What grade do you give Ben Johnson for his first year?

What grade do you give Ben Johnson for his first year?

  • A

    Votes: 14 5.9%

  • B

    Votes: 75 31.8%

  • C

    Votes: 92 39.0%

  • D

    Votes: 41 17.4%

  • F

    Votes: 14 5.9%
  • Total voters
    236
Donate To GopherHole
Johnnyboy18 said:
Is anyone arguing the roster construction was good? People are posting explanations about why it wasn't good.
Click to expand...

I thought the intent of the OP was to evaluate the first year of Ben Johnson. 77 posters and counting gave an A or B grade. Does roster construction not count in the evaluation of a coach? One of the biggest complaints about Pitino year over year was his roster construction.

At the end of the day, it's about winning and specifically winning in conference and the postseason. I'm not sure how a record of 4-17 can solicit an A or B grading based on performance and it's bizarre to me to compare that record against the expectations of a roster he constructed/developed and pat him on the back as a result. In the last game of the year, we played exactly 1 player that will see any minutes in a Gopher uniform next year. I acknowledge the injuries of Fox and Ihnen played a role, but overall it wasn't an inspirational first year for me. Again....I'm just talking about year one.
 

golfing18now said:
The cupboard wasn't bare at the end of last year. The cupboard was bare after the entire team decided to leave.

Why did so many players remain with the new coach at Indiana? How about Penn State? How about Richard Pitino's first year? Does Johnson have any culpability for having to start completely over? If he had 7 players on the team from last year as we saw in some of these other examples, would 4 big ten wins be considered such an overachievement as many have claimed? Did Pitino deserve any credit for retaining Tubby's players?
Click to expand...
Are you saying the overall state of Gopher basketball was the same after Tubby's tenure as it was when Pitino got fired?
 

golfing18now said:
I believe when I checked last week, Penn State returned seven players including Harrar, Lundy, Dread, and Sessoms. We returned Ihnen and as a last resort Curry. Penn State is a conference door mat with a first year coach. Just like us. It’s exactly the point I was trying to make. Indiana is a middle of the conference team but also with a first year coach.

I like much of what I saw this year from Johnson. But my main criticism would be his roster construction. Portal or not, he didn’t do a very good job selling the program to the returning players and unfortunately he also has very little returning as a result of the choices he made in the portal. Just my year one observation.
Click to expand...
He might have had a realistic chance of retaining Johnson, Williams, Gach, Freeman, and Mitchell. We don't know what any of them was thinking and if they left because of new coach uncertainties or just wanted out of the Gopher program.

Johnson was a huge loss. We upgraded Williams with Stephens. Gach is a sketchy, undependable player and I doubt Ben wanted him. As it turned out Freeman and Mitchell might have been some help although when they left Ben had Ihnen and was going for Fox.

Carr, Mashburn, and Robbins were gone no matter who the new coach might have been. In any event, Ben could not have wanted Carr because you can't build a new team culture with him.
 

Dakota2 said:
Are you saying the overall state of Gopher basketball was the same after Tubby's tenure as it was when Pitino got fired?
Click to expand...

That's a fair question.

Pitino had a few high end players that returned but also had very little to work with in the last two Smith recruiting classes. Players admittedly did not have the same freedom of movement, but Pitino largely retained the same roster and with a few additions had what most of us deemed a very successful year one.

The last year of Pitino's tenure vastly underachieved in my view and contributed to his dismissal. It spent many weeks in the top 15-25 and beat a few really good teams at home until fading badly in February/March. Had Pitino stayed and the roster had largely remained intact with a couple additional April transfers (ironically April recruiting was a strength of Pitino), the talent level in theory would have been far better than 4-17. Johnson took over that team and in a month replaced Pitino's roster with one that many posters believe was a huge overachiever at 4-17.

To answer your question.....maybe Smith left a better situation than Pitino but I don't think it was dramatically better.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
I said the main contributors outside of TJD this season were similar to past Gopher recruits. Their 2nd-5th leading scorers were Race who was a low end 4* from MN who was in the portal when BJ was already hired here. Kopp was a mid 4* who transferred in from Northwestern, and the other two were 3* transfers.

The high end recruits you are speaking of did not contribute much to this Indiana team this season, and may never pan out.

