Fleck has lost his hunger/edge

[csom_1991]

Haha, no. Fleck has a system, a plan. We may not always like it but he does. Brewster never did.

I disagree. Brewster looked lost because it was his first time being a head coach at this level. As a result, he had no list of names he could immediately call up and fill out a coaching staff with experienced people where he had a prior relationship in a similar capacity. What Fleck has is the ability to bring in a team he knows rather than 100% new people like Brewster. This makes it seem like much better control of a team - because it is.

If you want to debate this - tell me what is Fleck's strong suit? Play calling? Nope. Innovative offensive scheming? Nope. Innovative defensive scheming? Nope. Unusual conditioning program to train up players? Nope.

Everything that we see on the field is determined by the staff with Fleck being basically a CEO role. Where he has a personal touch is in being a recruiting tool and rah-rah inspirational guy - that is exactly the same as Brewster. So, while you may think 'row the boat' is in someway different from 'is your chili hot', the reality is that it is not.

 

[Gophers1992]

I disagree. Brewster looked lost because it was his first time being a head coach at this level. As a result, he had no list of names he could immediately call up and fill out a coaching staff with experienced people where he had a prior relationship in a similar capacity. What Fleck has is the ability to bring in a team he knows rather than 100% new people like Brewster. This makes it seem like much better control of a team - because it is.

If you want to debate this - tell me what is Fleck's strong suit? Play calling? Nope. Innovative offensive scheming? Nope. Innovative defensive scheming? Nope. Unusual conditioning program to train up players? Nope.

Everything that we see on the field is determined by the staff with Fleck being basically a CEO role. Where he has a personal touch is in being a recruiting tool and rah-rah inspirational guy - that is exactly the same as Brewster. So, while you may think 'row the boat' is in someway different from 'is your chili hot', the reality is that it is not.

I can’t tell you what PJ does differently from Brew behind the scenes day to day, but the results have looked a heck of a lot different, so I’m not sure what you’re even trying to get at here.

 

[Gopherchase]

Brew was a bro and ran his team a bit like Animal House. JewJew Edwards and his guys, et al yikes. Plenty of good kids too but I remember the first thing Kill did was clean that nonsense up. Of all PJs faults, he runs a tight ship and the players seem like great citizens overall. When Kill got pissed at PJ it was because of all the talk about culture — regardless of the scandal that ended up exonerating the players Kill had already pretty much installed a positive culture and cleaned things up before got here.

 

[Replacement Gopher]

I disagree. Brewster looked lost because it was his first time being a head coach at this level. As a result, he had no list of names he could immediately call up and fill out a coaching staff with experienced people where he had a prior relationship in a similar capacity. What Fleck has is the ability to bring in a team he knows rather than 100% new people like Brewster. This makes it seem like much better control of a team - because it is.

If you want to debate this - tell me what is Fleck's strong suit? Play calling? Nope. Innovative offensive scheming? Nope. Innovative defensive scheming? Nope. Unusual conditioning program to train up players? Nope.

Everything that we see on the field is determined by the staff with Fleck being basically a CEO role. Where he has a personal touch is in being a recruiting tool and rah-rah inspirational guy - that is exactly the same as Brewster. So, while you may think 'row the boat' is in someway different from 'is your chili hot', the reality is that it is not.

This 100%

 

[MNVCGUY]

If the offense makes a few first downs NW doesn’t have three possessions to score three times.

No doubt it was a team loss. Offense needs to make more plays in the 4th quarter. Punt team needs to pin them at the 1 instead of allowing the touchback....

But the defense deserves the bulk of the blame for this one because a 21 point lead in the 4th quarter should have been enough. Since Rossi took over the D has been very reliable in those situations, unfortunately in this case they weren't and the last 2 weeks have shown some major flaws in the pass defense.

Getting lit up by Drake Maye is one thing.....when Ben Bryant does it that is much more concerning.

 

[Gophers1992]

Brew was a bro and ran his team a bit like Animal House. JewJew Edwards and his guys, et al yikes. Plenty of good kids too but I remember the first thing Kill did was clean that nonsense up. Of all PJs faults, he runs a tight ship and the players seem like great citizens overall. When Kill got pissed at PJ it was because of all the talk about culture — regardless of the scandal that ended up exonerating the players Kill had already pretty much installed a positive culture and cleaned things up before got here.

