Joey King Thread - Why does he play over Buggs?

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Costa Rican Gopher said:
Isn't this why we pay Pitino? To make those kind of evaluations based on coaching these guys every day in practice & game situations?
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He's not doing a very good job right now then... Again, I'll say this to you and Winnasota. I do respect your opinions, however I (and some others) strongly disagree. I don't see it at all how you do. I think the offensive side of the game comes way more natural to Buggs than to Joey. The athletic side is self explanatory. Buggs is a better man-to-man defender. Joey has him beat in help defense, and off ball '"happenings", but that's about it.
 

JoshuaT81 said:
For everyone arguing that king is way better than buggs, do you guys just watch basketball or do you understand the concept of the game, do you know what it takes to win,
Do you know the little things like a pass before the assist that led that basket. Buggs, by what any basketball mind can see is a better on ball defender, easily a better passer,
And faster than king. And then there are intangables that we can't see like maybe he is a better rebounder or better st having tips or steals in the press because of his length and speed. But like I said before too small of a sample size to tell who is right or wrong. So you can't say we are wrong yet.
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I'd love it if Buggs was potentially that much better than King, but I am afraid that CRG is likely correct on Buggs. During the non-conference I would take a good bit of time to focus on him. An odd duck. Its more likely that Pitino is using him brilliantly, getting him in for a few shots.
 

Costa Rican Gopher said:
This is the exact same dynamic as last year when everyone wanted King to start over Oto. King is a much better player than Buggs. Like Oto last year, at least he understands conceptually what he's supposed to be doing. Buggs doesn't. To put it in perspective....Buggs is the backup behind both King AND Morris, but still only got 6 and 9 minutes respectively the last two games. If you think you know more than both Tubby and Pitino, who work/ed with Buggs every single day, you're wrong. If he gave us a better chance to win he'd start. If he helped us on any level, he'd get more minutes as back-up. Until the NCAA is officially out of reach we play the guys who give us the best chance to win right now.
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This is exactly right. Last game this board wanted to bench Hollins. Today King. If he was a better player, he'd be playing. Simple as that.
 

Moonlight said:
I'd love it if Buggs was potentially that much better than King, but I am afraid that CRG is likely correct on Buggs. During the non-conference I would take a good bit of time to focus on him. An odd duck. Its more likely that Pitino is using him brilliantly, getting him in for a few shots.
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Moonlight, don't just go with the crowd. Re-watch the game, follow Buggs and King's every move, even watch past games if you so choose. Buggs is way better than CRG makes him out to be. But he only gets 6-10 mins a game.
 

Yes, cause every coach in the world has never been wrong before about playing time
 


GameDay said:
Moonlight, don't just go with the crowd. Re-watch the game, follow Buggs and King's every move, even watch past games if you so choose. Buggs is way better than CRG makes him out to be. But he only gets 6-10 mins a game.
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I agree, do that, it's ugly basketball.
 

GameDay said:
Moonlight, don't just go with the crowd. Re-watch the game, follow Buggs and King's every move, even watch past games if you so choose. Buggs is way better than CRG makes him out to be. But he only gets 6-10 mins a game.
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While you are at it, watch the other games too. Joey missed a few shots that he normally makes and had a couple other bad plays. Although limited, he has still been one of our better players this year.
 

Winasota Gopher said:
I agree, do that, it's ugly basketball.
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And Winnasota, ftr, I'm not saying down with Joey, I just think a 20-20 split between the two sounds very rational to try at this point in time. On an unrelated note, I am happy with the game Andre had today!
 




GameDay said:
Moonlight, don't just go with the crowd. Re-watch the game, follow Buggs and King's every move, even watch past games if you so choose. Buggs is way better than CRG makes him out to be. But he only gets 6-10 mins a game.
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If you think I like to go with the crowd, you don't know me! No, I am a season ticket holder who, with time on my hands in meaningless nonconference games, took to watching Mr. Buggs. He has more ability in a certain way than King, absolutely no doubt. If I could explain it, I would, but he is a very odd duck who skills do not appear to be translatable to a 40 minute game. If they were, he'd be in there.
 

GameDay said:
And Winnasota, ftr, I'm not saying down with Joey, I just think a 20-20 split between the two sounds very rational to try at this point in time. On an unrelated note, I am happy with the game Andre had today!
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I know, I'm not against that, but I think you're really stretching to say anything comes natural to Charlie buggs. I suggest you watch games again and count how many times people have to point him to the right spot. How often does it seem the offense starts later than normal, how often there are two guys in the same spot. Happens much more when Charlie is in. And his biggest issue win Pitino, I believe based on when he gets pulled, is he almost never makes contact on a box out. Watch the Osu game, that's a huge example of that last point.
 

Moonlight said:
If you think I like to go with the crowd, you don't know me! No, I am a season ticket holder who, with time on my hands in meaningless nonconference games, took to watching Mr. Buggs. He has more ability in a certain way than King, absolutely no doubt. If I could explain it, I would, but he is a very odd duck who skills do not appear to be translatable to a 40 minute game. If they were, he'd be in there.
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If and when this team plays pressure bball all the time and more of an up and down game, buggs is the Better weapon, in the big 10 Joey is "better"
 

Winasota Gopher said:
If and when this team plays pressure bball all the time and more of an up and down game, buggs is the Better weapon, in the big 10 Joey is "better"
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Yes - and here we are in the BT. Kind of glad that Rutgers joined us now!
 