The only thing I'm mad about is being a perennial bottom dweller in the B1G. I hope Ben proves me wrong and wins big here as I'll always be a fan.

I thought he was a bad hire from day one because of what we just endured under Pitino, yet we hired an even lesser experienced version of him. Ben's recruiting last spring couldn't have gone much worse, and that's how we ended up in last place this season.

The way things have changed with the transfer portal offers new coaches the opportunity to win right away, plus Minnesota has a ton of basketball talent. There are several first year coaches in the NCAA tournament this season. The fact that posters are giving him a pass and high grades for this season shows how dead this fanbase has become.
Click to expand...
This is the kind of post that can get you banned. No bueno to criticize the new coach
 


Dakota2 said:
He might have had a realistic chance of retaining Johnson, Williams, Gach, Freeman, and Mitchell. We don't know what any of them was thinking and if they left because of new coach uncertainties or just wanted out of the Gopher program.

Johnson was a huge loss. We upgraded Williams with Stephens. Gach is a sketchy, undependable player and I doubt Ben wanted him. As it turned out Freeman and Mitchell might have been some help although when they left Ben had Ihnen and was going for Fox.

Carr, Mashburn, and Robbins were gone no matter who the new coach might have been. In any event, Ben could not have wanted Carr because you can't build a new team culture with him.
Click to expand...

None of the guys you mentioned are program changers. But they are/were better than filling roster spots with 5th year transfers and freshman that you don't trust to even see the floor after a year in your program. I just don't see how the roster as it was constructed in year one will have a carryover effect to year two (we keep hearing about this vague culture concept) if everybody is leaving again. Thus my lower grade than others.
 


golfing18now said:
That's a fair question.

Pitino had a few high end players that returned but also had very little to work with in the last two Smith recruiting classes. Players admittedly did not have the same freedom of movement, but Pitino largely retained the same roster and with a few additions had what most of us deemed a very successful year one.

The last year of Pitino's tenure vastly underachieved in my view and contributed to his dismissal. It spent many weeks in the top 15-25 and beat a few really good teams at home until fading badly in February/March. Had Pitino stayed and the roster had largely remained intact with a couple additional April transfers (ironically April recruiting was a strength of Pitino), the talent level in theory would have been far better than 4-17. Johnson took over that team and in a month replaced Pitino's roster with one that many posters believe was a huge overachiever at 4-17.

To answer your question.....maybe Smith left a better situation than Pitino but I don't think it was dramatically better.
Click to expand...
Just to clarify, I wasn't really equating the situation directly to either coach. I said the overall state of Gopher basketball, which provides the perception in which potential players -- recruits, transfers, or current roster players -- regard Minnesota. I would say that is a declining line which was much lower last year than when Richard arrived.
 

golfing18now said:
None of the guys you mentioned are program changers. But they are/were better than filling roster spots with 5th year transfers and freshman that you don't trust to even see the floor after a year in your program. I just don't see how the roster as it was constructed in year one will have a carryover effect to year two (we keep hearing about this vague culture concept) if everybody is leaving again. Thus my lower grade than others.
Click to expand...
You don't think Willis, Battle, Fox, Stephens, Loewe, and Sutherlin were better than Gach, Williams, Mitchell, and Freeman?
 



Dakota2 said:
Just to clarify, I wasn't really equating the situation directly to either coach. I said the overall state of Gopher basketball, which provides the perception in which potential players -- recruits, transfers, or current roster players -- regard Minnesota. I would say that is a declining line which was much lower last year than when Richard arrived.
Click to expand...

That's probably true. Although when Tubby was fired, much of the national response was "who do you think you are firing a coach like Smith?" It wasn't a glowing endorsement of the state of our program at the time. But you are right....tacking on another eight years of mediocrity at best doesn't add to the program's appeal/perception.
 


Dakota2 said:
You don't think Willis, Battle, Fox, Stephens, Loewe, and Sutherlin were better than Gach, Williams, Mitchell, and Freeman?
Click to expand...
Impossible to know for sure. Willis and Battle were far better than expected. The other three starters were blessed with unlimited minutes.

