Still have faith in Pitino?

I suspect there's a some middle aged men here who can't stand that some snot-nosed kid of 30 got this job 'based on his name'. Bet you've seen it happen before and it bugs the hell out of you.

Well, perhaps that upsets our sense of propriety somewhat but I don't think that's the primary reason. Most coaches hired in the Big Ten are veterans who have paid their dues, have taken their lumps, and have a considerable amount of trial and error in their backgrounds. Most of them also have a record of accomplishment. In short, Big Ten coaches typically have learned a lot before they arrived here.

The closest to Pitino in the Big Ten ranks would be Chris Collins, also the son of a famous coach, but Collins is 40, has been assistant coaching since the late nineties, was with Duke for over a decade, and also was an accomplished player in his own right (former IL Mr. Basketball who played at Duke). I think it is also fair to say that Collins enters a program with lower overall expectations of performance.

Pitino has little time as a coach (even as an assistant) and to my knowledge did not play the game at any advanced level. The last factor could have some relevance in how he and the players think about each other.
 

Hollins was much better last year than Morris has been this year.

And Michael Jordan was much better 20 years ago than Andre Hollins is this year. Not sure what that proves, but I'm trying to follow along.
 

Even though the expectations at Northwestern are lower than at Minnesota (as cjbfbp pointed out), Collins is the guy I'll be most inclined to compare Pitino because they came in at the same time. Have to admit, I wasn't a fan of Collins at Duke but have been impressed with what he's done at Northwestern so far. Collins' team got better last year after he figured out they weren't going to win (m)any games by pidgeon-holing players recruited to play Bill Carmody's style to play Collins' preferred style. He adapted to his players, and even said mid-stream that he wasn't being fair to his seniors (read: Drew Crawford) if he wasn't putting them into the best position to win NOW.

It'll be interesting to see who gets to the NCAA tourney first (if at all), Collins' Wildcats or Pitino's Gophers. It's no longer the shoo-in (for the Gophers) I thought it would be after the Gophers' brief flirtation with a NCAA tourney bid last season. Of course, if Collins gets Northwestern to the tourney in short order, he likely won't be long for Evanston. That would be a Herculean accomplishment.
 


Fair point.

I was thinking more about the ugly 7-6 non-conference, 0-3 Big Ten start that got turned around to 5-5 at one point. Forgot about the rough finish, though I think a 6-12 mark with a Big Ten Tournament win was a solid first season, all things considered. But you are correct, rough finish.
 


The team has regressed this year. He has yet to recruit a skilled 3,4 or 5. His teams play like they don't have a fuggin clue how to play basketball. Why hasn't he brought in any skill yet, either through high school recruits or transfers. Mason will be a nice player, but everyone else he's brought in so far is crap. The 2 African guys are major projects and depth players. Morris is just crap, you can't win with guys like that, yet Pitino thought he could? Another recruiting mistake. Even McNeil, he brought in a 6'3" point guard to play small forward for you? Really? He has mismanaged the roster so far and while he has a couple nice guards coming in, both are undersized and won't be able to create their own shots. So who are the scoring threats inside? The 2016 recruits are the earliest we can hope to get skilled wings in here. Will he have lost the fan base by then? This team will be equally crappy next year. Blow it the fuc& up.....

You make your point so well.
 

I suspect there's a some middle aged men here who can't stand that some snot-nosed kid of 30 got this job 'based on his name'. Bet you've seen it happen before and it bugs the hell out of you.

Kill looked like a disaster. Now he's not. Let things unfold, and support the team through this - or give up if thats who you are.

I suspect this is true as well. Plus, it's a bit amusing to see one of the few people who defends the Brewster hire rip Pitino for lack of experience. It's true that most coaches in the Power 6 have more experience than Richard did. But his career path is not that different from his dad's or Billy Donovan's, his two biggest mentors. Would he be materially more prepared for this job if he'd stayed at FIU 2 or 3 years? I'd say no.
 

You've never seen a lane violation by the FT shooter? Ever?

Also, when was Kill a disaster? Most people who know anything have never doubted the competency of Kill, his system and his staff. The near win at USC followed by a home loss to New Mexico State, and a loss to those insecure small fish from Fargo in year one was tough, but not unexpected.

I suppose she is writing about the Epilepsy, so maybe Jim Souhan is posting under the name "Moonlight".

As far as Pitino, who knows if he can coach much, but if he can get any talent here and keep it around, he will be OK. This is not a Todd Lickliter or Brewster type situation, yet.
 

I'm not a tubby guy; he was dead weight, needed to go.

Just look at this f'ing circus we're trotting out there. This is a mess, and the mismanaged roster is going to ensure we stay at this level for a couple more years, then HOPEFULLY Pitino can bring in better players, but can he?

