2024 MN High School Basketball State Tournaments

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GophersInIowa said:
Not sure how'd you find 5-15 minutes for him in that situation. He's probably going to be a 5-15 minutes guy as it is without another backup.
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There are 30+ games each year each with 40 minutes that each have 5 players on the floor at a time. That is a lot of minutes for a lot of players! You have injuries, sickness, lop sided margin games both ways winning and losing, you have different matchups in opponents, you have players that get hot and cold.

People complain about Izzo and MSU but Izzo had 11 players getting 9+ minutes a game to our 9 players. Only Walker was above 30/min a game. His two with 9 minutes a game were still getting meaning minutes in big ten tourney and NCAA tourney games were gophers 9th player Ihnen who says 11.5/game wasn't seeing anything so really we were at 8. JOJ was getting like 2/game in final stretch so really 7. Ben needs to add depth and make sure players are developing or at some point going to be really hurting again.
 


007gopherfan said:
There are 30+ games each year each with 40 minutes that each have 5 players on the floor at a time. That is a lot of minutes for a lot of players! You have injuries, sickness, lop sided margin games both ways winning and losing, you have different matchups in opponents, you have players that get hot and cold.

People complain about Izzo and MSU but Izzo had 11 players getting 9+ minutes a game to our 9 players. Only Walker was above 30/min a game. His two with 9 minutes a game were still getting meaning minutes in big ten tourney and NCAA tourney games were gophers 9th player Ihnen who says 11.5/game wasn't seeing anything so really we were at 8. JOJ was getting like 2/game in final stretch so really 7. Ben needs to add depth and make sure players are developing or at some point going to be really hurting again.
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Hawkins and Asuma are both point guards specifically. You're not going to play them at the same time a whole lot if at all. So it's 40 minutes at the PG spot. Hawkins will play 30 minutes minimum. At most that leaves 10 minutes for Asuma. Add another guy to the mix, he's getting even less.

They need more depth, I agree. Just not at PG specifically. Maybe a combo guard that can play PG at times in case Asuma can't handle the backup right away.

My point is if you bring in a 3rd PG, getting consistent minutes for all three is going to be nearly impossible.
 

GophersInIowa said:
Hawkins and Asuma are both point guards specifically. You're not going to play them at the same time a whole lot if at all. So it's 40 minutes at the PG spot. Hawkins will play 30 minutes minimum. At most that leaves 10 minutes for Asuma. Add another guy to the mix, he's getting even less.

They need more depth, I agree. Just not at PG specifically. Maybe a combo guard that can play PG at times in case Asuma can't handle the backup right away.

My point is if you bring in a 3rd PG, getting consistent minutes for all three is going to be nearly impossible.
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Can’t Asuma be a combo? I’ve not seen him play but it seems he has strength and scoring ability to be a shooting guard as well.
 

I think Asuma - at least for his first year - is definitely a combo guard. He can play 5 to 10 minutes as the primary PG so they don't run Hawkins into the ground. and then Asuma can give them 10 to 15 minutes as a SG/Wing.

I think he is sound defensively, but overall he will need to get used to playing against guys who are bigger, stronger and especially quicker. his ball-handling is decent, but will also need to improve when facing P5-level competition.

the other issue is outside shooting. a lot of his points in HS came on drives to the basket and rebounds. he wasn't a big 3-pt shooter in the games I watched.

Hey - he has the athletic ability. I just think there will have to be adjustments to his game after going from playing Class A ball in MN to the B1G.
 


Holy Man said:
Can’t Asuma be a combo? I’ve not seen him play but it seems he has strength and scoring ability to be a shooting guard as well.
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Maybe? Everything I've seen and read has him as a PG specifically. Either way, I just think if we're going to bring in an experienced guard, it should be more of a shooter than a backup PG like it was suggested by the other poster.
 

Assuma is 6-3 and at least 185. He will be a nice option at either guard spot. Mitchell is pretty undersized as a SG.
 

march madness said:
Assuma is 6-3 and at least 185. He will be a nice option at either guard spot. Mitchell is pretty undersized as a SG.
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Well maybe I'm wrong then. I'm not saying he can't play the #2 but I don't see him playing there a lot. I'd rather he get the backup PG minutes than bringing in another PG.
 

