STrib: Imagine a Gophers hoops team with mostly Minnesota talent; Ben Johnson's close to making it happen

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cjbfbp said:
He still won 20 or more games in 5 of his 6 years and never had a losing season.

In 8 years, his successor had 3 seasons of 20 or more wins and 4 outright losing seasons.

Of his six seasons, four truly were middle of the pack (as the other poster said) in the conference.

Tubby may not have been the coach of anyone's dreams but he was significantly more successful than his predecessor and successor.
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My trouble with Tubby was the many seasons the Gophers would be ranked going into the B1G season and just fall apart for various reasons. They would then have a losing conference record and be a bubble team after looking great for 1/3 of a season
 

golfing18now said:
I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest many people in this State would rather lose with Minnesota kids than win without them. "Minnesota Connections" is all many people talk about here. If only we could lock down the border. If only we could bring back all the Minnesota kids that spurned us and went elsewhere. When a Minnesota kid picks a different school, it's considered a black eye on the current coach. We need to hire coaches with "Minnesota Connections", despite better candidates being out there (see Whalen/Johnson). The provincialism around this team is really quite nauseating. The media. The administration. On and on.
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Maybe there are people like this but for the most part I think you are likely missing the point. The idea being getting Minnesota kids is that if you can't get Minnesota kids you are likely to have an even harder time getting non Minnesota kids of same or better ability since with Minnesota kids you have built in the draw of being close to home and having an easier time visiting or being visited at games by friends and family. The Minnesota piece is more just an indicator of how good you are at recruiting. What is the right metric for number of Minnesota players to be able to keep? I don't know, but I (and clearly many others) certainly don't think it is what it has been the last 8 years.

I personally don't care if we had no Minnesotan's on the team if we were near the top of the B1G, but we aren't because we don't have players that are performing at a high level. When you see so many Minnesota players go to other schools and have more success than Minnesota that becomes a concern when you are bad and get so few of the Minnesota kids. Having a bunch of Minnesota guys making up the team would be fun because there is a certain amount of pride with people knowing these players and watching them play as well as knowing people that know people that know them. This is all kind of fun but not particularly fun if the team is bad. Lots of people would enjoy having a team with a bunch of players from more random origins i.e. Alaska, UK, Congo, Norway, Argentina or a particular Indian reservation within Minnesota. This all brings curiosity, interest and there would undoubtedly be many stories about such groups of players. But Minnesota players have the extra dimension of people being familiar with them and where they are from, see Suni Lee, Lindsey Vonn and all the other Minnesota athletes that go to the Olympics or other big sporting events.
 

Lincoln gopher said:
My trouble with Tubby was the many seasons the Gophers would be ranked going into the B1G season and just fall apart for various reasons. They would then have a losing conference record and be a bubble team after looking great for 1/3 of a season
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That’s where the criterion of wanting them to better at the end of the season than the beginning began. His teams frequently collapsed and looked discouraged at the end of the season.
 

Ragnor said:
Maybe there are people like this but for the most part I think you are likely missing the point. The idea being getting Minnesota kids is that if you can't get Minnesota kids you are likely to have an even harder time getting non Minnesota kids of same or better ability since with Minnesota kids you have built in the draw of being close to home and having an easier time visiting or being visited at games by friends and family. The Minnesota piece is more just an indicator of how good you are at recruiting. What is the right metric for number of Minnesota players to be able to keep? I don't know, but I (and clearly many others) certainly don't think it is what it has been the last 8 years.

I personally don't care if we had no Minnesotan's on the team if we were near the top of the B1G, but we aren't because we don't have players that are performing at a high level. When you see so many Minnesota players go to other schools and have more success than Minnesota that becomes a concern when you are bad and get so few of the Minnesota kids. Having a bunch of Minnesota guys making up the team would be fun because there is a certain amount of pride with people knowing these players and watching them play as well as knowing people that know people that know them. This is all kind of fun but not particularly fun if the team is bad. Lots of people would enjoy having a team with a bunch of players from more random origins i.e. Alaska, UK, Congo, Norway, Argentina or a particular Indian reservation within Minnesota. This all brings curiosity, interest and there would undoubtedly be many stories about such groups of players. But Minnesota players have the extra dimension of people being familiar with them and where they are from, see Suni Lee, Lindsey Vonn and all the other Minnesota athletes that go to the Olympics or other big sporting events.
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I don’t think this is true. Clem teams were majority non MN players. Coaches jobs are to identify talent no matter where they are from and sell them on why MN would be the right fit.
 

