Jackson: Big-time colleges care more about money and winning than black athletes getting degrees

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Maverick said:
Another point to consider is that players (black and non-black) who leave early for the NFL (maybe transfers too?), are also counted in the "not graduated" totals, yet these numbers are never separated out which would in my opinion give a much clearer picture of how a university is truly doing with graduation rates. Here is a copy and paste link and a quote from an article in that link.

www.ncaa.org

DI student-athletes graduate at record high rates

www.ncaa.org www.ncaa.org

"The Division I Board of Directors created the GSR in 2002 in response to Division I college and university presidents who wanted data that more accurately reflected the mobility of college students beyond what the federal graduation rate measures. The federal rate counts as an academic failure any student who leaves a school, no matter whether he or she enrolls at another school. Also, the federal rate does not recognize students who enter school as transfer students."
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I have to hope that the author was way too smart, to not have realized this?? Right??

It has the potentially to at least partially nullify his point, maybe even completely, if it was ignored.


In all honesty, I would love for the NCAA to commission a study to interview many players who do not graduate with an undergrad degree, after having spent at least three seasons at a school, and understand what were the reasons why.

It really makes no sense to me that you'd be at the school that long and then just go "ah F it, who needs school."
 

The idea that Ohio State is a racist institution that tries to make it more difficult for black students (let alone student-athletes, let alone football players ... who are worshiped as gods) to graduate with an undergraduate degree, is absolutely laughable.

I can only imagine that they are given every possible chance and opportunity to do what they need to do to be able to graduate, if they are so motivated.
 

GophersInIowa said:
"We ain't come to play school."
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I admit that’s my fault.

STPGopher said:
Not sure I follow. This doesn't make sense. It's like saying I know we gave others a 30 yard head start, but now it is solely your responsibility to be competitive in the 40 yard dash.
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How do you rectify a stratified by wealth society? Communism? Reparations? Difficult, complicated questions. There is already a huge amount of aid available for low income in terms of tax breaks, mortgage financing, health care. Redistributing wealth is an issue we argue about every day, is necessary to some degree, and it’s a discussion worth having.

But, it’s insulting to say that people here that work in an “eat what you kill” free market economy aren’t hiring and retaining the best and brightest thinkers, workers, and communicators of all races. One can argue there is still inherent racial prejudice which is fair but I take issue with a lot of the other inflammatory woe is me stuff. Some people need to turn the mirror around. This is 100% white peoples fault? Not in a million years. That’s not to say we can’t give a helping hand to deserving climbers.
 

Gold Rush said:
I do not think colleges are trying to get white athletes a degree more than the black athletes. It DOES fall on the athletes themselves to get a degree. It is possible there are more black athletes using college as a stepping stone to the NFL and a college degree is completely secondary. I do not have the answers to this one.

These are interesting statistics though and do warrant some attention. PJ Fleck is doing it right though and should probably present these statistics when doing home visits. That would probably score some points for him right there!
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In general I agree with your post. I struggle with the parts in bold. Ignoring the why's for a moment, some of us humans just need more support than others. I am so happy that the University has supported resources for student athletes. I am totally speculating and could be wrong, but It appears that the support staff meets the student athletes where they are at and guides then on a path that will get them where they need to be.

Going slightly off topic here. Since 'our' fair University is "driven to discover" I think it is always fair to ask those simple questions such as why, and how. It appears to me that someone has already seen a what, asked a why, and has developed a how.
 

STPGopher said:
It appears to me that someone has already seen a what, asked a why, and has developed a how.
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But as another poster noted, his what could be flawed by how those numbers are compiled and the context of why black football players might leave school early before completing their degree.

To me, really the main gist of his article was that he hates that blacks on a predominately white campus are assumed to be athletes. He goes on to make the -- absurd, in my opinion -- point that those schools should be spending the same amount of resources to go out and recruit black non-athlete, high-academic students.

Obviously it doesn't work that way. With probably few exceptions, schools don't go out and recruit undergrad students. They passively sit back and see who applies, then select the best applicants.
 


MNVCGUY said:
Interesting read but feel like the author is trying to make some very different points. The first part about athletes not graduating would somehow imply that schools don't support the education of their black players the same way they do with their white players. I find that very very hard to believe. Athletes have a massive academic support structure available to them. If a player doesn't graduate that is on them far more then the school.

