Jackson: Big-time colleges care more about money and winning than black athletes getting degrees

[STPGopher]

well I’m sorry you weren’t taught that life isn’t fair. You want to hold every disadvantaged adult’s hand through college? Go do it yourself

Trust me, I am well aware that life isn't fair. My point was and is that if a student of any background has known challenges is admitted to a University, they are most likely going to need some assistance to succeed. You see it all of the time in the corporate world when they can't find qualified candidates.

Moving right along. As a fan of Gopher athletics, I want to see every student athlete experience at minimum some level of academic success. I am happy that the University of Minnesota appears to have systems in place to assist those that are admitted. I am very happy that the University didn't just say we let you in, now you are on your own. People are making things happen. I think we are witnessing exciting times in Gold Country!

 

[mjfelton15]

Wow. You claim I have reading comprehension problems. Nice escape move. But, then you go on to criticize liberal educators. First you claim I have problems, but then you go on to prove my statement. You are being critical of liberal educators. You can lay claim to "wacko" liberalism, whatever that might be as you don't really describe what that happens to mean, except for gender, which has very little to do with educational outcome. It has more to do with culture wars (religious ideology) than educational outcomes. Gender issues has nothing to do with math, physics, chemistry, biology, English, art, etc. It may belong in health class, but only as a unit. So, just what are you trying to say? From what I gather, you think 0.001% of the curriculum is responsible for the decline of Western civilization! Did I get that right? I know I got that right.

No I didn’t prove your statement. Originally I did not say anything about liberals being terrible educators. You said that before I did. Go back and re-read my original post. I criticized liberal educators after you raised the point. I wasn’t going to get into that it, but since you mentioned it I felt I might as well say what I thought. you’re just triggered by me criticizing liberal educators, I never said they’re the cause of the decline of western civilization. I actually originally claimed everything starts at home. I only said that the liberal educators aren’t really helping with the faux progressive ideas they’re pushing.

 

[mjfelton15]

Yep, It's woven into the fabric of our nation. I still have hope that we as a nation can keep moving forward. Even if it makes coach Flecks chart look like Iowa farm land.

I was just teasing you because the moment you respond you've jumped into a political pool.

We all love the Gophers! That is the tie that binds. Whether we want to admit it or not, commenting on articles like this is mostly a way to kill time till spring ball.

Cheers!

I hope we can move forward too. I agree, I think people are just trying to kill time and we’re all bored. Go Gophs!

 

[mjfelton15]

Trust me, I am well aware that life isn't fair. My point was and is that if a student of any background has known challenges is admitted to a University, they are most likely going to need some assistance to succeed. You see it all of the time in the corporate world when they can't find qualified candidates.

Moving right along. As a fan of Gopher athletics, I want to see every student athlete experience at minimum some level of academic success. I am happy that the University of Minnesota appears to have systems in place to assist those that are admitted. I am very happy that the University didn't just say we let you in, now you are on your own. People are making things happen. I think we are witnessing exciting times in Gold Country!

I just don’t see where that assistance isn’t already available to students of any color, or background. Is there some “elite tutor” that is only available to rich white student athletes? You see what I’m saying right? The original reason for this discussion was an article that seems to be attempting to claim that black student athletes are still at some disadvantage. Or that they’re somehow being held back from things that white student athletes aren’t. I’ll be the first to fight back against any university that isn’t granting the same opportunities to people of any color. There are already dozens of laws and things in place to prevent such mistreatment from happening though. My issue here is that the writer is doing what many lefties of today continue to do, they want the bar set lower for minorities and more special help for minorities to make the stats look better. Like expecting less of a black student on their SAT score than they do of an Asian student (yes that’s a fact). They lower the expectations of minorities to keep up on their demographics, so that they can keep their government funding as an institution. This can, and does, only hurt the minorities in the grand scheme. They claim this is to make things equal and fair, but as far as the law is concerned things are already equal. Anything further at this point would only be giving a minority group an advantage over another, which makes things no longer equal. It’s the same as how female firefighters have lower requirements for their physical skills testing to become a firefighter than men. I’m sorry but if a woman are only required to carry 150 pounds out of a burning building, but the requirement for a man is 250 pounds, what is the point in having the requirements at all? Because the whole idea is that you’d have to save another person from dying in a burning building. The woman should have to be able to carry the standard, otherwise I don’t, and shouldn’t, trust her to save me.

