Strip sack was NOT Schlueter's fault, it was a bad play

[GoodasGold]

Schlueter got beat. Plain & simple. Doesn't make him a bad player, or bad person, he just got beat. It happens.

Idk. A play like that could very well make him a bad person. I’ll have to think on that

 

[GFBfan]

If Sanford knew the DE was going to race up the field like that, he wouldn't have made that playcall. Simple and true

Again with a strawman.
That’s like saying if Rossi knew that Day was going to run a formation and play the singled up Wilson with Swenson he wouldn’t have called the D he did. It’s second guessing after the fact and result.
on that pass play OsU was better because Wilson was better than Swenson. On the strip sack OSU was better because the DE was better than Sam.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

Idk. A play like that could very well make him a bad person. I’ll have to think on that

I've been around GH hole long enough to not have to think about it.

 

[MplsGopher]

OSU was better because the DE was better than Sam.

You just said that Schlueter handled him on several other times the play was called.

That would indicated that the DE was not better than Schlueter.

Hmmm ...

 

[GFBfan]

You just said that Schlueter handled him on several other times the play was called.

That would indicated that the DE was not better than Schlueter.

Hmmm ...

On that play he was. On other plays he wasn’t. That’s how games go. Sometimes one team/player is better than the other. Sometimes it happens for the whole game sometimes for a few plays and sometimes it goes back and forth with about a 50 50 split.

 

[Clark W. Griswold]

Hence why I have been correct -- the entire time -- to point out that this play call put Schlueter in a much more difficult position to make that block, than if for example it had been a drop back.

The game was against the #4 team in the country. Many players were put in difficult positions, but still expected to make plays. That's high level sports.

 

[MplsGopher]

Many players were put in difficult positions, but still expected to make plays.

Easy - not easy - difficult - very difficult - almost impossible.

Notice how it's actually a spectrum -- as life almost always is in almost everything -- and not at all a binary 0/100 no/yes situation?

 

[MplsGopher]

On that play he was.

OR, on that play he was put in a very difficult if not nearly impossible situation.

Sure, he (Schlueter) has some blame for failing to make a nearly impossible play. I'll give him like 5% blame. Same as I will give Morgan 5% for not feeling the pressure and trying to step up. Same as I'll give JMS for not staying on his block longer.

Remaining 85% is that it just happened to be the wrong play call for either their DC called something or that DE didn't play the run-fake and raced up field, and that ruined the play.

Indeed, it is quite possible for an OC to have what "should be" the perfect play dialed up, but it actually turns out to be the wrong call, at that moment.

 

[Clark W. Griswold]

Easy - not easy - difficult - very difficult - almost impossible.

Notice how it's actually a spectrum -- as life almost always is in almost everything -- and not at all a binary 0/100 no/yes situation?

I honestly have no idea what you are looking at. The LOS is the 29, Sam does not engage him until the 27 yard-line. At that point he is in good position with his head up and chest out. At the 26 yard line Sam starts to lean forward and by the 25 yard line his head is down and the de is hip to hip with him. He is beat. We don't have access to the end zone view so we can't look at the footwork. He either got pulled forward or his footwork was poor and he had to lean to stay engaged. Either way he was beat because of poor technique.

 

[MplsGopher]

I honestly have no idea what you are looking at. The LOS is the 29, Sam does not engage him until the 27 yard-line. At that point he is in good position with his head up and chest out. At the 26 yard line Sam starts to lean forward and by the 25 yard line his head is down and the de is hip to hip with him. He is beat. We don't have access to the end zone view so we can't look at the footwork. He either got pulled forward or his footwork was poor and he had to lean to stay engaged. Either way he was beat because of poor technique.

You are just flat out wrong and have no clue what you're talking about. Nor have you comprehended a single thing I've said in the thread.

Hint: point to the post where I said "Schlueter did not get beat". Go ahead. Point to it. I'll wait here.

 

[Clark W. Griswold]

You are just flat out wrong and have no clue what you're talking about. Nor have you comprehended a single thing I've said in the thread.

Hint: point to the post where I said "Schlueter did not get beat". Go ahead. Point to it. I'll wait here.

Sure thing, I think you should stick to chess. If you have really played and/or coached, you know the film doesn't lie. If your chest is in front of your toes and you're looking at the ground, your technique is bad and you are going to get beat.