GophersInIowa said:
Well maybe I'm wrong then. I'm not saying he can't play the #2 but I don't see him playing there a lot. I'd rather he get the backup PG minutes than bringing in another PG.
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I think the goal is to have 3 guards on the floor and there to not be a PG heavy offense where one guy has the ball a ton. No reason Asuma and Hawkins can't be on the floor at the same time.

We'll see who comes back, but we need five guys rotating those 3 positions.
 



MaxyJR1 said:
I think the goal is to have 3 guards on the floor and there to not be a PG heavy offense where one guy has the ball a ton. No reason Asuma and Hawkins can't be on the floor at the same time.

We'll see who comes back, but we need five guys rotating those 3 positions.
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Exactly why they are in the portal heavy for guards.
 

MplsGopher said:
Didn’t Totino have some stars that were transfers in who came with the AAU coach they hired?
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Totino, DeLassale, Cretin etc. get transfers (older that Freshman) every year and people don't sit out. Same for Holy Family, who has received transfers from Edina (a Junior) and Champlain Park and East Ridge (both Seniors) the past two seasons.

Prep Hoops (Ironically, run by the Totino coach) runs a series of transfer lists every year.
 

Holy Man said:
Can’t Asuma be a combo? I’ve not seen him play but it seems he has strength and scoring ability to be a shooting guard as well.
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Absolutely. I think he'll see a lot of his minutes with Hawkins. My opinion, from the little I've seen, is that he might even be a more natural SG. He'll be a SG with some point skills, but I think his future is likely on the wing.
 




MplsGopher said:
How does it work if you switch from your local public to a private school halfway across the metro?

There is no district to move into
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The quest of MplsGopher to rid this state of religiously affiliated students never ends…,
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Absolutely. I think he'll see a lot of his minutes with Hawkins. My opinion, from the little I've seen, is that he might even be a more natural SG. He'll be a SG with some point skills, but I think his future is likely on the wing.
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I don't think so. Asuma isn't a prolific 3pt shooter. He is an excellent distributor and he can drive then dish. He can make a few 3s if open, but it's not where he's buttered his bread.

Thankfully Ben's offensive sets aren't predicated in a guard at the point. He uses a 4 out 1 in motion.
 

How many high schools did Washington commit Chavis play for? Think he'll still go to Washington with their coaching change?
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Absolutely. I think he'll see a lot of his minutes with Hawkins. My opinion, from the little I've seen, is that he might even be a more natural SG. He'll be a SG with some point skills, but I think his future is likely on the wing.
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Asuma has a skill set we have not had. He can drive and is really crafty at creating a shot and finishing. If he can't get to the rim, he will hit a short pull up.
 

Saw some clamoring for some new class formation. Issues with private schools are only part of the issue. Like football, enrollment and affluency matters.

Mainly the AAAA state champions come from the top 32 enrollment every year for the last 15 years except for Apple Valley (Jones brothers) and Park Center. However, there are 62-64 teams in class 4A. It was only a matter of time that basketball would look at football and say, why does the top class have 32 teams but basketball has 64.

AAA is dominated by metro private schools with only 4 public schools winning the championship in the last 20 years.

Maybe metro private schools should have to play up a level in play to compete in the MSHSL. If teams don't want to play up at the 1A or 2A level, there should be a separate tournament for 1A/2A private and charter schools.

5A: Top 32 Enrollments/Qualifying Private Schools
4A: Next 64 Enrollments/Qualifying Private Schools
3A: Next 96 Enrollments/Qualifying Private Schools
2A: Remaining Enrollments (No private or Charter schools allowed)
1A: Charter and Remaining Private Schools

Could even use computers to put teams in top 32.

Saw there is an online petition created by a mom in Waseca after losing to Breck, with over 10,000 signatures, to not allow private schools in the same MSHSL tournaments. I don't agree with that, I think they just need to play class up.
 

We discussed this in football too, but I really think the issue with private schools is largely overstated in the era of open enrollment (OE).

Pre-OE, recruiting by private schools was most certainly an issue. Hill-Murray in hockey, Cretin in Football and Baseball come to mind most prominently.