GopherPlaya said:
I don’t think this is true. Clem teams were majority non MN players. Coaches jobs are to identify talent no matter where they are from and sell them on why MN would be the right fit.
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I agree, what part of what I wrote doesn't agree?
 


cjbfbp said:
He still won 20 or more games in 5 of his 6 years and never had a losing season.

In 8 years, his successor had 3 seasons of 20 or more wins and 4 outright losing seasons.

Of his six seasons, four truly were middle of the pack (as the other poster said) in the conference.

Tubby may not have been the coach of anyone's dreams but he was significantly more successful than his predecessor and successor.
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That's not what I am saying. Record? Yes it was better than Monson by a shade and certainly better than Pitino as Tubby never fully bottomed out. However the perception he created here was that a Hall of Fame coach went to Minnesota and not once in 6 years did he exceed .500 in Big Ten play. That's terrible for the program.
 


Johnnyboy18 said:
Ah yes Minnesotans totally would hate winning without any Minnesota kids. This topic comes up because we suck and the programs succeed with gettable players from the state.
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What is your definition of "gettable"?

There are certain Minnesota kids that want to be Gophers and would likely come to Minnesota regardless of coach. Michael Hurt and Treyton Thompson by all accounts had lifetime aspirations to play here. But what others are gettable?

Top 40ish players aren't coming to Minnesota unless they fall under the first bucket above. Suggs/Holmgren/Tyus/Matt Hurt level players almost always go to blue bloods. That isn't a Minnesota phenomenon. That's everywhere.

Players ranked 40-100 or so still have many options. I will grant you that we might be in the discussion more if a player is from Minnesota. We likely don't get Coffey or Oturu if they reside elsewhere. But players of this caliber aren't originating from Minnesota every year. Garcia/Holloman/Reuvers? Maybe a couple others?

Then players ranked 100 -300 is where most of the "gettable" Minnesota talent has resided. Yes, these players are "gettable" but they better be gettable from other States too (in this range) if you are a Big Ten program or you have the wrong coach. We tend to add a star for any player that resides in Minnesota and wring our hands over the players that outperform their rankings (McKinley Wright, David Roddy) but forget the ones that underperform (Alex Illikainen, Sacar Anim) that went elsewhere.
 

bga1 said:
That's not what I am saying. Record? Yes it was better than Monson by a shade and certainly better than Pitino as Tubby never fully bottomed out. However the perception he created here was that a Hall of Fame coach went to Minnesota and not once in 6 years did he exceed .500 in Big Ten play. That's terrible for the program.
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OK, you have a point there. Given his stature (and the compensation that went with it), he underperformed and that could give other potential coaches pause when considering whether to come here. But, if Ben Johnson is still around in 6 years and performs about as well as Tubby did in that time span, I sure don't think we should fire a coach with that 6 year record this time.
 



golfing18now said:
Then players ranked 100 -300 is where most of the "gettable" Minnesota talent has resided. Yes, these players are "gettable" but they better be gettable from other States too (in this range) if you are a Big Ten program or you have the wrong coach. We tend to add a star for any player that resides in Minnesota and wring our hands over the players that outperform their rankings (McKinley Wright, David Roddy) but forget the ones that underperform (Alex Illikainen, Sacar Anim) that went elsewhere.
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Well said! I do think Pitino erred by relying too much on player ratings instead of personally or having an assistant pay more attention to actually watching a larger group of local players. Michael Hurt simply wasn't a P6 player despite his 3 star ranking. Isiaih Washington wasn't a top 60 player (although I think he did some things pretty well). Tre' Williams isn't a four star player either (barely a 3 star at best!). And, as you mentioned. Alex Illikainen certainly wasn't a four star player. Unheralded and unrecruited Jamison Battle, on the other hand, had a double figure scoring average and was All Rookie in a good conference (A10) as a freshman. You don't do that as a college freshman if you aren't already a very good player as a high school senior.