But I'm really trying to make an argument for depth and continuity. If we are replacing 9 or 10 scholarships every year, we'll be looking for a new coach soon in my opinion. Losing with fifth year transfers doesn't help you with recruiting in the short term (another losing year on the resume) or help you will player development/culture in the long run.
 

Dakota2 said:
He didn't flush the whole team. Carr, Robbins, Gabe, and Mashburn were gone no matter who came in to coach.
Click to expand...

Gabe was not gone no matter who came in and he considered staying. The other 3 were gone.

The Gophers had 4 available scholarships to add additional players. Ben could have kept all of his recruits, and still kept Gabe, Gach, Brandon Johnson, and whoever out of Williams, Freeman, or Mitchell.

It wasn't an either/or as you're making it out to be. Keeping 4 of those players would have significantly improved our depth and chances of winning more games this season. That's 100% on Ben Johnson.
 



golfing18now said:
Impossible to know for sure. Willis and Battle were far better than expected. The other three starters were blessed with unlimited minutes.

But I'm really trying to make an argument for depth and continuity. If we are replacing 9 or 10 scholarships every year, we'll be looking for a new coach soon in my opinion. Losing with fifth year transfers doesn't help you with recruiting in the short term (another losing year on the resume) or help you will player development/culture in the long run.
Click to expand...
I fully understand the desire for depth and continuity, something every program aspires to have. But this season was a one-time outlier and in no way causes concern for going forward.

We have already established the process of gaining depth and continuity. Battle, Fox, and Ihnen have two more years. Thompson has three. We have a freshman class coming in of four guys who will be here several years. So that is at least eight players who will have multiple years here and nine if Thiam stays. At least one of the new portal guys might have more than one year. Next year at this time we will also be looking at another recruiting class of three or four incoming freshmen.

Depth and continuity is being built in a most reasonable fashion.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Gabe was not gone no matter who came in and he considered staying. The other 3 were gone.

The Gophers had 4 available scholarships to add additional players. Ben could have kept all of his recruits, and still kept Gabe, Gach, Brandon Johnson, and whoever out of Williams, Freeman, or Mitchell.

It wasn't an either/or as you're making it out to be. Keeping 4 of those players would have significantly improved our depth and chances of winning more games this season. That's 100% on Ben Johnson.
Click to expand...
Also.... Robbins might have been saved had Ben chosen to keep his uncle on for the year. I'm not saying he should have done that, but a healthy Robbins would have done worlds for the team. All what ifs because Robbins got injured anyway. Your point stands. I hated to see us throw a year away totally as we did by bringing in a number of guys that simply cannot play at this level.

Fox's injury was known within days of his April 15 signing. He should have been replaced with someone that is higher level than Charlie Daniels.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Gabe was not gone no matter who came in and he considered staying. The other 3 were gone.

The Gophers had 4 available scholarships to add additional players. Ben could have kept all of his recruits, and still kept Gabe, Gach, Brandon Johnson, and whoever out of Williams, Freeman, or Mitchell.

It wasn't an either/or as you're making it out to be. Keeping 4 of those players would have significantly improved our depth and chances of winning more games this season. That's 100% on Ben Johnson.
Click to expand...
Gabe was gone. He was a mental wreck at Minnesota over his three point shooting and had made up his mind to move. Ben and Gabe had a very good relationship and no other coach had a better chance than Ben to keep Gabe. It wasn't happening.

If he didn't want Brandon Johnson, that was a bad call. Johnson found a better place to play his last year than Minnesota and took it. Freeman and Mitchell, we don't know who said what or why they didn't return. Either or both would have helped with front court depth, but not game changers.
 

I guess we could argue the other side- Ben begged the team to stay but lacked the ability to get buy in. Maybe this scenario is worse.
 

Dakota2 said:
I fully understand the desire for depth and continuity, something every program aspires to have. But this season was a one-time outlier and in no way causes concern for going forward.

We have already established the process of gaining depth and continuity. Battle, Fox, and Ihnen have two more years. Thompson has three. We have a freshman class coming in of four guys who will be here several years. So that is at least eight players who will have multiple years here and nine if Thiam stays. At least one of the new portal guys might have more than one year. Next year at this time we will also be looking at another recruiting class of three or four incoming freshmen.

Depth and continuity is being built in a most reasonable fashion.
Click to expand...