Every single coach that takes over a program in any sport talks about changing the culture. It's a coachspeak buzzword. Jerry Kill is the only one with thin enough skin to actually interpret that as a shot at him.

 

[MaxyJR1]

How are you defining "traditional Mason loss"? Because, this is far from the first loss where they were supposed to be walking away with a lopsided win:

2018: At Illinois: Lost by 24. Favored big. Fired the DC.
2021: Bowling Green at home: Lost by 4. Should have slaughtered them.

There could be more, but for sure these two. The biggest problem with Fleck is his determined loyalty. Held on to the OC for two seasons before firing him. He refuses to see it. It will be the same with Harbaugh. No creativity in his play calling, that's the problem. He won't see this soon enough. Really hope that I'm wrong, would be happy to eat crow on this one, but I don't see it.

Blown big lead or 4th quarter collapse is what I was referring to.

 

[UpAndUnder43]

 

[GopherPoke]

It is now my goal to make this twitter page. Not likely, as I rarely say stupid shit.

 

[GophersInIowa]

I disagree. Brewster looked lost because it was his first time being a head coach at this level. As a result, he had no list of names he could immediately call up and fill out a coaching staff with experienced people where he had a prior relationship in a similar capacity. What Fleck has is the ability to bring in a team he knows rather than 100% new people like Brewster. This makes it seem like much better control of a team - because it is.

If you want to debate this - tell me what is Fleck's strong suit? Play calling? Nope. Innovative offensive scheming? Nope. Innovative defensive scheming? Nope. Unusual conditioning program to train up players? Nope.

Everything that we see on the field is determined by the staff with Fleck being basically a CEO role. Where he has a personal touch is in being a recruiting tool and rah-rah inspirational guy - that is exactly the same as Brewster. So, while you may think 'row the boat' is in someway different from 'is your chili hot', the reality is that it is not.

I can't believe this is even a discussion.

That makes sense in year 1 and 2 but Brewster had no idea what he wanted to do in year 4. Just things as simple as to what practices looked like were a disaster.

I already told you what Fleck's strong suit is. He knows what he wants to do, he knows the type of players he wants and he's implemented it. It's fair to criticize what it is he wants to do. I am. He's stubborn.

He and his staff have developed much better than Brewster (it's not even close). As we saw with the coveted 2008 recruiting class, just chasing recruiting stars doesn't automatically result in success. So getting the right guys is also important. Fleck has done a good job with that. But I will be the first to say I thought we would be recruiting at a higher level in year 7.

Fleck deserves criticism, that I'm not disputing. The comparison is laughable though IMO.

 

[FireDaveLee]

I was extremely disappointed on Saturday night just as much as everyone else was, but my goodness....the last few days, I've read that:

• Fleck has lost his hunger & desire (is mailing it in)
• It's time for Coyle to hit the road & bring Fleck with him
• The staff is focused on heading to Michigan State
• George Floyd has affected him
• We should bring back Tracy Claeys....his defenses never would give up 21 in a quarter (which was proven wrong within 15 seconds)
• Fleck & Brewster is a valid comparison...this one with a straight face (I'm actually probably one of the biggest Brewster defenders here & think he wasn't AS bad as everyone remembers)

 

[Gold Rush]

Took 7 years to get our first traditional Mason loss. Defense is leaky this year for big plays and teams now see the blood.

Actually the Gopher played a similar game to this vs. Maryland in the covid year and lost in OT 45-44. This game reminded me of that one. But yeah -- this one felt like a Mason-type game that's for sure!!

 

[MaxyJR1]

Actually the Gopher played a similar game to this vs. Maryland in the covid year and lost in OT 45-44. This game reminded me of that one. But yeah -- this one felt like a Mason-type game that's for sure!!

Correct. Down 14 in the 1st, up 7 at the half, up 17 entering the 4th. I tend to not look at anything from the COVID year.

