Joey King Thread - Why does he play over Buggs?

[bga1]

Pretty rare for a coach to risk losing more games to give kids experience -- for a future payoff? Pitino wouldn't be risking his job this year (like some coaches) but he risks piling up loses that will attach a stink to his program that is hard to get rid of. Doesn't seem like next year's recruiting is going to put MN in the top 25 so you better win every game you can. Developing players is done in practice. Losing kills recruiting and only leads to more losing.

He's 0-4 with the group he is playing- you can't do worse than that. His power forward has 7 rebounds in 131 Big Ten minutes. Can it get worse? I don't think so. Just limit King's minutes and get some more minutes to Buggs, Gaston and Konate. Today he could have went small with Morris at the 4 at the end instead of King (Morris our best player today was not on the floor at the end) against a Michigan team that doesn't have size. I'd bet on Morris any day for a rebound against King. We'll see what happens, I'm not giving up on the season but I think some chance is needed to inject something into this team.

 

[bga1]

What did King do wrong? I don't think he was the reason we lost today. He had a bone head pass or two that I remember. I must have missed something. He certainly didn't do much at all, which is an obvious problem, but I'm perplexed as to why Gopherhole is picking Joey as the scape goat today.

Well- 31 minutes, one rebound (that should be nuf said right there for a PF) 6 points, 4 turnovers, no steals, no assists, 2 for 7 shooting, gives up three free throws at crunch time on a bone headed defensive play. How's that for starters?

 

[Winasota Gopher]

3 bad passes, getting beat off the dribble a few times, that foul at the end, alligator armed wide open threes (that Buggs would've made), absent on the boards as always. He is outmatched at the big ten level. It's okay that we have differences in opinion, but I see him compared to Buggs ALOT different than you. At this point I do think its necessary to change the PT allotment at PF and see if it works. King is a 7th man IMO. Different takes, that's all.

For the record, I don't think Joey King is a good basketball player, and I'm not opposed to buggs getting minutes. I see some things in buggs that are just inexcusable for a college basketball player. K think he isn't getting minutes for those reasons.

The assumption that buggs is the answer is what bothers me. Let's get him more minutes for development? I'm game, to let him work through things? I'm game. I think if we lose a 5th game before winning 3, it'll happen.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

This is the exact same dynamic as last year when everyone wanted King to start over Oto. King is a much better player than Buggs. Like Oto last year, at least he understands conceptually what he's supposed to be doing. Buggs doesn't. To put it in perspective....Buggs is the backup behind both King AND Morris, but still only got 6 and 9 minutes respectively the last two games. If you think you know more than both Tubby and Pitino, who work/ed with Buggs every single day, you're wrong. If he gave us a better chance to win he'd start. If he helped us on any level, he'd get more minutes as back-up. Until the NCAA is officially out of reach we play the guys who give us the best chance to win right now.

 

[Winasota Gopher]

Well- 31 minutes, one rebound (that should be nuf said right there for a PF) 6 points, 4 turnovers, no steals, no assists, 2 for 7 shooting, gives up three free throws at crunch time on a bone headed defensive play. How's that for starters?

Yup, bad game by Joey, I'm not disagreeing. I don't think any of those cost us this game, we've won and lost with similar performances.

I don't see buggs doing anything different put in similar situations. But I hope I'm wrong. It's a terrible situation at best.

 

[cjbfbp]

You're absolutely correct. I have no idea why King plays. It's not because he plays smarter, or harder. He doesn't rebound more. He doesn't play better defense. I mean, seriously, what is it?

He does play hard, maybe harder than Buggs, but that doesn't make up for his physical limitations. Buggs is quicker on defense, can jump higher, can run down the court faster, is a quicker and possibly better passer, and possibly even a better outside shooter if given the chance. King has more game experience and maybe he listens better in practice, but sometimes you just have to go with the better athlete and hope he gets it with more playing time. Again, what does Pitino have to lose at this point?

 

[Winasota Gopher]

This is the exact same dynamic as last year when everyone wanted King to start over Oto. King is a much better player than Buggs. Like Oto last year, at least he understands conceptually what he's supposed to be doing. Buggs doesn't. To put it in perspective....Buggs is the backup behind both King AND Morris, but still only got 6 and 9 minutes respectively the last two games. If you think you know more than both Tubby and Pitino, who work/ed with Buggs every single day, you're wrong. If he gave us a better chance to win he'd start. If he helped us on any level, he'd get more minutes as back-up. Until the NCAA is officially out of reach we play the guys who give us the best chance to win right now.

He's better with words than I.

 

[cjbfbp]

Yup, bad game by Joey, I'm not disagreeing. I don't think any of those cost us this game, we've won and lost with similar performances.

I don't see buggs doing anything different put in similar situations. But I hope I'm wrong. It's a terrible situation at best.