 

[MplsGopher]

If your chest is in front of your toes and you're looking at the ground, your technique is bad and you are going to get beat.

Perhaps because you were put in a nearly impossible position to make the block, which wasn't your fault.

 

[GFBfan]

Perhaps because you were put in a nearly impossible position to make the block, which wasn't your fault.

He was put in the same exact position on other occasions in that same game and was able to handle the situation. He didn't on that one.
The situation wasn't impossible, he just got beat. It happens.

 

[MplsGopher]

He was put in the same exact position on other occasions

Nope.

What the DE did during the play is a huge part of the situation.

 

[Clark W. Griswold]

Perhaps because you were put in a nearly impossible position to make the block, which wasn't your fault.

Truly watch the play again, he was not beat immediately. In fact at one point (27 yard line) he was in good position to make the block.

 

[MplsGopher]

In fact at one point (27 yard line) he was in good position to make the block.

That you think this is correct, explains a lot.

You have formed your opinion, and nothing I say will change it. Please don't waste your time here any further.

 

[Clark W. Griswold]

Nope.

What the DE did during the play is a huge part of the situation.

So you expect the OC to know what stunts the dline will run before calling the play? Is the OC expected to know about every blitz before they happen?

I expect the OC to know stunt/blitz tendencies, but there is no way know when they will happen.

 

[MplsGopher]

So you expect the OC to know what stunts the dline will run before calling the play?

Of course not.

The OC not knowing that, doesn't magically transfer all of the blame onto a player that was given an excessively difficult assignment because of the call and how the defender played it.

 

[Clark W. Griswold]

That you think this is correct, explains a lot.

You have formed your opinion, and nothing I say will change it. Please don't waste your time here any further.

The fact that you think a one-on-one block is unreasonably difficult explains a lot.

 

[Clark W. Griswold]

Of course not.

The OC not knowing that, doesn't magically transfer all of the blame onto a player that was given an excessively difficult assignment because of the call and how the defender played it.

When I played and coached it was expected that the oline would read and react to the defense and make the necessary adjustments, even as the play was happening. Some blocks were harder than others, but a stunt or a blitz was never an excuse for poor technique.

 

[GFBfan]

Of course not.

The OC not knowing that, doesn't magically transfer all of the blame onto a player that was given an excessively difficult assignment because of the call and how the defender played it.

Nobody has said all the blame goes to Sam.
You want to put the blame on the call and the "impossible" situation that our OT was put in.
OSU had a better call than we did on that play. OSU had better players on that play.
With better technique our OT would have been able to make the block (it was not impossible) Tanner would have completed a long pass to D Wright, which would have flipped the script on the play. The call OSU made wouldn't have been better than ours AND our players would have been better than theirs...on that play.
Why is it so hard for you to see that and admit you are wrong in all aspects of your original post?
Play call wasn't wrong, play execution was and our OT's technique was not up to par on that play. Along with that Mo didn't slide or recognize soon enough, other OL didn't hold blocks, Tanner didn't sense the pressure and lost the ball and OSU scooped and scored.

 

[MplsGopher]

The fact that you think a one-on-one block is unreasonably difficult explains a lot.

False.

I think an unreasonably difficult one-one-one block is unreasonably difficult.


Surely you're not so much of a simpleton to think that all possible one-one-one blocks are exactly the same??

 

[MplsGopher]

poor technique.

You're just using lazy, circular reasoning to declare that he used poor technique since he got beat, and he therefore got beat because he used poor technique.

You can use textbook perfect technique and still get beat.

And you can be put in such a bad scenario that you have no choice but to use poor technique just to try to do something, and still succeed.

 

[MplsGopher]

Nobody has said all the blame goes to Sam.

You (and Clark) have said exactly this, several times. No need to flat out lie.

Every time you have said things like "he got beat and that's all there is to it" is exactly you putting all the blame on him.

You want to put the blame on the call

I don't blame Sanford for making that call.

I only blame the call in the sense that, if we had called a dropback, Schlueter makes the block. That's all I mean. That doesn't mean we should never run play action and it doesn't mean we should only run drop backs.

OSU had a better call than we did on that play.

Possibly. Or their DE just took a guess, and guessed right.

With better technique our OT would have been able to make the block (it was not impossible)

You're wrong here, Callahan agrees with me.