 

[Gold Rush]

Correct. Down 14 in the 1st, up 7 at the half, up 17 entering the 4th. I tend to not look at anything from the COVID year.

I hear you -- it was a strange year, that's for sure!

 

[btowngopher]

I disagree. Brewster looked lost because it was his first time being a head coach at this level. As a result, he had no list of names he could immediately call up and fill out a coaching staff with experienced people where he had a prior relationship in a similar capacity. What Fleck has is the ability to bring in a team he knows rather than 100% new people like Brewster. This makes it seem like much better control of a team - because it is.

If you want to debate this - tell me what is Fleck's strong suit? Play calling? Nope. Innovative offensive scheming? Nope. Innovative defensive scheming? Nope. Unusual conditioning program to train up players? Nope.

Everything that we see on the field is determined by the staff with Fleck being basically a CEO role. Where he has a personal touch is in being a recruiting tool and rah-rah inspirational guy - that is exactly the same as Brewster. So, while you may think 'row the boat' is in someway different from 'is your chili hot', the reality is that it is not.

It’s also the same as Dabo Swinney and quite a few other HCs that never were HCs previously or coordinators. Except Fleck was a HC previously, but yes these types are brought in to be CEOs basically, obviously we have seen this result in championships some places and horrible seasons other places and everything between.

 

[Go Gophs]

I was extremely disappointed on Saturday night just as much as everyone else was, but my goodness....the last few days, I've read that:

• Fleck has lost his hunger & desire (is mailing it in)
• It's time for Coyle to hit the road & bring Fleck with him
• The staff is focused on heading to Michigan State
• George Floyd has affected him
• We should bring back Tracy Claeys....his defenses never would give up 21 in a quarter (which was proven wrong within 15 seconds)
• Fleck & Brewster is a valid comparison...this one with a straight face (I'm actually probably one of the biggest Brewster defenders here & think he wasn't AS bad as everyone remembers)

Good post. It's unreal some of the things thrown out there this week.

Was it a disappointing loss? Oh heck yeah, I was angry and every other gopher fan was too. But I am not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water. I've suffered through some absolute terrible Gopher football over the years and prefer not to go back to that.

Flat out it has a better than 50% chance of doing that if you get rid of Fleck in my opinion.

 

[Gophers1992]

I was extremely disappointed on Saturday night just as much as everyone else was, but my goodness....the last few days, I've read that:

• Fleck has lost his hunger & desire (is mailing it in)
• It's time for Coyle to hit the road & bring Fleck with him
• The staff is focused on heading to Michigan State
• George Floyd has affected him
• We should bring back Tracy Claeys....his defenses never would give up 21 in a quarter (which was proven wrong within 15 seconds)
• Fleck & Brewster is a valid comparison...this one with a straight face (I'm actually probably one of the biggest Brewster defenders here & think he wasn't AS bad as everyone remembers)

Post of the week. And you're correct about Brew. People overstate how bad he was.

 

[Otis]

The offense has some growing pains and who lines up at RB this Saturday is going to be interesting. But this loss wasn't cause the Gophers took the foot off the gas.

This loss was completely on pass defense.
21 points in 13 minutes.
396 passing yards and 4 TDs to clearly confused schemes and/or players.
80 yard TD bomb.

While I can appreciate a desire for a more competent offense, the pass coverage is at red alert. I just hope it doesn't get to abandon ship.

Sounds strikingly familiar to another football team!

 

[gopherbadgerman]

I'll agree there were some decisions in the game that were questionable. But Fleck has, and will, be the same coach. In my opinion his biggest failure (besides beating Iowa) has been the level of players he has recruited here. I thought it would be better. He actually doing better than expected based only on recruiting rankings.

 

[Taji34]

Both Coach Fleck and AD Coyle are applying for their next job. They are not concerned about the present state of Minnesota football. Both will not be here a year from now.

Why don't you put some money where your mouth is? I'm down for a bet against this.

 

[Tommyboy]

Maybe his fridge ran out of Red Bull.