But now in the OE era, virtually any school can recruit and get around what weak restrictions there are on playing eligibility. If Karen in Waseca wants to air her sour grapes, so be it, but that's not going anywhere.
 

jovs said:
Could be, 4 out of the 5 South kids transfered a couple of years ago. I Don't think any of them sat a year but I have no idea if they transfered again.
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This is the most blatant example. Didn't a couple go to Park Center and Osseo?
 

MaxyJR1 said:
Saw some clamoring for some new class formation. Issues with private schools are only part of the issue. Like football, enrollment and affluency matters.

Mainly the AAAA state champions come from the top 32 enrollment every year for the last 15 years except for Apple Valley (Jones brothers) and Park Center. However, there are 62-64 teams in class 4A. It was only a matter of time that basketball would look at football and say, why does the top class have 32 teams but basketball has 64.

AAA is dominated by metro private schools with only 4 public schools winning the championship in the last 20 years.

Maybe metro private schools should have to play up a level in play to compete in the MSHSL. If teams don't want to play up at the 1A or 2A level, there should be a separate tournament for 1A/2A private and charter schools.

5A: Top 32 Enrollments/Qualifying Private Schools
4A: Next 64 Enrollments/Qualifying Private Schools
3A: Next 96 Enrollments/Qualifying Private Schools
2A: Remaining Enrollments (No private or Charter schools allowed)
1A: Charter and Remaining Private Schools

Could even use computers to put teams in top 32.

Saw there is an online petition created by a mom in Waseca after losing to Breck, with over 10,000 signatures, to not allow private schools in the same MSHSL tournaments. I don't agree with that, I think they just need to play class up.
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I saw the same petition. It suggested that a separate class be made for all private schools or that all private schools have to play in the largest class. Both are ridiculous. Look at the schools in section 4A. They really want Community of Peace Academy to play in AAAA? Or have to play CDH or Breck?

The advantage of private schools is pretty limited to a handful of them. Most, especially, smaller private schools are not any better than public schools in terms of athletics.

Your solution is interesting, I like it. All current 3A schools have to move up a class. 1A and 2A can move up, but if they decide not to then they will compete in their own separate tournament.

I had suggested with friends to have some kind of metric that once a private school meets it, they have to move up to the next class. What it would be though, I don't know. That might get kinda messy.
 
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MaxyJR1 said:
Saw some clamoring for some new class formation. Issues with private schools are only part of the issue. Like football, enrollment and affluency matters.

Mainly the AAAA state champions come from the top 32 enrollment every year for the last 15 years except for Apple Valley (Jones brothers) and Park Center. However, there are 62-64 teams in class 4A. It was only a matter of time that basketball would look at football and say, why does the top class have 32 teams but basketball has 64.

AAA is dominated by metro private schools with only 4 public schools winning the championship in the last 20 years.

Maybe metro private schools should have to play up a level in play to compete in the MSHSL. If teams don't want to play up at the 1A or 2A level, there should be a separate tournament for 1A/2A private and charter schools.

5A: Top 32 Enrollments/Qualifying Private Schools
4A: Next 64 Enrollments/Qualifying Private Schools
3A: Next 96 Enrollments/Qualifying Private Schools
2A: Remaining Enrollments (No private or Charter schools allowed)
1A: Charter and Remaining Private Schools

Could even use computers to put teams in top 32.

Saw there is an online petition created by a mom in Waseca after losing to Breck, with over 10,000 signatures, to not allow private schools in the same MSHSL tournaments. I don't agree with that, I think they just need to play class up.
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Doesn't surprise me out of Waseca. When Chet Holgmren dominated Waseca, all the parents thought Andrew Morgan was still a better player.

Also, it appears the last two years that the state championship brackets has private schools matching up against private schools, then the championship comes down to a public school vs private school, at least for AA and AAA.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
Saw some clamoring for some new class formation. Issues with private schools are only part of the issue. Like football, enrollment and affluency matters.

Mainly the AAAA state champions come from the top 32 enrollment every year for the last 15 years except for Apple Valley (Jones brothers) and Park Center. However, there are 62-64 teams in class 4A. It was only a matter of time that basketball would look at football and say, why does the top class have 32 teams but basketball has 64.

AAA is dominated by metro private schools with only 4 public schools winning the championship in the last 20 years.

Maybe metro private schools should have to play up a level in play to compete in the MSHSL. If teams don't want to play up at the 1A or 2A level, there should be a separate tournament for 1A/2A private and charter schools.