His recruiting has been blah, how about player development? Who on this team has gotten better under Pitino? Walker? I guess, but mainly because he use to be obese, now he's not. He still as average as ever. Hollins use to be good, now he's as average as can be.

How about in game coaching? The only thoughts I have in my head are us losing games by making stupid decisions, all the time. Are these guys being coached? Or has he just recruited dumb basketball players? Either way, it's troubling.

He has the last name, sure; but is he really ready for this? Woody May have went to the billy Donovan well one too many times. This disaster will keep getting worse before it gets better. How you gonna convince 2016 recruits to come here when you can't even make the NIt?

Our only significant roster loss from last year was Austin Hollins, and that squad set a school record for wins under Pitino. I think most of us expected that this year would be a significant step up, and most of us are probably disappointed that it has not been, but we could have easily won five of the conference games we lost. Even if we had won three of those five games, we would be 4 and 3 in conference play at this point of the season, and its unlikely that we would be having this conversation. I think its way too early to panic. Just hitting our free throws would likely turn this thing around, and I'm sure that Pitino is working on doing just that, among other things. I think he has shown remarkable poise and savvy for a young coach his age, and in his father and Billy Donovan, he has a couple of pretty savvy ombudsmen. I remain excited for the future.
 



I suspect there's a some middle aged men here who can't stand that some snot-nosed kid of 30 got this job 'based on his name'. Bet you've seen it happen before and it bugs the hell out of you.

Fortunately, I'm not middle aged, or I might take offense. No, I'm in my mid 70s, and I think Pitino has a great future ahead of him in coaching.
 

Have to admit, I wasn't a fan of Collins at Duke but have been impressed with what he's done at Northwestern so far. Collins' team got better last year after he figured out they weren't going to win (m)any games by pidgeon-holing players recruited to play Bill Carmody's style to play Collins' preferred style. He adapted to his players, and even said mid-stream that he wasn't being fair to his seniors (read: Drew Crawford) if he wasn't putting them into the best position to win NOW.

Yeah, Collins is a good comp. I think I said this on another thread, but it seems like we could be doing better in the PRESENT if we were playing a more deliberate style on offense as well as defense, but Pitino is trying to build for the FUTURE by implementing his style (or close to it) despite our present players' limitations. I'm not about to say that's wrong, but I hope it eventually works. Right now all I see on defense is perimeter fouls adding up quickly, a few steals, but even more easy baskets by the opponent; and on offense I see bushels of turnovers by guys that seem to be pressing and not relaxed.
 

Also, when was Kill a disaster? Most people who know anything have never doubted the competency of Kill, his system and his staff. The near win at USC followed by a home loss to New Mexico State, and a loss to those insecure small fish from Fargo in year one was tough, but not unexpected.

I suppose she is writing about the Epilepsy, so maybe Jim Souhan is posting under the name "Moonlight".

As far as Pitino, who knows if he can coach much, but if he can get any talent here and keep it around, he will be OK. This is not a Todd Lickliter or Brewster type situation, yet.

Kill's first season was a disappointment by my standards (even for a first year head coach taking over at train wreck). However, what he has done since then is never finish with a worse season than the one before it. That is one thing that is important for Pitino to do. Improve.
 

I still have faith, but the honeymoon period is over. I'll allow this year to be rock bottom, but he needs to start a Jerry like progression up the standings starting next year.
 



Also, when was Kill a disaster? Most people who know anything have never doubted the competency of Kill, his system and his staff. The near win at USC followed by a home loss to New Mexico State, and a loss to those insecure small fish from Fargo in year one was tough, but not unexpected.

I suppose she is writing about the Epilepsy, so maybe Jim Souhan is posting under the name "Moonlight".

As far as Pitino, who knows if he can coach much, but if he can get any talent here and keep it around, he will be OK. This is not a Todd Lickliter or Brewster type situation, yet.
Fair point on Kill - I wasn't initially impressed but I'm not too interested in football so I'll refrain from future comments on it - excepting that I bet I could find a Gopherhole thread similar to this on him. Its the nature of the beast.
 


Remember, the OP has openly admitted that he hated the hire from the beginning. Doesn't mean his opinion is invalid, but just that he was going to look at the negative side no matter what is happening. I'm extremely disappointed in this season just like everyone else, but it is way too early to pull the plug. Whether you like it or not, Pitino will be here for at least another two years in my opinion.

He keeps mentioning the undersized guards. How quickly he forgets last year's UConn team with at 6'1" and 6'0" backcourt. Not saying we are going to turn into last year's UConn team but it certainly can be done with a small backcourt. In fact, I think UConn's starting five last year was 6'0", 6'1", 6'6", 6'7", and 6'9".