 

[Laker]

Last year I advocated on this forum for the Gophers to go after Luke Fickel. This was before Wisconsin was talking to him. A roll of the dice move for sure but needed for the Gophers to move to the next level. I even mentioned that Gophs might be doomed to being a 2nd level team once the West Coast teams entered the league. Fleck is not a bad guy but just a slightly above average D1 coach. I was criticized heavily for this. That’s not going to cut it going forward. Losing to this year’s Northwestern team is a disgrace. Time to go after Brian Hartline. A proven top line recruiter and offensive coach. Probably save some money over Flecks bloated salary too.

 

[Dakota2]

Alight, admit some hyperbole. But... under Fleck, Rossi, and our OCs which is more likely over 13 minutes:

Gophers defense stopping 224 yards
Gophers offense being productive

The offense. AK was 13 of 16 at that point. That’s 81%, including CAB’s drop. He had also run for 34 yards. They had scored 31 points. No Brainerd.

 

[csom_1991]

I can't believe this is even a discussion.

That makes sense in year 1 and 2 but Brewster had no idea what he wanted to do in year 4. Just things as simple as to what practices looked like were a disaster.

I already told you what Fleck's strong suit is. He knows what he wants to do, he knows the type of players he wants and he's implemented it. It's fair to criticize what it is he wants to do. I am. He's stubborn.

He and his staff have developed much better than Brewster (it's not even close). As we saw with the coveted 2008 recruiting class, just chasing recruiting stars doesn't automatically result in success. So getting the right guys is also important. Fleck has done a good job with that. But I will be the first to say I thought we would be recruiting at a higher level in year 7.

Fleck deserves criticism, that I'm not disputing. The comparison is laughable though IMO.

What Fleck did was take advantage of the nature of Minnesotans to accept something slightly better than mediocre without complaining too loudly. That was the main difference between the recruitment of Brewster and Fleck. What Fleck has consistently recruited was a team that would be good enough to win the MAC. While Brewster failed spectacularly in reaching for guys with character flaws - at least he tried and succeeded in bringing in guys that had higher upside potential. Fleck isn't even trying.

Second, Brewster came in and threw the baby out with the bathwater by changing the proven ZBS and offensive player development for a 'modern offense' the team completely lacked the personnel to implement due to prior years of recruiting for a different system. This is all on Brewster's poor decision-making and he should have brought in competent assistance or kept on some from the prior staff to bring a sense of continuity - but, as I said, he had no prior HC experience so he brought chaos instead. If he had a competent staff, they would run the day to day operations and that is the main difference between Fleck and Brewster.

But, as to my original point, Fleck only brings the ability to be a CEO - he brings nothing else special to the table. When we had Mason, we were average but had an identity as RB U and it would have translated into better talent had Mason actually tried putting effort into recruiting (also if he had half of the resources and facilities as the later coaches). But at least with Mason I felt we had the chance to develop into an elite level program.

With Fleck, we now know his upside - he is recruiting to win the MAC and our offense and defense will be exactly the same as about 100 other programs with the exception that we are exceptionally bad at making in game adjustments. He has no desire to aim higher because he knows Minnesotans will accept slightly above mediocrity so long as you don't embarrass the university. If Kill did not have his health issues - he would still be coaching here today with win totals of 7 or 8 a year, recruiting about the same as Fleck, and the same ZERO percent probability of ever actually competing with the helmet schools. It is what it is - it is the nature of Minnesotans. I accept it. But, don't go thinking Fleck brings anything to the table other than being a rah-rah 'motivator' type and recruiter (that can't actually recruit). He is also, who he is - which is why I doubt he will ever receive an offer to coach at a better program than Minnesota.

 

[gopherbadgerman]

My god thats stupid IMO

 

[btowngopher]

What Fleck did was take advantage of the nature of Minnesotans to accept something slightly better than mediocre without complaining too loudly.

Yeah 11 wins and top ten finish is slightly better than mediocre. Not complaining too loudly? People are calling for him to be fired already.

That was the main difference between the recruitment of Brewster and Fleck. What Fleck has consistently recruited was a team that would be good enough to win the MAC. While Brewster failed spectacularly in reaching for guys with character flaws - at least he tried and succeeded in bringing in guys that had higher upside potential. Fleck isn't even trying.