 

[STPGopher]

I just don’t see where that assistance isn’t already available to students of any color, or background. Is there some “elite tutor” that is only available to rich white student athletes? You see what I’m saying right? The original reason for this discussion was an article that seems to be attempting to claim that black student athletes are still at some disadvantage. Or that they’re somehow being held back from things that white student athletes aren’t. I’ll be the first to fight back against any university that isn’t granting the same opportunities to people of any color. There are already dozens of laws and things in place to prevent such mistreatment from happening though. My issue here is that the writer is doing what many lefties of today continue to do, they want the bar set lower for minorities and more special help for minorities to make the stats look better. Like expecting less of a black student on their SAT score than they do of an Asian student (yes that’s a fact). They lower the expectations of minorities to keep up on their demographics, so that they can keep their government funding as an institution. This can, and does, only hurt the minorities in the grand scheme. They claim this is to make things equal and fair, but as far as the law is concerned things are already equal. Anything further at this point would only be giving a minority group an advantage over another, which makes things no longer equal. It’s the same as how female firefighters have lower requirements for their physical skills testing to become a firefighter than men. I’m sorry but if a woman are only required to carry 150 pounds out of a burning building, but the requirement for a man is 250 pounds, what is the point in having the requirements at all? Because the whole idea is that you’d have to save another person from dying in a burning building. The woman should have to be able to carry the standard, otherwise I don’t, and shouldn’t, trust her to save me.

We can't cover all of societies issues in a single thread, nor can we even cover all of the facets in this seemingly simple subject as it pertains to student athletes. With that said I am deliberately sticking to just a few issues relating to student athletes to attempt to narrow the scope. In this case admissions of an athlete that may need additional assistance to earn their college degree.

To attempt to simplify, some not all students need assistance in determining what their individual needs are. My point is that our University brought them in as they are. If there is anything that can be done to help them be successful then lets get it done. I also understand that you and many others are saying that there is more than enough resources for each athlete. I would tend to agree that there most likely is. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I will restate that for some, there is a need to be informed that there are these resources available. This is the process that one has to go through, etc. Some students just jump right in and swim like sharks. For many, going from High school to one of the largest research university's in the U.S. is a very confusing endeavor. It's not like some of the private Colleges/ Universities throughout the state where you can literally knock on the professors door and get assistance.

At the risk of sounding like a liberal (I'd prefer to be called resource advocate) I am all for anything that can help students be successful. Especially since we are saying that the student athletes are being compensated with "free tuition, and room and board".

 

[STPGopher]

Sure.

What do you propose?

Keep in mind these schools are already giving their players preferential treatment in signing up for classes, as well as access to tutors at no out-of-pocket cost. What more would you like to see them offer?


One thing I can think of, if it isn't already being done: role-model mentors. Older black men, who were athletes, went on to graduate, and have successful careers. They can empathize with probably most of the struggles that these athletes are going through in schools, and offer encouragement and wisdom. Set up weekly meetings or whatever is reasonable.

I am deliberately ignoring some of the points that the article in question raised. What I am speaking to is some of the things that the University of Minnesota is already doing. Assessing needs, academically, psychologically, etc., Counselling, mentoring, etc. I also think what you mentioned that I highlighted in bold needs to be done. Sometimes it's not race/ ethnic similarities that creates a point of connection. Sometimes it's vocation, or interest. Many times the difference between student A and Student B becoming and Engineer, for example, is that Student A had a parent/ relative that was an Engineer, and student B had no Idea what an Engineer does, and what it takes to get there. Sometimes exposure and mentoring is everything.

Having skilled staff that know how to mentor and motivate others help. Just like football, academics also has a culture of success. Sometimes you need to fail in an area to know that you need to be in another area. Sometimes you need people to push you to prevail. Assuming that the reports are accurate, the U is doing an excellent job of this.

Keep it going!

 

[Deleted_User]

No I didn’t prove your statement. Originally I did not say anything about liberals being terrible educators. You said that before I did. Go back and re-read my original post. I criticized liberal educators after you raised the point. I wasn’t going to get into that it, but since you mentioned it I felt I might as well say what I thought. you’re just triggered by me criticizing liberal educators, I never said they’re the cause of the decline of western civilization. I actually originally claimed everything starts at home. I only said that the liberal educators aren’t really helping with the faux progressive ideas they’re pushing.

