Coyle should be ashamed….

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Bob_Loblaw said:
Occam's razor.

Maybe Coyle fell in love with Ben Johnson but it was counter to every other hire he has ever made.
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I'm a skeptic of Occam's razor, which some people seem to accept as proven. My experience is that sometimes things are simple, and sometimes they're complicated.
 


disco said:
If someone is complaining about "wokeness" it's a clue that I don't need to take their opinion seriously.
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While that phrase feels a little 4Chan Circa 2012, the issue is universally accepted as an important and divisive issue in the country.

To it's proponents, they will call it "equity" or "inclusion" and to its opponents they'll call it "wokeness" or "PC culture", etc. This is talked about endlessly in every major corporation, every academic institution, within sports, movies, media, etc.

To act like anyone who mentions it can't be taken seriously feels like something you are just saying. It's everywhere - regardless of what side of the line you're on.
 

GopherGod said:
The AAU coaches in the state deserve some heat as well. Ben was their guy that they wanted for the job and then they have failed to consistently send a large number of their elite players to the program.
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If this was essentially say 70-90% of "the bet" on Ben Johnson ....

how could they not have seen that it wasn't going to work??


You can't make kids go to a school that they don't want to go to.

Kids who grow up in Minnesota want to leave the state. It's a natural urge, independent of anything else.
 


Bad Gopher said:
I'm a skeptic of Occam's razor, which some people seem to accept as proven. My experience is that sometimes things are simple, and sometimes they're complicated.
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It's true. We'll never know why Ben Johnson was hired. It was such an obviously awful choice that we are all left here to speculate.

If Dennis Gates gets hired, it's not the same type of thing. When Tubby was hired, it wasn't the same type of thing.

With Ben Johnson's resume, you really have two options:

(1) It was mandated; or
(2) Coyle broke from what we know about him and went out on a long limb.

Most likely, we'll never know which one it was but we all have our opinions.
 

Bad Gopher said:
It's an unproven hypothesis that some people are writing into the textbooks as established fact.
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The administration (and the entire nation really) watched the city be paralyzed by fear and terrorized for months by rioting, looting, violence and vandalism. There wasn't a snowball's chance in hell that the hire wasn't going to go the way that it did.
 


as I see/understand it:

-big gripe with Pitino was "he can't recruit the local kids" and "doesn't network with HS and AAU coaches"
-so Coyle was looking for a coach who could recruit MN and have better relationships with local coaches.
- Ben J. convinced Coyle that he could accomplish that with his ties to the state and bringing in Thorson as an assistant.
-Johnson was willing to come in at a lower salary.

--AND Ben J. is a minority coach. Whether you like it or not, the U of MN was, at the least, very interested in hiring a minority coach.

so Ben J. checked all the boxes. the drawback was his lack of experience as a Head Coach. Whatever happened in the interview, Johnson convinced Coyle he could do the job.

If I'm a used car salesman and I sell you a lemon, you can blame me - or you can blame yourself for agreeing to the deal. right now, all of the heat is on Johnson. I think Coyle deserves a lot more heat than he's getting, as he hides in the secret underground hermetically-sealed bunker.
 



Ogee Ogilthorpe said:
The administration (and the entire nation really) watched the city be paralyzed by fear and terrorized for months by rioting, looting, violence and vandalism. There wasn't a snowball's chance in hell that the hire wasn't going to go the way that it did.
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Good hypothesis! You could fashion that into a research problem statement with a little work.
 


short ornery norwegian said:
as I see/understand it:

-big gripe with Pitino was "he can't recruit the local kids" and "doesn't network with HS and AAU coaches"
-so Coyle was looking for a coach who could recruit MN and have better relationships with local coaches.
- Ben J. convinced Coyle that he could accomplish that with his ties to the state and bringing in Thorson as an assistant.
-Johnson was willing to come in at a lower salary.
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I don't see how Craig Smith doesn't/couldn't just as easily check all those boxes.

We easily could've afforded what Utah paid him. I don't think it was much more than what BJ took here.

short ornery norwegian said:
--AND Ben J. is a minority coach. Whether you like it or not, the U of MN was, at the least, very interested in hiring a minority coach.
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Well ... yeah. And then there's this.

Craig Smith is as white as a human can get. So is Brian Dutcher, plus he's old! Old white men, yuck!

(Sorry, I'm just "paraphrasing" the "vibe of modern times" no personal offense is meant toward you or anyone on GH)
 

Coyle has done a great job with Fleck and Motzko.

Just not sure what he's thinking in basketball. Needs to reset on both men's and women's.
*EDIT- I should add that I was very supportive of Whalen being hired. Just hasn't worked. Ben...not so much.

I wouldn't get rid of him, but let's stick to the football and hockey idea with coaches who have actually built a successful program before. No need to be so risky.
 
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Gophers_4life said:
If this was essentially say 70-90% of "the bet" on Ben Johnson ....

how could they not have seen that it wasn't going to work??


You can't make kids go to a school that they don't want to go to.

Kids who grow up in Minnesota want to leave the state. It's a natural urge, independent of anything else.
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This sentiment drives me crazy. Kids have a mind of their own, independent of their parental or coach's influence. Not to mention the opportunity to play all across the country and offers to play at places with so much more success than here. But yet we are still stuck in this stupid mindset of needing to hire a coach because he played here or grew up here, even if that means hiring a vastly unqualified coach for both BB programs. Nine out of fourteen scholarship players from Minnesota on this team and historically bad results. Not because these kids are from MN. It's because we have a vastly inferior coach (at this point in his career) to other conference foes. A DeLaSalle address doesn't change that.
 


skiumah1 said:
Coyle has done a great job with Fleck and Motzko.

Just not sure what he's thinking in basketball. Needs to reset on both men's and women's.