This one bit didn't surprise me though:

"This expectation of perfection and near perfection for white athletes on and off the field is exemplified by this: While 49 bowl teams had a graduation rate ranging from 88 to 100 percent for white players, only eight programs had the same range for black players (Boise St., Temple, Louisville, Navy, Utah, Minnesota, Wisconsin and Tulane)."

The remainder of the article focuses on the disparity among the lack of non black athletes in the general population at many colleges. That is an entirely different issue then the graduation rates of black athletes compared to their white counterparts.
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"The first part about athletes not graduating would somehow imply that schools don't support the education of their black players the same way they do with their white players."

This is just a general though not necessarily directed at anyone. Whether black, white, or other, maybe the key to success is not to use a cookie cutter system and treat everyone exactly the same way. For many reasons some individuals may have a unique set of circumstances. Stating the obvious, They may have different needs. Some individuals may need more or different types of support.
 

STPGopher said:
Some individuals may need more or different types of support.
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Sure.

What do you propose?

Keep in mind these schools are already giving their players preferential treatment in signing up for classes, as well as access to tutors at no out-of-pocket cost. What more would you like to see them offer?


One thing I can think of, if it isn't already being done: role-model mentors. Older black men, who were athletes, went on to graduate, and have successful careers. They can empathize with probably most of the struggles that these athletes are going through in schools, and offer encouragement and wisdom. Set up weekly meetings or whatever is reasonable.
 

STPGopher said:
Not sure I follow. This doesn't make sense. It's like saying I know we gave others a 30 yard head start, but now it is solely your responsibility to be competitive in the 40 yard dash.
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well I’m sorry you weren’t taught that life isn’t fair. You want to hold every disadvantaged adult’s hand through college? Go do it yourself
 

STPGopher said:
So basically you are frustrated with "Liberals" and you chose to vent. Not really an issue. That's what us fans do on a sports board. Just be accurate and admit that you need to post a political rant.;)
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No, but to discuss this topic, which is pushing the political line very hard, politics was going to be mentioned somewhere. Wait what am I saying, it’s a topic that deals with racial issues and education, so it was political from the start.
 



mjfelton15 said:
No, but to discuss this topic, which is pushing the political line very hard, politics was going to be mentioned somewhere. Wait what am I saying, it’s a topic that deals with racial issues and education, so it was political from the start.
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What does that mean?

I feel like I see people bring up "oh it's political" as a way to be dismissive of topics / opinions they don't like. I don't get that. If something is "political" ... so what?
 

Pompous Elitist said:
How do you rectify a stratified by wealth society?
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Stratification in of itself is fine. The problem is when you have such relatively heavy weight on the extreme ends of the spectrum.
 
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A_Slab_of_Bacon said:
What does that mean?

I feel like I see people bring up "oh it's political" as a way to be dismissive of topics / opinions they don't like. I don't get that. If something is "political" ... so what?
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Well people here seem to want no mention of politics on the Gopher sports board, and I would agree to that, but this topic was posted here and it is political. The guy I was replying to wants me to admit that I wanted to go on a political rant, but that wasn’t what I wanted to do. I was just saying what I think the source of the problem is.
 

Who could be so foolish as to believe that elite athletic skill is equally distributed amongst Americans and, at the same time, believe that high level intellect and/or academic skills are equally distributed amongst Americans? All data, ALL, shows that both of the above assumptions are false. We all now accept that ultra high level athletic ability is, on average, more concentrated in one group. Why not just accept what the data clearly shows (on average) about ability/inclination to do university work? Kids of all American groups have a good (not perfect, never perfect) chance to fairly play American football. Kids of all American groups have a good (not perfect, never perfect) chance to fairly get a good education. In both cases, you have to pick up the ball and run with it or not.
 





MplsGopher said:
You were homeless?

Glad to hear you pulled yourself up by your bootstraps, and chose to not be a victim.
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No, but I hid for five years until 18 years of age. Earned every penny I spent from age 14 on. Paid my own way to university by working full time. But then, I had the genes to want to do it. I mention this to just show that it can be done is most any case, but there has to be the grit and some talent to do it. Being a victim is a self killer. My impression from my long life is that it is the genetic combination of some level of talent and/or grit that makes all the difference.
 


Veritas said:
No, but I hid for five years until 18 years of age. Earned every penny I spent from age 14 on. Paid my own way to university by working full time. But then, I had the genes to want to do it. I mention this to just show that it can be done is most any case, but there has to be the grit and some talent to do it. Being a victim is a self killer.
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My hat's off to you in overcoming your situation.