Then why are Fleck’s classes finishing similar to where Brew’s finished? Also Brew was THE recruiting guru, that is what he was very well known for. He had one high ranked class even though it wasn’t all that impactful. Fleck recruited well in the MAC, but he didn’t recruit great nationally. People have a made up memory that he was thought of as this master recruiter, he was never that.

Second, Brewster came in and threw the baby out with the bathwater by changing the proven ZBS and offensive player development for a 'modern offense' the team completely lacked the personnel to implement due to prior years of recruiting for a different system. This is all on Brewster's poor decision-making and he should have brought in competent assistance or kept on some from the prior staff to bring a sense of continuity - but, as I said, he had no prior HC experience so he brought chaos instead. If he had a competent staff, they would run the day to day operations and that is the main difference between Fleck and Brewster.

But, as to my original point, Fleck only brings the ability to be a CEO - he brings nothing else special to the table.

There have been many CEO type coaches that have had great success.

When we had Mason, we were average but had an identity as RB U and it would have translated into better talent had Mason actually tried putting effort into recruiting (also if he had half of the resources and facilities as the later coaches). But at least with Mason I felt we had the chance to develop into an elite level program.

Yes Mason had us close with the 10-3 year 7. The next three years he couldn’t win more than seven games, were we still close to elite? Fleck had us at an elite level one year and a couple close years with 9 wins. You think now there is no chance for another elite season just a year removed from 9 wins?

With Fleck, we now know his upside - he is recruiting to win the MAC

Again his upside was top 10 in the country, not sure why people want to act like he hasn’t accomplished something already.

and our offense and defense will be exactly the same as about 100 other programs with the exception that we are exceptionally bad at making in game adjustments. He has no desire to aim higher because he knows Minnesotans will accept slightly above mediocrity so long as you don't embarrass the university. If Kill did not have his health issues - he would still be coaching here today with win totals of 7 or 8 a year, recruiting about the same as Fleck, and the same ZERO percent probability of ever actually competing with the helmet schools.

Again people are calling for his head already. Zero chance Kill would still be here with just 7 and 8 win seasons, Claeys was canned after winning 9.

It is what it is - it is the nature of Minnesotans. I accept it. But, don't go thinking Fleck brings anything to the table other than being a rah-rah 'motivator' type and recruiter (that can't actually recruit). He is also, who he is - which is why I doubt he will ever receive an offer to coach at a better program than Minnesota.

Guy wins a pretty good amount of games for not bringing anything to the table.

 

[csom_1991]

Yeah 11 wins and top ten finish is slightly better than mediocre. Not complaining too loudly? People are calling for him to be fired already.

Then why are Fleck’s classes finishing similar to where Brew’s finished? Also Brew was THE recruiting guru, that is what he was very well known for. He had one high ranked class even though it wasn’t all that impactful. Fleck recruited well in the MAC, but he didn’t recruit great nationally. People have a made up memory that he was thought of as this master recruiter, he was never that.

There have been many CEO type coaches that have had great success.

Yes Mason had us close with the 10-3 year 7. The next three years he couldn’t win more than seven games, were we still close to elite? Fleck had us at an elite level one year and a couple close years with 9 wins. You think now there is no chance for another elite season just a year removed from 9 wins?

Again his upside was top 10 in the country, not sure why people want to act like he hasn’t accomplished something already.

Again people are calling for his head already. Zero chance Kill would still be here with just 7 and 8 win seasons, Claeys was canned after winning 9.

Guy wins a pretty good amount of games for not bringing anything to the table.

11 wins is an anomaly - and while great, a lot of it is due to a diluted B1G and a favorable schedule. We literally had 4 meaningful games: PSU, AU (which didn't care about the bowl), IA, and WI - and we went 2 and 2, albeit winning the 2 meaningful ones. But, even looking at that team - how much was Fleck and how much was due to the prior recruiting from Kill/Claeys? Mo, Smith, Johnson, Winfield - all huge contributors not brought in by PJ.