I wouldn't get rid of him, but let's stick to the football and hockey idea with coaches who have actually built a successful program before. No need to be so risky.
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This!!!

It kinda boggles the mind, doesn't it?

i) have tremendous success by hiring a coach who has proven himself very successful at St Cloud State and Western Michigan respectively, let them build up the Gopher program the same way they did in those places

ii) hire someone with zero head coaching experience because they are locals.


Gee I don't know. Maybe i) is better?
 


Gophers_4life said:
This!!!

It kinda boggles the mind, doesn't it?

i) have tremendous success by hiring a coach who has proven himself very successful at St Cloud State and Western Michigan respectively, let them build up the Gopher program the same way they did in those places

ii) hire someone with zero head coaching experience because they are locals.


Gee I don't know. Maybe i) is better?
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Exactly. Truthfully I didn't mind the Whalen hire with her background.

The Ben hire shocked me.
 

skiumah1 said:
Coyle has done a great job with Fleck and Motzko.

Just not sure what he's thinking in basketball. Needs to reset on both men's and women's.
*EDIT- I should add that I was very supportive of Whalen being hired. Just hasn't worked.

I wouldn't get rid of him, but let's stick to the football and hockey idea with coaches who have actually built a successful program before. No need to be so risky.
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100% agree. The blueprint was there and had been executed successfully.

Sometimes I wonder if people get so enamored with their success that they abandon the logic that got them there in favor of "gut feels" which, while certainly fairy tale in nature, have a nasty habit of winning big once in a blue moon while failing even bigger more often than not.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
While that phrase feels a little 4Chan Circa 2012, the issue is universally accepted as an important and divisive issue in the country.

To it's proponents, they will call it "equity" or "inclusion" and to its opponents they'll call it "wokeness" or "PC culture", etc. This is talked about endlessly in every major corporation, every academic institution, within sports, movies, media, etc.

To act like anyone who mentions it can't be taken seriously feels like something you are just saying. It's everywhere - regardless of what side of the line you're on.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with much of what you have written above but when one starts a discussion with "wokeness" or "PC culture," it sends a clear message that the person is more interested in a diatribe than a discussion.
 

skiumah1 said:
Exactly. Truthfully I didn't mind the Whalen hire with her background.

The Ben hire shocked me.
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The Whalen hire was legit. Top five all time Gopher women's basketball player. Helped lead the Lynx to multiple WNBA titles. A top figure in the women's game. You would think that girls would want to come play for someone who had done it all.

Ben was an average player on average to below average teams who was working as an assistant at a Big East school.

The only similarity between Whalen and Ben is that they are both from here and played for the Gophers. That's where it ends.
 

Ogee Ogilthorpe said:
The administration (and the entire nation really) watched the city be paralyzed by fear and terrorized for months by rioting, looting, violence and vandalism. There wasn't a snowball's chance in hell that the hire wasn't going to go the way that it did.
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Madison was looking for a pres at the time and went shelved it for 2 yrs. Gave Tommy Thompson the interim job. Pretty smart to avoid being strong armed into a possible less than great hire.
 

disco said:
The Whalen hire was legit. Top five all time Gopher women's basketball player. Helped lead the Lynx to multiple WNBA titles. A top figure in the women's game. You would think that girls would want to come play for someone who had done it all.

Ben was an average player on average to below average teams who was working as an assistant at a Big East school.

The only similarity between Whalen and Ben is that they are both from here and played for the Gophers. That's where it ends.
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A great player doesn't mean squat in coaching.

Sorry. Agree to disagree on that establishing "legitness".
 


GoldenUMNGopher said:
You are assuming Joan didnt force Coyle in a certain direction of hire.....fits some of the other policies she put in place around the time of hire
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"Force?" I doubt it. I know nothing about the U of M president but I suspect she is far more skilled in subtle persuasion and achieving "consensus" than you think.
 

cjbfbp said:
I don't disagree with much of what you have written above but when one starts a discussion with "wokeness" or "PC culture," it sends a clear message that the person is more interested in a diatribe than a discussion.
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Sure, but you realize the other side feels the same way about terms like "equity" and "inclusiveness"?

You're quibbling about the terms because it lets you know the other side's argument before it starts. The other side, also doesn't feel like they get a discussion. Do you think those mandatory "inclusiveness" seminars that were rolled out at every major corporation/law firm/etc. feel like a discussion? Or do you think they felt like a lecture?

My entire point is that the terms that make your skin crawl - - whether they are "equity", "snowflake", "inclusion", or "woke" are just stand ins for the arguments you hate depending on where you stand on the issue.
 

cjbfbp said:
"Force?" I doubt it. I know nothing about the U of M president but I suspect she is far more skilled in subtle persuasion and achieving "consensus" than you think.
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The skill in subtle persuasion is exactly that though.

You "force" people to do things in subtle terms and it's even better if you can get it to look like consensus.
 

Gophers_4life said:
A great player doesn't mean squat in coaching.

Sorry. Agree to disagree on that establishing "legitness".
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Of course not. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. It didn't work in this case. In the case of say, Jim Harbaugh, it worked very well.
 

DarthGopher said:
100% agree. The blueprint was there and had been executed successfully.

Sometimes I wonder if people get so enamored with their success that they abandon the logic that got them there in favor of "gut feels" which, while certainly fairy tale in nature, have a nasty habit of winning big once in a blue moon while failing even bigger more often than not.
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Interesting point and I could buy it.

I just hope Coyle is self-aware and humble enough to see his error on this one and correct it as soon as possible.

Maybe 2 years isn't enough and Coyle isn't ready to pull the trigger on Ben. That might be fair. But he better actually think Ben can still do it.

However, I think there's enough evidence at this point to call this thing off.
 


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