Some people don't have your determination. And some people still have it worse than you did. I don't think that's fair to label them as victims, simply because they weren't able to follow your path (and for all we know, they did try).
 

MplsGopher said:
Obviously it doesn't work that way. With probably few exceptions, schools don't go out and recruit undergrad students. They passively sit back and see who applies, then select the best applicants.
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Actually, a slight nitpick here... Many, if not most, schools (and certainly the most selective ones) fall all over themselves to recruit academically qualified minority students. That includes the University of MN. The next time you see an article headline that says something like "this student was accepted by all Ivy League Schools," you will know that student's race without even looking at the article. Hint... it ain't ever some middle class white kid from Hibbing or Hutchinson. Why? Because the competition for that qualified minority student is intense.
 

Crosby said:
Actually, a slight nitpick here... Many, if not most, schools (and certainly the most selective ones) fall all over themselves to recruit academically qualified minority students. That includes the University of MN. The next time you see an article headline that says something like "this student was accepted by all Ivy League Schools," you will know that student's race without even looking at the article. Hint... it ain't ever some middle class white kid from Hibbing or Hutchinson. Why? Because the competition for that qualified minority student is intense.
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Fair enough. Thank you

So that goes completely against the author's main point.
 


A_Slab_of_Bacon said:
What does that mean?

I feel like I see people bring up "oh it's political" as a way to be dismissive of topics / opinions they don't like. I don't get that. If something is "political" ... so what?
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To echo this point, most things are political in some way, so calling something political to be dismissive of it is naive at best.
 

MplsGopher said:
You were homeless?

Glad to hear you pulled yourself up by your bootstraps, and chose to not be a victim.
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are you trying to say that a large number of black student athletes at the college level are homeless? Well good thing they’re on scholarships and allowed to live in the dorm. Homelessness solved.
MplsGopher said:
My hat's off to you in overcoming your situation.

Some people don't have your determination. And some people still have it worse than you did. I don't think that's fair to label them as victims, simply because they weren't able to follow your path (and for all we know, they did try).
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Who’s problem is it that some people don’t have the same determination? People have to want success on their own. You can’t force someone to want it, and you can’t hold their hand to it.
Question for you: if you don’t finish something at work by the deadline, or your boss wanted you to do something and you failed to do it when he asked you to, do you use the line “I’m sorry boss, I just don’t have the same determination as some people to get this done”. If you do use that, does it work? Does your boss respond with “oh crap, I’m sorry I didn’t consider your determination level before asking you to do that project.”
Second question: is this the mindset you want to set young adults up to have as they enter the workforce where they’ll be expected to contribute to society?
I think society was best when people were expected to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
 

BeerFueledFF said:
To echo this point, most things are political in some way, so calling something political to be dismissive of it is naive at best.
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Yeah I was responding to someone saying that I just wanted to go on a political rant. I was saying that this post was political from the beginning, and I was just contributing my opinion. Not really ranting.
 

mjfelton15 said:
You need to work on your reading comprehension skills. I actually didn’t say that liberals made terrible educators. I said that the issues with black students not succeeding starts at home, and once the black student is an adult they become solely responsible for their own grades and success. What I was getting at with my part about educators being liberal was this: the education field is dominated by liberals, and liberals claim to be the ones that fight for equality the most. They claim to care about people of color succeeding. It’s what administrators are always pushing for. They even curve the SAT scores based on race. Affirmative Action was a liberal idea meant to help people of color. But if students of color are still not succeeding, then I think common sense would say there are either issues with the education system these students are part of, or it’s a cultural issue stemming from the home life and educators aren’t really to blame. I tend to fair on the side of things stemming from home, and the educators try new tactics because they feel they’re to blame. Then all of these new tactics never work because nothing is being fixed at home. 80% of black children are raised without a father as of today, compared to 25% of white children raised without a father. I think that has far more bearing on why black student athletes are not succeeding in high school and in college. It’s home life, and it’s cultural.