As for comparisons to Mason - he was literally showing recruits the Metrodome running monster truck shows and had none of the facilities or admin support of PJ or Kill. That is why Mason was trying to run for tOSU and clearly lost interest in MN after he was rejected, which is why his recruiting became so bad. Put Mason in today's B1G with the facilities and admin support given to PJ and I doubt the results would be worse than what PJ achieved. Literally, if Mason had the same budget for assistants that PJ had, he could have outsourced recruiting completely and had better results.

As for the 'recruiting guru' of Fleck - this is due to Fleck winning the MAC through better recruiting than other MAC teams - you know, have better recruits and win more games as a result. People expected this recruiting to scale up to the B1G level with PJ on a bigger stage, but his recruiting stayed at the MAC level. This is why I don't consider him a recruiting guru despite what others expected.

But this brings it back to my main point - Fleck is supposed to be able to recruit (but he can't) and his key to winning is creating a culture (rah-rah type guy). He is not going to get you to the top by out-scheming the competition on O or D or through better player development. All he brings to the table is his culture and stability through his assistants. As such, he is clone of Brewster (if Brewster had more capable assistants) - not Mason - who actually did try to out scheme his opponents (ZBS) and did win by better player development.

And this is fine - Fleck is what he is, which is why I don't get disappointed when we are lucky to be 2-2 in year 7 after blowing a game to NW.

 

[csom_1991]

Oh - and I should add - Claeys was fired for embarrassing the University - refer to my prior caveat. If not for the gang-bang scandal, Claeys would still be coaching here as well.

 

[btowngopher]

Oh - and I should add - Claeys was fired for embarrassing the University - refer to my prior caveat. If not for the gang-bang scandal, Claeys would still be coaching here as well.

Nah that was just a convenient event for Coyle to bring in his own guy. Claeys would’ve been fired the next year at the latest.

 

[btowngopher]

11 wins is an anomaly - and while great, a lot of it is due to a diluted B1G and a favorable schedule. We literally had 4 meaningful games: PSU, AU (which didn't care about the bowl), IA, and WI - and we went 2 and 2, albeit winning the 2 meaningful ones. But, even looking at that team - how much was Fleck and how much was due to the prior recruiting from Kill/Claeys? Mo, Smith, Johnson, Winfield - all huge contributors not brought in by PJ.

If you find a coach who can win 11 games once every 7 years here we should build him a statue. Mo was a Fleck recruit as was much of that team including Bateman and Morgan.

As for comparisons to Mason - he was literally showing recruits the Metrodome running monster truck shows and had none of the facilities or admin support of PJ or Kill. That is why Mason was trying to run for tOSU and clearly lost interest in MN after he was rejected, which is why his recruiting became so bad. Put Mason in today's B1G with the facilities and admin support given to PJ and I doubt the results would be worse than what PJ achieved. Literally, if Mason had the same budget for assistants that PJ had, he could have outsourced recruiting completely and had better results.

I don’t really care what Mason’s challenges were, facts are Fleck has won more.

As for the 'recruiting guru' of Fleck - this is due to Fleck winning the MAC through better recruiting than other MAC teams - you know, have better recruits and win more games as a result. People expected this recruiting to scale up to the B1G level with PJ on a bigger stage, but his recruiting stayed at the MAC level. This is why I don't consider him a recruiting guru despite what others expected.

It hasn’t stayed at a MAC level. But I agree he isn’t a recruiting guru and never should have been considered one since he never recruited at a P5 school or landed P5 level of classes at WMU.

But this brings it back to my main point - Fleck is supposed to be able to recruit (but he can't) and his key to winning is creating a culture (rah-rah type guy). He is not going to get you to the top by out-scheming the competition on O or D or through better player development. All he brings to the table is his culture and stability through his assistants. As such, he is clone of Brewster (if Brewster had more capable assistants) - not Mason - who actually did try to out scheme his opponents (ZBS) and did win by better player development.

The only thing he has in common with Brew is that neither are known for X’s and O’s. I don’t remember Brew being about culture, stability, and development. Fleck has his ball control style, Brew came in wanting to run spread but then changed with OC changes. Mason had OC experience so he did bring his own scheme. As far as player development, Fleck is on par with Mason and well ahead of Brew. But again I don’t think you need to be a superior X’s and O’s Head coach to be successful as history has shown.