5A: Top 32 Enrollments/Qualifying Private Schools
4A: Next 64 Enrollments/Qualifying Private Schools
3A: Next 96 Enrollments/Qualifying Private Schools
2A: Remaining Enrollments (No private or Charter schools allowed)
1A: Charter and Remaining Private Schools

Could even use computers to put teams in top 32.

Saw there is an online petition created by a mom in Waseca after losing to Breck, with over 10,000 signatures, to not allow private schools in the same MSHSL tournaments. I don't agree with that, I think they just need to play class up.
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Maybe there should be a restriction on public schools that have open enrollment as well. That’s functionally what they are doing in demanding private schools be removed.

I don’t know what the motivation is or isn’t in choosing to play up, but I think it’s at least partially because of needing to do it in all sports not just the one they dominate in.

If your proposal to shrink 4A is accepted, is there a need to make 3A private schools play up since theoretically the class will be more competitive with larger schools in it?
 

Spottedmuskie said:
Doesn't surprise me out of Waseca. When Chet Holgmren dominated Waseca, all the parents thought Andrew Morgan was still a better player.

Also, it appears the last two years that the state championship brackets has private schools matching up against private schools, then the championship comes down to a public school vs private school, at least for AA and AAA.
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All the parents were wrong. As usual. (I hope that was the intended meaning of your comment).
 

Holy Man said:
Maybe there should be a restriction on public schools that have open enrollment as well. That’s functionally what they are doing in demanding private schools be removed.

I don’t know what the motivation is or isn’t in choosing to play up, but I think it’s at least partially because of needing to do it in all sports not just the one they dominate in.
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Open enrollment is state law. Districts have to allow kids to open enroll from other districts.
The exception is if the school/district is at capacity.

What districts do not have to allow is intra-district OE. For example, if a kid wants to transfer from Osseo to Maple Grove, the district can and will block that.

And schools don't have to play up in other sports. Every sport has a different classification. Roseau plays up in hockey but obviously doesn't play at the top level for other sports.
 

If the MSHSL ever tried to change the rules for private schools only, there would be a parade of lawyers lining up ready to take that case to court.

It's all in or all out. if private schools are members of the MSHSL, then the same rules have to apply to them as to other schools.

the alternative is to go back to the old days, when private schools were not members of the MSHSL. I remember attending the State Private School Basketball tournament when it was held at Augsburg College in the mid-70's. (Lourdes won, as I recall).

and if the MSHSL tried to boot out the private schools, I suspect there would be lawyers lined up for that effort as well.
 


short ornery norwegian said:
the alternative is to go back to the old days, when private schools were not members of the MSHSL.
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Sounds good to me!

Other states follow this model, and it's superior.

short ornery norwegian said:
and if the MSHSL tried to boot out the private schools, I suspect there would be lawyers lined up for that effort as well.
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On what basis?

The MSHSL surely has bylaws allowing them to cease membership for any reason they choose. It's not a government body. It's just a private organization.
 

MplsGopher said:
On what basis?

The MSHSL surely has bylaws allowing them to cease membership for any reason they choose. It's not a government body. It's just a private organization.
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I didn't say they would win. I said someone would challenge it in court - likely on the basis of discrimination, claiming that private schools were being discriminated against as a class. the MSHSL may be a private organization, but it's an organization with a budget, and that budget is supported by fees paid by public and private High Schools.

the MSHSL has allowed collections of home-schooled students to form teams and compete in MSHSL-sanctioned sports. If they allow that, and they tried to kick out private schools, you don't think that someone would challenge it in court?

I don't think the MSHSL has the stomach or the budget for that kind of legal fight.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
I didn't say they would win. I said someone would challenge it in court - likely on the basis of discrimination, claiming that private schools were being discriminated against as a class. the MSHSL may be a private organization, but it's an organization with a budget, and that budget is supported by fees paid by public and private High Schools.

the MSHSL has allowed collections of home-schooled students to form teams and compete in MSHSL-sanctioned sports. If they allow that, and they tried to kick out private schools, you don't think that someone would challenge it in court?

I don't think the MSHSL has the stomach or the budget for that kind of legal fight.
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They have to just have guidelines for what class they have to participate in IMO.
 

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