Hey, I get to pull your chain. But, you inferred that liberals were inferior. Look up the word "inferred". You don't have to say something to reveal your hand. In poker, it is called a "tell". As for the decline of western civilization, I just tossed that hand grenade into the conversation. And, yes, you may be today's target of choice.

 

[Deleted_User]

There are people who do not know how to function in college. And, they may not even know how to get help on campus once they arrive. As for the liberal nature of campus, I would say campuses are liberal in support for education to succeed. Tutors, counselors, Dean's of colleges, TAs, the list goes on and on. There is support. Schools even supply assistants to study and every student can take advantage of these resources.

Two things, liberalism does not preclude success in college for any segment of society. Secondly, I wonder if money has more to do with the lack of success of black athletic students. Lack of money, even on a full ride, can limit a persons success.

 

[STPGopher]

There are people who do not know how to function in college. And, they may not even know how to get help on campus once they arrive. As for the liberal nature of campus, I would say campuses are liberal in support for education to succeed. Tutors, counselors, Dean's of colleges, TAs, the list goes on and on. There is support. Schools even supply assistants to study and every student can take advantage of these resources.

Two things, liberalism does not preclude success in college for any segment of society. Secondly, I wonder if money has more to do with the lack of success of black athletic students. Lack of money, even on a full ride, can limit a persons success.

Agree!

If we (The University of Minnesota) continue to build it, they (student athletes) will come. The funny thing about all of this is if it helps one segment of the student population, it can and will help all.

 

[Deleted_User]

Those who think liberalism is the problem are rooted in racial and radical animus against black students. Think about it, they blame the institution that tries to bring blacks to a degree. They don't blame red lining homes, food deserts, tossing resumes because of ethnic names. And, the whites who do these things don't join the military, have inheritance between generations, and don't get jailed or harassed by police for driving through a neighborhood where they live. Cops get to shot people without judicial approval in more situations than any other country on earth. And, we wonder why black athletes can have difficulty surviving college? This was not set up by liberalism. This was set up by racists in Congress and state legislatures. This was done by "conservative Democrats" of the south before they were adopted by Reagan to switch parties in the early 1980s. Those Democrats did move to the Republican party. And, now, we are seeing the full impact of that inclusion with a resurgence of racism. Yes, a resurgence. And, that is not coming from the Liberal left. It is coming from the right. I witnessed that in the 1990s when I ran in the Republican party and saw the new racism emerge in front of my eyes with a great deal of zeal by party leaders. I wish they were dead because they were all brown shirts in skirts and suits. And, now, the Republican party is a thousand times worse and completely coopted by the old southern Democrat caucus. We might as well have not fought the Civil War because in the end we are losing the battle in 2020.

 

[WoodburyTim]

Those who think liberalism is the problem are rooted in racial and radical animus against black students. Think about it, they blame the institution that tries to bring blacks to a degree. They don't blame red lining homes, food deserts, tossing resumes because of ethnic names. And, the whites who do these things don't join the military, have inheritance between generations, and don't get jailed or harassed by police for driving through a neighborhood where they live. Cops get to shot people without judicial approval in more situations than any other country on earth. And, we wonder why black athletes can have difficulty surviving college? This was not set up by liberalism. This was set up by racists in Congress and state legislatures. This was done by "conservative Democrats" of the south before they were adopted by Reagan to switch parties in the early 1980s. Those Democrats did move to the Republican party. And, now, we are seeing the full impact of that inclusion with a resurgence of racism. Yes, a resurgence. And, that is not coming from the Liberal left. It is coming from the right. I witnessed that in the 1990s when I ran in the Republican party and saw the new racism emerge in front of my eyes with a great deal of zeal by party leaders. I wish they were dead because they were all brown shirts in skirts and suits. And, now, the Republican party is a thousand times worse and completely coopted by the old southern Democrat caucus. We might as well have not fought the Civil War because in the end we are losing the battle in 2020.

Old Dean, today's new leftist. Too narcissistic and stupid to have an intellectual debate so he just calls everyone racist. A joke and clown to say the least.

MY one agreement with Dean is that there must be something fundamentally wrong with this nation that it produced an individual like himself and his family. Yuck.

 

[STPGopher]

Old Dean, today's new leftist. Too narcissistic and stupid to have an intellectual debate so he just calls everyone racist. A joke and clown to say the least.

MY one agreement with Dean is that there must be something fundamentally wrong with this nation that it produced an individual like himself and his family. Yuck.