Didn't say it was impossible, just much more difficult to succeed than if it was a dropback.

Along with that Mo didn't slide or recognize soon enough

Agree that this was an important factor, maybe 20-25% factor, that he either couldn't or didn't see it fast enough, to drop the play fake and get over there to help faster.

 

[GFBfan]

You (and Clark) have said exactly this, several times. No need to flat out lie.

Every time you have said things like "he got beat and that's all there is to it" is exactly you putting all the blame on him.


I don't blame Sanford for making that call.

I only blame the call in the sense that, if we had called a dropback, Schlueter makes the block. That's all I mean. That doesn't mean we should never run play action and it doesn't mean we should only run drop backs.


Possibly. Or their DE just took a guess, and guessed right.


You're wrong here, Callahan agrees with me.

Didn't say it was impossible, just much more difficult to succeed than if it was a dropback.


Agree that this was an important factor, maybe 20-25% factor, that he either couldn't or didn't see it fast enough, to drop the play fake and get over there to help faster.

saying if he would have called a drop back it wouldn’t have happened the way it did is ridiculous. It’s questioning the play after knowing the result. It’s the same thing I said about the Swenson play.

Show me where Callahan agrees with you. Offer proof not opinion.

as I have said multiple times Schlueter was one part of the problem on that play. Mo, Tanner the rest of the OL were also part of the problem. The OSU defense was also part of the problem. The play call was not and I’m no Sanford apologist. The call he made was a good one, we didn’t execute very well and it starts with the OL through to the RB and QB.

saying the DE guessed shows your limited knowledge of the game. You really think a player is given free reign to do what he wants on a given play. All 11 get a defensive call and have a responsibility. If they don't take care of their responsibility they don’t play much as the team will find someone who will.

 

[Clark W. Griswold]

You're just using lazy, circular reasoning to declare that he used poor technique since he got beat, and he therefore got beat because he used poor technique.

You can use textbook perfect technique and still get beat.

And you can be put in such a bad scenario that you have no choice but to use poor technique just to try to do something, and still succeed.

Actually I laid out exactly where his technique became poor. At the 27 yard line he was in good position. At the 26 he starts to lean. At the 25 he is over extended and beat. The film doesn't lie. His bad technique led to the sack.

You clearly read an article or book about oline play so now you think you're an expert, but again, the film doesn't lie.

 

[Clark W. Griswold]

False.

I think an unreasonably difficult one-one-one block is unreasonably difficult.


Surely you're not so much of a simpleton to think that all possible one-one-one blocks are exactly the same??

Simpleton? Obviously we have different definitions of difficult. That is not an unreasonable block. It's D1 not middle school.

 

[haef7]

Of course not.

The OC not knowing that, doesn't magically transfer all of the blame onto a player that was given an excessively difficult assignment because of the call and how the defender played it.

I've been reading this board off and on for 13+ years. I never learned names or anything.

I've now learned that you're just an asshat. Who talks down to people, and is an arrogant prick.

Who is wrong in this instance.

 

[Triple D]

I've been reading this board off and on for 13+ years. I never learned names or anything.

I've now learned that you're just an asshat. Who talks down to people, and is an arrogant prick.

Who is wrong in this instance.

Is Minneapolis Gopher formerly dpodoll?

 

[MplsGopher]

saying if he would have called a drop back it wouldn’t have happened the way it did is ridiculous.

Not at all. How many strip sacks did he (the DE) get on dropbacks?

It's a difference in footwork, that can (vs can't) handle a DE charging hard upfield. Really that simple.

Show me where Callahan agrees with you.

He would. Good enough for me.

Not like anything you say is close to changing my mind, nor anything I say changing yours. So we're just going around in circles.

The play call was not

This is the biggest part of your problem, that you can't get past.

You're acting like I'm saying Sanford F'ed up by making that call, when that's true at all. As I've said multiple times: I love play action, and I hope we call it a bunch.

Merely pointing out the objectively correct fact that, that call, since it was made, put Schlueter at a huge disadvantage to handle that hard upfield rush.

If you can't comprehend this, then there's just nothing more to talk about.

You really think a player is given free reign to do what he wants on a given play.

Players are given options all the time.

Easily could have been something like the coach telling him "hey if you see them giving a run look in 11 personnel, but you think it's play action on a 2nd or 3rd and long, feel free to rush up field and don't play the run".