We can't continue in the Big Ten with this kind of combined deficit in athleticism in the front court. Mo is big but he's slow and doesn't jump very well most of the time. Joey is also slow, undersized for a four, weak, and plays below the rim. Put them both on the court at the same time for 30+ minutes a game and you're asking for trouble. We faced Ricky Doyle and filler upfront today and couldn't use that to our advantage. Ricky Doyle looked like a budding Marc Gasol against our team.

Buggs and even Bakary need to be used more often. At least Bakary is really big, he's gotten a fair number of free throws for the minutes played, and he hasn't been so bad at the free throw line for a raw freshman big.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

We can't continue in the Big Ten with this kind of combined deficit in athleticism in the front court. Mo is big but he's slow and doesn't jump very well most of the time. Joey is also slow, undersized for a four, weak, and plays below the rim. Put them both on the court at the same time for 30+ minutes a game and you're asking for trouble. We faced Ricky Doyle and filler upfront today and couldn't use that to our advantage. Ricky Doyle looked like a budding Marc Gasol against our team.

Buggs and even Bakary need to be used more often. At least Bakary is really big, he's gotten a fair number of free throws for the minutes played, and he hasn't been so bad at the free throw line for a raw freshman big.

I have a hard time lumping Buggs and Bakary together. Bakary will be a major part of our rotation in the future. I don't ever see that happening for Buggs. We will recruit players better than him or go down in flames trying. His game will never match his potential. He has no heart, no toughness and no clue. imo

 

[rivergopher]

I have a hard time lumping Buggs and Bakary together. Bakary will be a major part of our rotation in the future. I don't ever see that happening for Buggs. We will recruit players better than him or go down in flames trying. His game will never match his potential. He has no heart, no toughness and no clue. imo

How do you know? He has not yet in two years.

 

[cjbfbp]

He's 0-4 with the group he is playing- you can't do worse than that. His power forward has 7 rebounds in 131 Big Ten minutes. Can it get worse? I don't think so.

Me neither. I agree with your suggestion. Play Buggs and Bakary more. 7 rebounds in 131 minutes speaks for itself and he doesn't do anything else well enough to justify 30+ minutes a game. When you have a lead late in the game, keep him in for free throw shooting.

 

[Winasota Gopher]

We can't continue in the Big Ten with this kind of combined deficit in athleticism in the front court. Mo is big but he's slow and doesn't jump very well most of the time. Joey is also slow, undersized for a four, weak, and plays below the rim. Put them both on the court at the same time for 30+ minutes a game and you're asking for trouble. We faced Ricky Doyle and filler upfront today and couldn't use that to our advantage. Ricky Doyle looked like a budding Marc Gasol against our team.

Buggs and even Bakary need to be used more often. At least Bakary is really big, he's gotten a fair number of free throws for the minutes played, and he hasn't been so bad at the free throw line for a raw freshman big.

I don't see buggs fixing any of what you stated here. As stated, I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

 

[cjbfbp]

He has no heart, no toughness and no clue. imo

And Joey has no speed, no quickness on defense, no athletic ability, and gets mentally flustered after a couple of mistakes. Pick your poison. I'm like Mae West: "When given a choice between two evils, I always pick the one I haven't tried before."

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

How do you know? He has not yet in two years.

What?

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

And Joey has no speed, no quickness on defense, no athletic ability, and gets mentally flustered after a couple of mistakes. Pick your poison. I'm like Mae West: "When given a choice between two evils, I always pick the one I haven't tried before."

Do you think Pitino just doesn't have your vision?

 

[cjbfbp]

I don't see buggs fixing any of what you stated here. As stated, I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

I'm not suggesting Buggs is a savior, but I can see what isn't working well enough. There is also Bakary. Try them both, at the same time if necessary, and see what you can get out of them.

 

[Winasota Gopher]

I'm not suggesting Buggs is a savior, but I can see what isn't working well enough. There is also Bakary. Try them both, at the same time if necessary, and see what you can get out of them.

Yup, I'm ok with that, and I'd argue he has done some of that and it wasn't pretty in non conference...

 

[cjbfbp]

Do you think Pitino just doesn't have your vision?

No, I think he's afraid of the unknown. Maybe if these rotations lose enough games he'll get some courage to experiment.

 

[bga1]

Do you think Pitino just doesn't have your vision?

Why isn't Pitino playing the great Elliot much then? (only guy with any toughness.. right?)

I think Pitino has the ability to be a great coach. Love him. I think he has been caught playing a little too safe trying to control things a little too much and not willing to have a little risk/ reward. Thus burning his timeouts, thus sticking with King too long over the X factor Buggs, thus giving Konate zero minutes. It's not time to blow it up but playing it safe isn't working either and this team needs a few changes to spark them. You say Buggs has no heart but the players like him and I have often seen the team play with more energy when he's in.