Too few of us to feud.

Those who think liberalism is the problem are rooted in racial and radical animus against black students. Think about it, they blame the institution that tries to bring blacks to a degree. They don't blame red lining homes, food deserts, tossing resumes because of ethnic names. And, the whites who do these things don't join the military, have inheritance between generations, and don't get jailed or harassed by police for driving through a neighborhood where they live. Cops get to shot people without judicial approval in more situations than any other country on earth. And, we wonder why black athletes can have difficulty surviving college? This was not set up by liberalism. This was set up by racists in Congress and state legislatures. This was done by "conservative Democrats" of the south before they were adopted by Reagan to switch parties in the early 1980s. Those Democrats did move to the Republican party. And, now, we are seeing the full impact of that inclusion with a resurgence of racism. Yes, a resurgence. And, that is not coming from the Liberal left. It is coming from the right. I witnessed that in the 1990s when I ran in the Republican party and saw the new racism emerge in front of my eyes with a great deal of zeal by party leaders. I wish they were dead because they were all brown shirts in skirts and suits. And, now, the Republican party is a thousand times worse and completely coopted by the old southern Democrat caucus. We might as well have not fought the Civil War because in the end we are losing the battle in 2020.

I apologize if I come off like I am lecturing you. That is not my intent. While you do raise some interesting points, it is my humble opinion that all that will be accomplished in this forum is to sow seeds of discord. What one might be successful at accomplishing is provoking thoughts about how to continue to improve our Gophers program to attract recruits and support current and future players. Issues such as advocating for student support has universal appeal.

I do appreciate your candor and concern. I can tell that by identifying and raising concerns such as redlining (link below). Many for various reasons may have no idea, or don't want to know what you are talking about. So many of your points may fall on deaf ears.

I think all of us want players that would be willing to put in the work to succeed. So what can one/ all of us do? be civil (as possible?), focus universally on what is good for Gopher athletics, and support those initiatives when possible.

Just in case someone would like to know just a little bit about what you are talking about regarding redlining,, TPT did a nice documentary.

 

[mjfelton15]

The world was much easier when we just taught kids that thunder was angels bowling

Did they teach kids that in school, or did some parents just teach that to 5 year olds at home?

 

[GoGophersUMN]

I would bet the vast majority of student athletes of all races who don't graduate leave by choice rather than failing out, at least at power 5 schools.

I've worked closely with a few student athletes in classes. Most were just like any other student and knew what they were doing and worked hard. One put in so little effort and wrote so poorly that I'm not sure it would get higher than an F in a high school freshman writing class. He still managed to pass the class. He later transfered out because he wasn't getting much playing time and is now playing at his 3rd college. If he was able to pass that class, I'm not sure how any college football player could fail a class. They would have to never use the resources they are given and even then, I'm sure the coaches would be pushing them to keep them eligible.

The idea that teams are providing more/better resources to white athletes and black athletes is pretty far out there and until someone can show any decent evidence is hard to believe. They already provide as much support as they can without cheating (and I'm sure many schools cross that line). If black student athletes are choosing to go pro early, transfer out, or not finish classes after their last year of playing there's not much anyone can do. I'm sure if schools blocked black athletes from transferring or didn't support them if they declared early people would be mad about that too.

Student athletes are adults and they can make their own choices. To suggest that they don't know what is best for themselves and schools should try to force them to focus on school even if they don't want to is insulting.

 

[oleboy41]

This isn't a confusing issue. It's fairly straightforward
For a number of reasons, most of which can easily fall under the umbrella of 'historical and prevailing systemic racism', black students in this country in the K-12 range fair far worse than their white counterparts in general. I can attribute this to racism because we know factually that when circumstances are evened out and opportunities are provided, black students fair just fine. Just one fun semi fact (I don't recall the exact % and am not looking it up at the moment), qualified black students who have at least 1...only 1, teacher throughout school are something like 3 times as likely to be placed in a gifted program than black students who never have a black teacher.

Anyways, every university in America knows this. Football teams bring these kids to their school for the main reason of making money which is why they give them free school, room and board. Schools know full well that a percentage of their player population is coming in much less prepared than others. Schools then have a choice in how they handle that. They could truly emphasize and support the academic success of their athletes, or they can pay lip service to it. And there is nuance. Schools can do enough to keep players eligible, but not enough to get them graduated. They can even do enough to get them graduated, but not enough to get them into an actually useful career field. The numbers speak for themselves. Schools are using these kids and always have been. They don't truly provide them with the value of the education they're supposedly receiving and also don't pay them in cash.