It is definitely possible that it could play out that way. I've tried to qualify my statements in this thread as a year one evaluation only. I haven't seen enough yet to consider him a rising star or abject failure at this point. We don't have enough data yet to make that call.

Personally, I hope the eight players you mentioned plus a starting point guard play the majority of the minutes next year. I'm ok if we add two or three fifth year guys, but hopefully those are depth pieces only. I'm hoping next year looks like Pitino's third year where you might lose a bunch of games but you can see growth.
 


How can so many people on here talk about Mitchell as a player that could've added anything??? He apparently didn't even play college basketball this season........
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
The way things have changed with the transfer portal offers new coaches the opportunity to win right away, plus Minnesota has a ton of basketball talent. There are several first year coaches in the NCAA tournament this season. The fact that posters are giving him a pass and high grades for this season shows how dead this fanbase has become.
Click to expand...
How were those coaches able to recruit??

From what I understand, if you can't go into a recruits living room and show them how your system works on tape, they won't sign with you.
 



Gophers_4life said:
Valid point.

So ... nothing matters? Every new year and coaching choice is just a flip of the coin and we hope for the best?
Click to expand...
Kind of....yeah.

Every situation is different, it's why coaches should get a few seasons before people start drawing a lot of conclusions about them and the kind of program they are going to have.
 

So who were the first year head coaches that are in the tourny? What are their situations?

Why are those situations not relevant to analyzing Ben's first season here?
 

Gophers_4life said:
So who were the first year head coaches that are in the tourny? What are their situations?

Why are those situations not relevant to analyzing Ben's first season here?
Click to expand...
Oh they're really relevant. If they made the tournament they are really big success stories. Like can you believe Indiana of all places made the tournament? I'm suprised Woodson didn't win coach of the year for leading Indiana to a 12 seed. The first year coaches that didn't make the tournament are all failures let's be real here.
 

Gophers_4life said:
So who were the first year head coaches that are in the tourny? What are their situations?

Why are those situations not relevant to analyzing Ben's first season here?
Click to expand...
Iowa State is the one that gets brought up a lot and is the one first year coach I am aware of that made the tournament. I'm sure there are others.

Like us, ISU brought in a bunch of transfers. They loaded up on non-conf wins and went under .500 in conference. They also had a top 40 recruit who was committed prior to the coaching change and didn't have season ending injuries to contend with. They are likely headed for an early exit in the tournament but you never know.

It doesn't hurt to look at other programs as a comparison but after 1 year there just isn't enough data to draw any real conclusions as to how much success a coach is going to have at their respective school. You need a few years to really know if a coach is going to succeed or fail.
 

Wait though, first year at that school is different than first year head coach ever.

Sure, in some ways they're the same, especially if coming up from mid-major or for sure from low-major (not sure if that level of jump happens much).

MNVCGUY said:
Like us, ISU brought in a bunch of transfers. They loaded up on non-conf wins and went under .500 in conference. They also had a top 40 recruit who was committed prior to the coaching change and didn't have season ending injuries to contend with. They are likely headed for an early exit in the tournament but you never know.
Click to expand...
Fair assessment, but on the bolded: some of their non-conf wins were pretty significant.
 

Look, I don't think anyone is claiming that Johnson's first year was some great success.

We can keep arguing about this all day, but unless someone invents a time machine, nothing is going to change.

the first year is in the books, and Johnson will be judged on that year, but also on what he does going forward.

If Johnson lands some good recruits and has the team in the NCAA tournament in a few years, only the most crazed fans will still be arguing about his first season.

And if Johnson doesn't produce better results going forward, he will not be the head coach at MN.
and then we can argue about the next coach.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Look, I don't think anyone is claiming that Johnson's first year was some great success.

We can keep arguing about this all day, but unless someone invents a time machine, nothing is going to change.

the first year is in the books, and Johnson will be judged on that year, but also on what he does going forward.

If Johnson lands some good recruits and has the team in the NCAA tournament in a few years, only the most crazed fans will still be arguing about his first season.

And if Johnson doesn't produce better results going forward, he will not be the head coach at MN.
and then we can argue about the next coach.
Click to expand...
I would say giving an 'A' is claiming it was a great success, so there are some that are claiming great success.
 

You must log in or register to reply here.



Top Bottom