 

[cjbfbp]

Yup, I'm ok with that, and I'd argue he has done some of that and it wasn't pretty in non conference...

I disagree. I thought the three forward rotation (Elliot, Bakary, and either Buggs or Joey) off the bench worked reasonably well when it was tried during nonconference. It was abandoned too soon in favor of a comfort zone.

 

[rivergopher]

What?

He has had two recruiting cycles to find a better player than buggsy but there he is our backup PF, he missed on Martin jury is still out on Konate/Gaston but he has not proven that he can recruit a big ten level pf/c type.

 

[cjbfbp]

Why isn't Pitino playing the great Elliot much then? (only guy with any toughness.. right?)

I think Pitino has the ability to be a great coach. Love him. I think he has been caught playing a little too safe trying to control things a little too much and not willing to have a little risk/ reward. Thus burning his timeouts, thus sticking with King too long over the X factor Buggs, thus giving Konate zero minutes. It's not time to blow it up but playing it safe isn't working either and this team needs a few changes to spark them. You say Buggs has no heart but the players like him and I have often seen the team play with more energy when he's in.

Ditto!

 

[Winasota Gopher]

I disagree. I thought the three forward rotation (Elliot, Bakary, and either Buggs or Joey) off the bench worked reasonably well when it was tried during nonconference. It was abandoned too soon in favor of a comfort zone.

Let's just say you're right, we remember different things apparently, I would argue a high lo offense might suit this roster better given its current makeup, should Pitino do that?

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

No, I think he's afraid of the unknown. Maybe if these rotations lose enough games he'll get some courage to experiment.

Unknown? I bet he's got a much better handle on what they can do, than you think he does.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

Why isn't Pitino playing the great Elliot much then? (only guy with any toughness.. right?)

I think Pitino has the ability to be a great coach. Love him. I think he has been caught playing a little too safe trying to control things a little too much and not willing to have a little risk/ reward. Thus burning his timeouts, thus sticking with King too long over the X factor Buggs, thus giving Konate zero minutes. It's not time to blow it up but playing it safe isn't working either and this team needs a few changes to spark them. You say Buggs has no heart but the players like him and I have often seen the team play with more energy when he's in.

Having heart and being a nice guy have nothing to do with each other. I really wish I thought there was a future for Buggs, but I don't ever see that happening.

 

[cjbfbp]

Let's just say you're right, we remember different things apparently, I would argue a high lo offense might suit this roster better given its current makeup, should Pitino do that?

Possibly. Kansas seems to use it. I just want to get a better combination of size and athleticism in the front court than we've seen in this Big Ten season. If that is improved, that might influence the play calling, but I'll leave that up to the coach.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

He has had two recruiting cycles to find a better player than buggsy but there he is our backup PF, he missed on Martin jury is still out on Konate/Gaston but he has not proven that he can recruit a big ten level pf/c type.

You're preaching to the choir. Konate and Gaston are developmental players with potential. Buggs is a lost cause imo. He absolutely missed on Martin. I like what I've seen of Nwanko but he's an Elliot type player. Physical, but not real skilled. Pitino better find a way to get a rugged PF on this team next year or it will be another year like this one, imo.

 

[Winasota Gopher]

Possibly. Kansas seems to use it. I just want to get a better combination of size and athleticism in the front court than we've seen in this Big Ten season. If that is improved, that might influence the play calling, but I'll leave that up to the coach.

My point was Pitino isn't playing 3 forwards together. Period. He's recruiting and playing to a style, the roster being half slow it down, part emergency recruits and part right fit players is one of our biggest issues.

 

[JoshuaT81]

For everyone arguing that king is way better than buggs, do you guys just watch basketball or do you understand the concept of the game, do you know what it takes to win,
Do you know the little things like a pass before the assist that led that basket. Buggs, by what any basketball mind can see is a better on ball defender, easily a better passer,
And faster than king. And then there are intangables that we can't see like maybe he is a better rebounder or better st having tips or steals in the press because of his length and speed. But like I said before too small of a sample size to tell who is right or wrong. So you can't say we are wrong yet.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

For everyone arguing that king is way better than buggs, do you guys just watch basketball or do you understand the concept of the game, do you know what it takes to win,
Do you know the little things like a pass before the assist that led that basket. Buggs, by what any basketball mind can see is a better on ball defender, easily a better passer,
And faster than king. And then there are intangables that we can't see like maybe he is a better rebounder or better st having tips or steals in the press because of his length and speed. But like I said before too small of a sample size to tell who is right or wrong. So you can't say we are wrong yet.

Isn't this why we pay Pitino? To make those kind of evaluations based on coaching these guys every day in practice & game situations?