 

[mjfelton15]

This isn't a confusing issue. It's fairly straightforward
For a number of reasons, most of which can easily fall under the umbrella of 'historical and prevailing systemic racism', black students in this country in the K-12 range fair far worse than their white counterparts in general. I can attribute this to racism because we know factually that when circumstances are evened out and opportunities are provided, black students fair just fine. Just one fun semi fact (I don't recall the exact % and am not looking it up at the moment), qualified black students who have at least 1...only 1, teacher throughout school are something like 3 times as likely to be placed in a gifted program than black students who never have a black teacher.

Anyways, every university in America knows this. Football teams bring these kids to their school for the main reason of making money which is why they give them free school, room and board. Schools know full well that a percentage of their player population is coming in much less prepared than others. Schools then have a choice in how they handle that. They could truly emphasize and support the academic success of their athletes, or they can pay lip service to it. And there is nuance. Schools can do enough to keep players eligible, but not enough to get them graduated. They can even do enough to get them graduated, but not enough to get them into an actually useful career field. The numbers speak for themselves. Schools are using these kids and always have been. They don't truly provide them with the value of the education they're supposedly receiving and also don't pay them in cash.

Don’t come in here with “systemic racism”. You can’t just blame systemic racism. Name the specific system that is racist. The same opportunities are provided to black students, if they weren’t it would be illegal. Anti-discrimination laws exist, and have existed, for quite some time. The opportunities are provided, black students just don’t take advantage of them the same way that white students do, generally speaking. Until you fix the black household, the number of opportunities you provide to black students won’t make much difference. Is it systemic racism that is to blame for why black fathers STATISTICALLY don’t stick around for their own kids? Because that statistically has a great deal of influence in things like graduation rates, poverty rates, homelessness rates, crime rates, and overall happiness of black kids. Or are you going to blame the racist prison system and/or racist law enforcement for there being a disproportionate number of black men in jail to white men. Because it couldn’t possibly be that black men are committing a disproportionate amount of jail/prison worthy crime, that’d be preposterous right? The entire black population makes up 14% of the total US population. of that 14%, black men make up about 6%-8% of the total US population, but commit over 50% of violent crime. To me that screams cultural issue, but I’m probably just racist too.

 

[The prez sez]

Don’t come in here with “systemic racism”. You can’t just blame systemic racism. Name the specific system that is racist. The same opportunities are provided to black students, if they weren’t it would be illegal. Anti-discrimination laws exist, and have existed, for quite some time. The opportunities are provided, black students just don’t take advantage of them the same way that white students do, generally speaking. Until you fix the black household, the number of opportunities you provide to black students won’t make much difference. Is it systemic racism that is to blame for why black fathers STATISTICALLY don’t stick around for their own kids? Because that statistically has a great deal of influence in things like graduation rates, poverty rates, homelessness rates, crime rates, and overall happiness of black kids. Or are you going to blame the racist prison system and/or racist law enforcement for there being a disproportionate number of black men in jail to white men. Because it couldn’t possibly be that black men are committing a disproportionate amount of jail/prison worthy crime, that’d be preposterous right? The entire black population makes up 14% of the total US population. of that 14%, black men make up about 6%-8% of the total US population, but commit over 50% of violent crime. To me that screams cultural issue, but I’m probably just racist too.
[/QUO


Let's avoid labels and focus on opportunity. Like if you create a level playing field people will achieve and thrive regardless of ethnic background. just got finished what would you say is occurring at auburn university which has over 30,O00 undergrads and 1,200 are black. Is that a level playing field and equal opportunity?

 

[STPGopher]

Don’t come in here with “systemic racism”. You can’t just blame systemic racism. Name the specific system that is racist. The same opportunities are provided to black students, if they weren’t it would be illegal. Anti-discrimination laws exist, and have existed, for quite some time. The opportunities are provided, black students just don’t take advantage of them the same way that white students do, generally speaking. Until you fix the black household, the number of opportunities you provide to black students won’t make much difference. Is it systemic racism that is to blame for why black fathers STATISTICALLY don’t stick around for their own kids? Because that statistically has a great deal of influence in things like graduation rates, poverty rates, homelessness rates, crime rates, and overall happiness of black kids. Or are you going to blame the racist prison system and/or racist law enforcement for there being a disproportionate number of black men in jail to white men. Because it couldn’t possibly be that black men are committing a disproportionate amount of jail/prison worthy crime, that’d be preposterous right? The entire black population makes up 14% of the total US population. of that 14%, black men make up about 6%-8% of the total US population, but commit over 50% of violent crime. To me that screams cultural issue, but I’m probably just racist too.