As for Tubby, yes we had a good year his last year but I also think the future did not look very good. If Tubby was still coaching last year, Andre Hollins is probably still running the point. Alex Foster and Alvin Ellis would be sophomores. Those two are averaging a combined 16 minutes a game and 3 points with Texas Tech and Michigan St. Looks like we especially lucked out on Foster. In the end it doesn't really matter though. Kinda pointless to continue to argue about it all.
 

The team has regressed this year. He has yet to recruit a skilled 3,4 or 5. His teams play like they don't have a fuggin clue how to play basketball. Why hasn't he brought in any skill yet, either through high school recruits or transfers. Mason will be a nice player, but everyone else he's brought in so far is crap. The 2 African guys are major projects and depth players. Morris is just crap, you can't win with guys like that, yet Pitino thought he could? Another recruiting mistake. Even McNeil, he brought in a 6'3" point guard to play small forward for you? Really? He has mismanaged the roster so far and while he has a couple nice guards coming in, both are undersized and won't be able to create their own shots. So who are the scoring threats inside? The 2016 recruits are the earliest we can hope to get skilled wings in here. Will he have lost the fan base by then? This team will be equally crappy next year. Blow it the fuc& up.....

Yeah, you also have said 2018 as the earliest year the gophers will have a competent passing game in football too. :D
 

I still have faith, but the honeymoon period is over. I'll allow this year to be rock bottom, but he needs to start a Jerry like progression up the standings starting next year.
I was all for the coaching change, and I don't mind losing in the short term, but that game last was god awful. Nebraska was begging to get beat and we didn't have one guy..not one who stepped up. They (the gophers) looked like they were playing very tight, and that's on the coaching staff.
 

And Michael Jordan was much better 20 years ago than Andre Hollins is this year. Not sure what that proves, but I'm trying to follow along.

Sorry. A few pages ago somebody was saying Austin Hollis last year wasn't better than Morris this year. I should have quoted the post.
 

This is the dumbest thread I've read in quite some time. Lots of laughs at least.
 


Here's what concerns me. You have a team that won the NIT (for what that's worth), and has 4 returning starters. I certainly thought that the Gophs should show improvement over last year. Instead - at least by the "I test" - I see a team that seems to be taking a step backwards. The Gophs have been very inconsistent, and the thing that bothers me is the late-game problems. Again, we're talking about a team with 4 returning starters, and 2 senior guards - and we keep seeing late-game problems.

Now, some of that falls on the players, but some of it also has to fall on the coaches. The coaches work with the players in practice, and (presumably) draw up plays and sets in the huddle - and what they're doing is not working in crunch time.

I'm willing to give Pitino some slack, but I also expect to see some progress.

I am NOT saying Pitino is a bust - I'm just saying that I see the program seemingly taking a step backwards this year, and I'm surprised.
 

How bad do we need a 4 next year? Wouldn't it be nice to have illikainen coming in !!! Too bad we decided to take a flier on an average shooting guard with behavioral issues instead. Mismanagement!!! He's made soooo many errors with this roster he'll never get out from under it! Book it (and someone said OP was not on board with initial hire; I was actually, but too many mistakes for me to still be drinking the Pitino kool-aid).
 

How bad do we need a 4 next year? Wouldn't it be nice to have illikainen coming in !!! Too bad we decided to take a flier on an average shooting guard with behavioral issues instead. Mismanagement!!! He's made soooo many errors with this roster he'll never get out from under it! Book it (and someone said OP was not on board with initial hire; I was actually, but too many mistakes for me to still be drinking the Pitino kool-aid).

Big All had all the time in the world to commit. Pitino met with him before nwonkwoh committed. I assume that meeting he gave Alex opportunity. Alex passed he had three years to make up his mind. With that said nwonkeoh is a top 150 guy. Can play the 4 or 5. He will help right away
 

How bad do we need a 4 next year? Wouldn't it be nice to have illikainen coming in !!! Too bad we decided to take a flier on an average shooting guard with behavioral issues instead. Mismanagement!!! He's made soooo many errors with this roster he'll never get out from under it! Book it (and someone said OP was not on board with initial hire; I was actually, but too many mistakes for me to still be drinking the Pitino kool-aid).

That's the problem with your posts. Just because people disagree with your doom and gloom attitude doesn't mean they're "drinking the kool-aid." It is possible to be disappointed in how things have gone, and at the same time, think there is still a chance he can still get the job done.

I apologize, I thought you were the one who posted a week or two ago that we were, at best, going to the NIT the next three years and that you hated the hire from the beginning because of his lack of experience. My mistake.

I can't believe there are people who are still trying to blame Pitino for Illikainen. If he really wanted to be a Gopher, he'd be one.
 