Winasota Gopher said:
I know, I'm not against that, but I think you're really stretching to say anything comes natural to Charlie buggs. I suggest you watch games again and count how many times people have to point him to the right spot. How often does it seem the offense starts later than normal, how often there are two guys in the same spot. Happens much more when Charlie is in. And his biggest issue win Pitino, I believe based on when he gets pulled, is he almost never makes contact on a box out. Watch the Osu game, that's a huge example of that last point.
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Agree with the boxing out point you make. But he's still a stronger rebounder than Joey who has 7 rebounds total in B1G play. Yes, Buggs gets lost on occasion, but knows where the ball needs to go and has a great feel for passing, and his perimeter stroke is nice as well. On the defensive side, he's a strong on-ball defender who does tend to get lost on rotations and with help D here and there. But all in all, King isn't even close lighting the conference up, so there's no reason why Buggs can't get 15-22 mins a game.
 

JoshuaT81 said:
Yes, cause every coach in the world has never been wrong before about playing time
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It's the classic, simplistic, but comfortable argument of the authoritarian mind. Are you the coach? Are you a doctor? Are you a mechanic? Are you the president?

No,

But I know when a coach's plans aren't working

No,

But I know when the doctor's medication is having bad effects.

No,

But I know the mechanic didn't fix the problem with my car.

No,

But I wouldn't invade a middle Eastern country on flimsy at best evidence.
 

cjbfbp said:
It's the classic, simplistic, but comfortable argument of the authoritarian mind. Are you the coach? Are you a doctor? Are you a mechanic? Are you the president?

No,

But I know when a coach's plans aren't working

No,

But I know when the doctor's medication is having bad effects.

No,

But I know the mechanic didn't fix the problem with my car.

No,

But I wouldn't invade a middle Eastern country on flimsy at best evidence.
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Very insightful. The problem is I'm just a simplistic, authoritarian who's afraid to leave his comfort zone. You've really made me look in the mirror.
 


I thought that King played okay other than the ball that he threw 10 feet over Mo's head and the stupid foul where he left his feet. I have a bigger problem with his turnover instead of a shot late in regulation against OSU
 

He can only hit threes, though, at the top of the arc. Line drives regularly when he is in the corner. He is a good deep shooter so it will be interesting to see if he can correct that
 

GameDay said:
Agree with the boxing out point you make. But he's still a stronger rebounder than Joey who has 7 rebounds total in B1G play. Yes, Buggs gets lost on occasion, but knows where the ball needs to go and has a great feel for passing, and his perimeter stroke is nice as well. On the defensive side, he's a strong on-ball defender who does tend to get lost on rotations and with help D here and there. But all in all, King isn't even close lighting the conference up, so there's no reason why Buggs can't get 15-22 mins a game.
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I'm ok with Charlie getting some more minutes, I don't think it'll be any better, my money is on it would be worse. But back to the king rebounding stat, there is a difference between boxing out your man and someone else getting the rebound and not boxing out anyone or someone else having to box out for you or your guy getting the board. not saying Joey is a phenomenal rebounder or great at boxing out, he's significantly better than Buggs though.


Edit: this is a fruitless conversation. I done. Let's hope buggs proves me wrong with more minutes.
 

This is the typical Minnesota sports thread. Always want to see the guy that's on the bench. Unless you've seen Buggs play as much or more as Pitino has, I don't think we should be arguing this, let alone bashing Pitino for starting King.

I've noticed Buggs can't rebound, isn't a great defender, and can't do much on offense when he isn't making three's. I still like King a lot better, just my opinion though.
 

mcal24 said:
This is the typical Minnesota sports thread. Always want to see the guy that's on the bench. Unless you've seen Buggs play as much or more as Pitino has, I don't think we should be arguing this, let alone bashing Pitino for starting King.
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It's a message board and there's been some good healthy discussion in this thread. Thats what message boards are for. Get over yourself.
 

GameDay said:
It's a message board and there's been some good healthy discussion in this thread. Thats what message boards are for. Get over yourself.
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Get over myself? What're you talking about? Just giving my two cents if that's okay with you.

And my apologies I didn't read every post in this thread as I haven't been online here until now.
 

mcal24 said:
can't rebound, isn't a great defender, and can't do much on offense when he isn't making three's. I still like King a lot better, just my opinion though.
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Did you just describe Joey King?
 

WilliamsArenaGuy said:
Did you just describe Joey King?
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Well, it could almost go for both of them haha. It's just that King can actually bring an inside presence and Buggs is a PF who plays like a guard. Clearly were weak at the 4 with either one, I just like King better.
 

King plays because Pitino trusts him to ATTEMPT to do what's expected of him on both the offensive and defensive ends of the floor. This team struggles with turnovers as is, but Buggs/Konate are noticeably unsure of what their responsibilities are on the court. Joey King would be absolutely fine as the 2nd big off the bench who plays ~10 min a game. He's obviously a very limited player who is going to get exposed when playing heavier minutes.

Here is my issue: It was apparent last year that King was not the answer at PF against B1G competition, yet the only potential answer at the position was a freshman in Josh Martin. It's absolutely unacceptable to go in to NEXT year with Joey King penciled in as your starting PF.
 

I really like Buggs. I like his potential. He seems like the only guy on the Gophers that still has that elite type of athleticism that we used to have with guys like Williams and Mbakwe. I think we all get a little more excited with an athlete like that on the court, just waiting for him to get a chance at a big dunk or block. However, I don't think Buggs is playing all that well. One thing I'm surprised no one has mentioned yet is his screening. Yesterday he was screening like a ghost, a lot of times not even coming close to making contact with the defender. Most times on offense lately he has looked like he is at walk-throughs, just going through the motions. He also doesn't box out very hard and at many times he doesn't box out at all. His help defense is pretty shaky also. The only place I would say he shines right now is on the press, he is a good on ball defender and his wingspan and quickness make him an excellent trapper.

I would like to see him get more playing time, as I think some of these problems will get fixed as he gains confidence, but I can definitely see some reasons why Pitino would favor King at times.
 

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