All that I can say to this is Elephants and ropes.

 

[Veritas]

This isn't a confusing issue. It's fairly straightforward
For a number of reasons, most of which can easily fall under the umbrella of 'historical and prevailing systemic racism', black students in this country in the K-12 range fair far worse than their white counterparts in general. I can attribute this to racism because we know factually that when circumstances are evened out and opportunities are provided, black students fair just fine. Just one fun semi fact (I don't recall the exact % and am not looking it up at the moment), qualified black students who have at least 1...only 1, teacher throughout school are something like 3 times as likely to be placed in a gifted program than black students who never have a black teacher.

Anyways, every university in America knows this. Football teams bring these kids to their school for the main reason of making money which is why they give them free school, room and board. Schools know full well that a percentage of their player population is coming in much less prepared than others. Schools then have a choice in how they handle that. They could truly emphasize and support the academic success of their athletes, or they can pay lip service to it. And there is nuance. Schools can do enough to keep players eligible, but not enough to get them graduated. They can even do enough to get them graduated, but not enough to get them into an actually useful career field. The numbers speak for themselves. Schools are using these kids and always have been. They don't truly provide them with the value of the education they're supposedly receiving and also don't pay them in cash.

No teacher can, or ever has, taught a person to be smarter than what that particular individual was born to be. Teachers teach skills and content, not core smarts. If a particular person is smart as a door post teachers can not "turn on a light switch". Teachers work with what is presented to them, not to pour in twinkly lights of wisdom.

 

[Jeshurun]

Colleges care about students getting degrees only so far as it helps them make money, period. It’s the student’s job to care about getting a degree. That’s the way the business world works, and the way college works too.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

All that I can say to this is Elephants and ropes.

You hit on a very important concept.

There has always been money and power in raising the hackles and learned helplessness of aggrieved parties, has ever been so and will ever be so. The benefits of said agitation primarily go to?

 

[MplsGopher]

Yes, it absolutely does. Article is way off base in my opinion.

The author seems to focus his frustration around a basis of anecdotal occurrences shared with him by black students. He in particular highlights the claim of a black student who says he is 5'5" tall and 135 lbs and yet white students would come up to him and congratulate him on a good game.

On one hand that sounds preposterous to me ... but on the other hand, you will always fail if you underestimate the stupidity of the human race.

 

[MplsGopher]

are you trying to say that a large number of black student athletes at the college level are homeless?

I was talking about the extreme ends of the wealth spectrum, when he then replied that having a disadvantaged upbringing didn't hold him back from achieving. I assumed he didn't grow up homeless, and so my point to him was that other people have it (far, perhaps) worse than he did, still.

Who’s problem is it that some people don’t have the same determination? People have to want success on their own. You can’t force someone to want it, and you can’t hold their hand to it.
...
I think society was best when people were expected to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

The fundamental argument here can just as easily be boiled down to the argument of personal responsibility.

You argue passionate for a binary reality, which is ridiculous to me. The truth is always a spectrum.

Absolutely there are lazy people, there are people who unfairly take advantage of the system, and there are people who outright cheat the system. That has always been true and sadly always will be true.

But just as true, there are people who could succeed if they just got some help in the start. They'd even be willing to repay that help. But they are, legitimately, unable to bootstrap themselves entirely of their own accord.

You can waive your hands all you like, but that is the truth.

 

[MplsGopher]

To cut this short, I believe we should provide every American with a good, but always imperfect, opportunity to pick up the ball and carry it to whatever level they are able to achieve. Equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. To me our football players are given more, much more than a fair opportunity to get a good education. That some fail to take that opportunity is all on them.

I'm pretty sure I agree with everything here.

Generally speaking: I don't like that our system of education is mainly geared only to provide "academic" skills. There is a baseline that is needed for most of life, but it really isn't that expansive.

We shouldn't be pigeonholing every person into a full four years of academics in high school, and especially not encouraging every person to receive academic high education.

