance to upgrade the team if people don't leave. The status quo wasn't that great. There are guys in the lower levels (that the rich schools bypass) that may come for less to prove themselves at this level. I have no idea who they are, I'm not in the business and that's CBJ and staff's job. It's less of a sure thing, but these type of players do hit - up to the staff to id them. They might leave again if they're successful, but that's the game now.
 

bga1 said:
Correct. I would venture a guess with 90% plus confidence that if there is a center out there in the portal who is better than Payne will be as a junior- he isn't coming here. Payne is an athletic, physical beast who has raw offensive skills and will improve.
If Ben can do better in the portal my hat is all the way off to him!
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Payne had issues in his game...but he was a beast out there and he gave lots of teams fits. I don't need him to shoot jumpers I need him to be friggin Shaq out there. (obviously not nearly as good)
 

formerlybis said:
Yes, it is my spin. You have almost no chance to upgrade the team if people don't leave. The status quo wasn't that great. There are guys in the lower levels (that the rich schools bypass) that may come for less to prove themselves at this level. I have no idea who they are, I'm not in the business and that's CBJ and staff's job. It's less of a sure thing, but these type of players do hit - up to the staff to id them. They might leave again if they're successful, but that's the game now.
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Well we should just dump the whole roster then! Imagine how much we would improve with 13 new guys! All we have to do is open the slots!
 

Go Gophs said:
Got news for everyone. Half of the kids on winning rosters around the country don't do schoolwork, get away with whatever they want, and get paid. It's ugly, but it is what it is.
Click to expand...

What exactly is your source for that assertion? Just because you believe something is true or that it should be true doesn't mean that it's actually true.
 

formerlybis said:
Yes, it is my spin. You have almost no chance to upgrade the team if people don't leave. The status quo wasn't that great. There are guys in the lower levels (that the rich schools bypass) that may come for less to prove themselves at this level. I have no idea who they are, I'm not in the business and that's CBJ and staff's job. It's less of a sure thing, but these type of players do hit - up to the staff to id them. They might leave again if they're successful, but that's the game now.
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I don't disagree that we need to improve through the portal...Payne was not one of the players we needed to get rid of to do it. Payne is a cornerstone piece...he isn't Carrington or JOJ.

And now it seems you are already hedging...saying "sometimes these players do hit". You made it seem that we could get a Big Ten Quality starter because he is gone. Anyone who is proven to be on that level isn't a gamble that needs to hit. The gamble is banking it can happen. And any player that wouldn't come here because of Payne isn't on that level anyways...
 

WriterGoph said:
RJ just confirmed that as far back as the Nebraska debacle he knew from team sources that Payne, Carrington, JOJ and Ihnen were causing issues in the locker room and pouting. Also said Dawson was growing increasingly frustrated with these guys as the year went on.

Also when Carrington and Payne gave quotes a couple weeks back about the importance of keeping the team together, they 100% knew they were already leaving.
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It was mentioned many times on this board throughout the second half of the season how bad JOJ's body language had been deteriorating. It certainly seems plausible a few more could have been in the mix.
 


DarthGopher said:
It was mentioned many times on this board throughout the second half of the season how bad JOJ's body language had been deteriorating. It certainly seems plausible a few more could have been in the mix.
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No worries, we are building a great culture featuring the closing of Minnesota borders.
 

WriterGoph said:
RJ just confirmed that as far back as the Nebraska debacle he knew from team sources that Payne, Carrington, JOJ and Ihnen were causing issues in the locker room and pouting. Also said Dawson was growing increasingly frustrated with these guys as the year went on.

Also when Carrington and Payne gave quotes a couple weeks back about the importance of keeping the team together, they 100% knew they were already leaving.
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So Ben had issues with the only player he could keep from Pitino's final team, and everyone from his first HS class. And that's why they're all now leaving. How convenient.

Ryan James also makes up a lot of shit to defend this terrible coach and program in order to sell subscriptions.

Even if I pretend this is true, then it's just another example of how the players Ben recruits, don't want to play for him long term. He couldn't get anyone to stay from Pitino's last team even though he had relationships with many of them. Couldn't get anyone to follow him from Xavier. And now several players from his first few classes, which includes mostly local kids, can't wait to get out with multiple years of eligibility despite the teams improvement.
 

Payne to Portal - Big bummer...good talent

JOJ to Portal - Yawn...see ya

Carrington to Portal - Yawn...see ya

Ihnen to Portal - Finally...chance to upgrade

Pettaway Commit - Excellent...FU, Whiskey

Kollack Commit - Excellent...Stacking QB's

Men's Hockey - Great win...beat BU next

Overall, not a bad day. Go Gophers!!!
 

SplitDecision said:
Everybody wants to win every game, but there are other teams. When I said MN was a middling Big Ten team, I meant it as a positive, an improvement in the right direction. I called a 10-10 conf record in the pre-season as a ceiling that would be terrific. 9-11 is a good step. I think guys like you want a savior to come in and magically bring 5-star recruits, top transfers, and bring MN into the top 10 rankings. Yay us. Bring in the shiny object, and forget about all the other MAJOR issues that have historically come with it (EVERY TIME)-sanctions, cancelled games, arrests, vacated records, suspensions, ineligibilities. Its happened every time MN has brought in talent with lack of character. Lightning in a bottle, hope that maybe this is the year. Nothing sustainable. Minneapolis is not a city to turn a blind eye to that stuff, so you either make a deal with the devil, or you have faith in a process of building cleanly.
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I'm with you on most of what you're saying, but there is a massive chasm between where we are now and some savior that will bring in 5 star recruits and top 10 rankings. That's a disingenuous argument. Look at PJ, he is a pretty popular coach and we have a pretty middle of the road program. The idea that criticism of this coach is somehow rooted in outlandish expectations is just simply not true.

We haven't been very good on the basketball court and almost all of our local recruits are gone. Now, I'm with you. We improved quite a bit this year and I think Ben deserves credit and another season, however, the fanbase here that disagrees with me would likely be pretty pumped up about a top 30 program and finishing in the top 5 in conference.
 

skiumah1 said:
I understand what you're saying here, but I do think often times these players are prompted to answer questions directly by media and that's where you get their answers.

What do you think of Ben Johnson? How do you like him as leading this program into the future? No player is going to say "I don't like him or it's not a great culture" They give stereotypical answers.

I look more into results for insight into culture. Are players staying? Are we winning? Is the bench engaged? Things like that. I would say the culture has not been a successful one as far as what we're looking for from a D1 Big10 Basketball Program.
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The players were unprompted when talking about the culture of the program and how much they care about the team and their teammates. This wasn't some sort of softball prompting from the media.

As for the results, this squad far exceeded expectations this year. The team has no quit- coming back from significant deficits numerous times and playing very tough in a few losses. Teams without a strong culture don't have that resiliency. The bench has been incredibly engaged from the sixth man down to the walk-ons. You can tell that they truly are happy about the team and the success of their teammates. (Ola-Joseph seems to have been the lone exception.)

Had NIL not reared its ugly head a couple years back, we would all be looking forward to taking more steps towards building a solid foundation for this program. Unfortunately, we have a few players who have opted to seek some more moolah so our forward progress has been stalled.
 

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