However, there are other reasons that I don’t care for the current education system that have nothing to do with race right now (other than history classes making sure kids leave high school thinking us white people have been total monsters throughout history). If you want evidence as to why I think Liberals make bad educators here it is.
Evidence: The downhill slide that both common sense and sanity have taken nationwide in the past few decades. To no surprise, and not coincidentally, at the same rate that college educators/high school teachers have become more open to pushing further and further left with their curriculum. For instance, try making sense of Common Core, good luck. If math was ever tough for a decent chunk of kids, have no fear, common core will be sure to ruin any chance a child has at understanding it. Developed by a liberal. Or how about the fact that you can major in Gender Studies. Tell me what successful future that’s setting anyone up for. I’m sure you know that when I say liberal, I don’t mean classical liberalism, I mean modern whacko liberalism. Like the kind that wants to throw more confusion into adolescence by saying there are 700 genders, men can have periods, that there is systemic racism, and that toxic masculinity is a real thing.
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Wow. You claim I have reading comprehension problems. Nice escape move. But, then you go on to criticize liberal educators. First you claim I have problems, but then you go on to prove my statement. You are being critical of liberal educators. You can lay claim to "wacko" liberalism, whatever that might be as you don't really describe what that happens to mean, except for gender, which has very little to do with educational outcome. It has more to do with culture wars (religious ideology) than educational outcomes. Gender issues has nothing to do with math, physics, chemistry, biology, English, art, etc. It may belong in health class, but only as a unit. So, just what are you trying to say? From what I gather, you think 0.001% of the curriculum is responsible for the decline of Western civilization! Did I get that right? I know I got that right.
 

MplsGopher said:
My hat's off to you in overcoming your situation.

Some people don't have your determination. And some people still have it worse than you did. I don't think that's fair to label them as victims, simply because they weren't able to follow your path (and for all we know, they did try).
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Then, does it follow that they will or should be university graduates? I have a sister who is a border line retarded person. Should she be a university graduate? Should we as a society provide her with that opportunity? Should we feel guilty about her situation? Provide her with special tutors? Provide her with an average university graduate's income? What if she were an excellent college age football player? To cut this short, I believe we should provide every American with a good, but always imperfect, opportunity to pick up the ball and carry it to whatever level they are able to achieve. Equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. To me our football players are given more, much more than a fair opportunity to get a good education. That some fail to take that opportunity is all on them.
 

BeerFueledFF said:
To echo this point, most things are political in some way, so calling something political to be dismissive of it is naive at best.
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That is what the word political is derived from: in Greek it is "the people's business".
 

Pompous Elitist said:
I admit that’s my fault.



How do you rectify a stratified by wealth society? Communism? Reparations? Difficult, complicated questions. There is already a huge amount of aid available for low income in terms of tax breaks, mortgage financing, health care. Redistributing wealth is an issue we argue about every day, is necessary to some degree, and it’s a discussion worth having.

But, it’s insulting to say that people here that work in an “eat what you kill” free market economy aren’t hiring and retaining the best and brightest thinkers, workers, and communicators of all races. One can argue there is still inherent racial prejudice which is fair but I take issue with a lot of the other inflammatory woe is me stuff. Some people need to turn the mirror around. This is 100% white peoples fault? Not in a million years. That’s not to say we can’t give a helping hand to deserving climbers.
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I was addressing the comment that it is entirely up to an 'adult' student to catch up to/ keep pace with others that have had a head start. I know you didn't say or imply the following: Not only black students are in that predicament. Without help when you are that far behind, you are doomed to fail no matter what your race or ethnic background is. St. Thomas University is doing some very interesting things to address certain student needs (general student population). It will be interesting to see if it works.

Moving right along. Without getting deep into the admissions process, I am saying that you need to have ways to help students and specifically student athletes be successful. Sometimes money itself isn't the issue at all. Sometimes students just need to have someone hold their hand and walk them through the process(es). Once they are established and or get the remedial attention they need, they do well.

What I was and am trying to say is it appears that the U is doing a good job of assessing the incoming student athletes needs and providing the resources that they need to succeed.
 

GophersInIowa said:
And good for him. I guess my point is the student-athlete still has to want to be a student and succeed in the classroom. The resources are there for football players, it's ultimately up to them to get it done.
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We are on the same page. I was just pointing out that he matured and was successful at playing school. It was his failure is growth moment.
 

mjfelton15 said:
No, but to discuss this topic, which is pushing the political line very hard, politics was going to be mentioned somewhere. Wait what am I saying, it’s a topic that deals with racial issues and education, so it was political from the start.
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Yep, It's woven into the fabric of our nation. I still have hope that we as a nation can keep moving forward. Even if it makes coach Flecks chart look like Iowa farm land.

I was just teasing you because the moment you respond you've jumped into a political pool.

We all love the Gophers! That is the tie that binds. Whether we want to admit it or not, commenting on articles like this is mostly a way to kill time till spring ball.

Cheers!
 

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