 

[mjfelton15]

QUOTE="The prez sez, post: 1889797, member: 12477"]

[/QUOTE]
There is already a level playing field as far as the law goes. Auburn cannot exclude anyone based on race, it is illegal. So if they are doing so, they should be penalized. I strongly, strongly doubt that is the case though. a college not having many black students could have numerous reasons as to why. How many black students are applying to get in? Do black students want to go there? Are the admissions standards higher than many of the black applicants are able to reach? Is Auburn supposed to force black kids to go to their school to look more inclusive? Or lower their admissions standards? If Auburn has high standards, is that a problem?

 

[MplsGopher]

Secondly, I wonder if money has more to do with the lack of success of black athletic students. Lack of money, even on a full ride, can limit a persons success.

There is plenty of anecdotal evidence to support this.

Off the top of my head I remember listening to a program that was talking about the odd and disappointing failure of inner-city urban, gifted high school students who were awarded full rides to the very tip-top liberal arts schools in the NE.

The kids would show up and .... fail. Spectacularly. They'd stop going to class.

The TL;DR summary is basically: far, far too much fish out of water, to survive. It's mostly a bunch of rich, white kids at the school. They couldn't function socially, period. They didn't know how to ask for help. They didn't know help existed. And without that, they froze up academically and dropped out.

 

[mjfelton15]

I was talking about the extreme ends of the wealth spectrum, when he then replied that having a disadvantaged upbringing didn't hold him back from achieving. I assumed he didn't grow up homeless, and so my point to him was that other people have it (far, perhaps) worse than he did, still.


The fundamental argument here can just as easily be boiled down to the argument of personal responsibility.

You argue passionate for a binary reality, which is ridiculous to me. The truth is always a spectrum.

Absolutely there are lazy people, there are people who unfairly take advantage of the system, and there are people who outright cheat the system. That has always been true and sadly always will be true.

But just as true, there are people who could succeed if they just got some help in the start. They'd even be willing to repay that help. But they are, legitimately, unable to bootstrap themselves entirely of their own accord.

You can waive your hands all you like, but that is the truth.

there are already a ton of resources available to those that fall into the ”who could succeed if they just got some some help from the start”. People in that category also have to be smart enough, or bold enough, to seek such help. The helper shouldn’t have to hunt down the one that is to be helped. The idea that there just isn’t enough assistance or aid out there is ridiculous.

 

[mjfelton15]

All that I can say to this is Elephants and ropes.

Elephants and ropes?

 

[MplsGopher]

there are already a ton of resources available to those that fall into the ”who could succeed if they just got some some help from the start”.

OK. But, I thought you had just said "I think society was best when people were expected to pull themselves up by their bootstraps." I thought that was implying that you think no aid should ever be given to any person, and they should only be able to achieve based on whatever resources they can harvest of their own accord.

Anyway ...

People in that category also have to be smart enough, or bold enough, to seek such help. The helper shouldn’t have to hunt down the one that is to be helped. The idea that there just isn’t enough assistance or aid out there is ridiculous.

OK, well this is at least somewhere along the lines of reasonable.

I agree that helpers should not have to hunt for people who need help. I don't think that is a thing ...

 

[STPGopher]

Those who think liberalism is the problem are rooted in racial and radical animus against black students. Think about it, they blame the institution that tries to bring blacks to a degree. They don't blame red lining homes, food deserts, tossing resumes because of ethnic names. And, the whites who do these things don't join the military, have inheritance between generations, and don't get jailed or harassed by police for driving through a neighborhood where they live. Cops get to shot people without judicial approval in more situations than any other country on earth. And, we wonder why black athletes can have difficulty surviving college? This was not set up by liberalism. This was set up by racists in Congress and state legislatures. This was done by "conservative Democrats" of the south before they were adopted by Reagan to switch parties in the early 1980s. Those Democrats did move to the Republican party. And, now, we are seeing the full impact of that inclusion with a resurgence of racism. Yes, a resurgence. And, that is not coming from the Liberal left. It is coming from the right. I witnessed that in the 1990s when I ran in the Republican party and saw the new racism emerge in front of my eyes with a great deal of zeal by party leaders. I wish they were dead because they were all brown shirts in skirts and suits. And, now, the Republican party is a thousand times worse and completely coopted by the old southern Democrat caucus. We might as well have not fought the Civil War because in the end we are losing the battle in 2020.

Southern Strategy / Random Example of Opportunity I