Here's what concerns me. You have a team that won the NIT (for what that's worth), and has 4 returning starters. I certainly thought that the Gophs should show improvement over last year. Instead - at least by the "I test" - I see a team that seems to be taking a step backwards. The Gophs have been very inconsistent, and the thing that bothers me is the late-game problems. Again, we're talking about a team with 4 returning starters, and 2 senior guards - and we keep seeing late-game problems.

Now, some of that falls on the players, but some of it also has to fall on the coaches. The coaches work with the players in practice, and (presumably) draw up plays and sets in the huddle - and what they're doing is not working in crunch time.

I'm willing to give Pitino some slack, but I also expect to see some progress.

I am NOT saying Pitino is a bust - I'm just saying that I see the program seemingly taking a step backwards this year, and I'm surprised.

I think this is a very fair post. I've been encouraged by the Gophers ability to get a good shot in late game situations, but nobody is knocking them down. Nothing Pitino could do about Andre literally handing the ball to the Michigan defender when the Gophers had a chance to win or tie and there's was nothing he could do about Joey missing a wide open 3 and Nate and Elliott missing 1-1's late against Iowa or Nate missing against Ohio State or all the missed free throws and open looks at 3 the Gophers missed late against Nebraska. If these guys played with the composure that's expected of a B1G team that (initially) started 5 upperclassmen, we'd be 5-2 right now and bemoaning the one win we choked away (pick one of the 5 losses).

That said, it's on Pitino that this group doesn't rebound or defend at a level above atrocious. It's on Pitino that the team kept feeding Walker in the post last night when it was clear it wasn't working. It's on Pitino that his guys came out and gave zero effort in the first half against Iowa.

Most glaringly, it's on Pitino that he didn't think he needed to move heaven and earth to find a PF to start over King for this season or to find another guard who was eligible to play immediately. I think most of us knew Joey King was not the answer at the 4 and that having just 5 eligible players for the 1-3 spots on the floor was a very dangerous proposition. As it turns out, Joey just can't rebound at this level as a 4 and he certainly can't be asked to guard 3's on the perimeter. McNeil was lost for the season and now when "Bad Squirrel" shows up or Andre can't throw it in the ocean, Pitino has no other option but to keep putting them out there.
 

Big All had all the time in the world to commit. Pitino met with him before nwonkwoh committed. I assume that meeting he gave Alex opportunity. Alex passed he had three years to make up his mind. With that said nwonkeoh is a top 150 guy. Can play the 4 or 5. He will help right away

That may be, but what are we going to call him? I can't get my tongue around that.
 


I wouldn't have fired Tubby Smith in the first place, particularly not after the school's best season in 23 years. But putting that aside, I wouldn't have hired a 30-year-old with 1 year of head coaching experience to be a head coach in the Big Ten. But putting that aside, now that he's here, if he doesn't make the Tournament by the end of 2015-16, he should be gone in my book. You don't fire a coach with 3 tournament appearances in 6 years (never before done at this school) and Tournament appearances in his 2nd and 3rd years to keep a coach who can't make one (let alone two) in 3 years. People hated Tubby so much and wanted him gone so badly that they couldn't see how firing him set his successor up for unrealistic expectations.

Without regard to the Pitino hire, Smith needed to go. And the same notion is quickly becoming apparent to TT fans as he is dragging them through the same mill he operated here. I'm in wait and see mode about Pitino because it's still early and he's young enough to learn and adapt. His predecessor was one of the most stubborn, "Don't tell me" coaches I've seen in any sport.
 

I know you will not agree but...

The Big Ten is not the place for on the job training.

Tubby deserved to be fired. He never had a winning record in the Big Ten. He is the reason Pitino is in the crisis he is in.
Tubby was going to have his worst team ever here last year. He did not leave any sort of foundation in place. Pitino transformed Mo. No way that happens with Tubby. Pitino took a point guard no one wanted in April and helped him become team MVP. Tubby doesn't have either guy. Say what you will about Joey King, we are better with him than w/o him. Tubby wouldn't have had him.

Tubby has not recruited a difference maker in the last four years for sure. Our season would be different with McNeil. He was
our best perimeter defender. He could shut a scorer down. No one else can. He would have added 5 to 8 points a game. Those two things are the difference in winning the games we've lost. Martin was a shock to even his teammates. Yes, Pitino is responsible for both guys but come on...there are no predictors for either action.

Pitino absolutely can coach the game better than Tubby. I believe he can recruit better but he absolutely does need next years guys to
be major improvements. On paper, they are.

Major difference with tubby and Pam situations...Pam had the most talent she ever had with two All big Ten players and Wagner coming.
Pitino inherited the worst personnel in a long time that the gophers have had.

Pitino is an upgrade. The situation is a short term regression. Not the coach. Pitino is a better coach in 2015 than Tubby is. Not talking teams, personnel or schools...talking coaching.
 




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