This is how Auburn picked up Charles Barkley. Head coach Sonny Smith sent an assistant to a state playoff game to watch a very highly rated player on one of the teams. The assistant called him after the game and said he watched the highly rated player but wanted to talk about this "fat kid who can move like the wind!" That was his only offer coming out of high school.
 
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Gopher_In_NYC said:
Great point and I remember him as well.

I remember being enamored of lefty Dave Dalke from Chaska (?) as a middle schooler during the state tournament and then not so much when he struggled mightily in the B10, as he simply didn’t have the foot speed to play at that level.
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Mike Hurt says hold my beer
 


golfing18now said:
What is your definition of "gettable"?

There are certain Minnesota kids that want to be Gophers and would likely come to Minnesota regardless of coach. Michael Hurt and Treyton Thompson by all accounts had lifetime aspirations to play here. But what others are gettable?

Top 40ish players aren't coming to Minnesota unless they fall under the first bucket above. Suggs/Holmgren/Tyus/Matt Hurt level players almost always go to blue bloods. That isn't a Minnesota phenomenon. That's everywhere.

Players ranked 40-100 or so still have many options. I will grant you that we might be in the discussion more if a player is from Minnesota. We likely don't get Coffey or Oturu if they reside elsewhere. But players of this caliber aren't originating from Minnesota every year. Garcia/Holloman/Reuvers? Maybe a couple others?

Then players ranked 100 -300 is where most of the "gettable" Minnesota talent has resided. Yes, these players are "gettable" but they better be gettable from other States too (in this range) if you are a Big Ten program or you have the wrong coach. We tend to add a star for any player that resides in Minnesota and wring our hands over the players that outperform their rankings (McKinley Wright, David Roddy) but forget the ones that underperform (Alex Illikainen, Sacar Anim) that went elsewhere.
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Sacar was a multi year starter for a Big East program as a 3 star. What expectations did you have of him?

Those players literally have existed every year the last 9 years or so which coincide with the program being bad. Which is why they are brought up.
 



Ragnor said:
The idea being getting Minnesota kids is that if you can't get Minnesota kids you are likely to have an even harder time getting non Minnesota kids of same or better ability since with Minnesota kids you have built in the draw of being close to home and having an easier time visiting or being visited at games by friends and family. The Minnesota piece is more just an indicator of how good you are at recruiting.
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Ding, ding, ding.... I think you hit the nail on the head. MN preps should be the easiest to convince. If we don't get many 4 or 5 star MN players, we likely aren't getting ANY from out of state. This is why instate recruiting is so important.

If a top Minnesotan prep picks the hometown team, there is a chance some of their nationally-ranked best buddies actually pay attention the next time Coach Johnson picks up the phone and calls them.

Paige Bueckers and best bud, Azzi Fudd, would have looked nice in Maroon and Gold!
 

GopherPlaya said:
I don’t think this is true. Clem teams were majority non MN players. Coaches jobs are to identify talent no matter where they are from and sell them on why MN would be the right fit.
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There were few high-profile Minnesotans that Clem didn't get. He went outside because he HAD to as the talent wasn't there at the time to fill out a competitive roster.

Clem's success and the arrival of the Timberwolves are the two reasons that Minnesota youth suddenly became much stronger in hoops.
 

cjbfbp said:
This is how Auburn picked up Charles Barkley. Head coach Sonny Smith sent an assistant to a state playoff game to watch a very highly rated player on one of the teams. The assistant called him after the game and said he watched the highly rated player but wanted to talk about this "fat kid who can move like the wind!" That was his only offer coming out of high school.
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Great anecdote. I had forgotten that one. Jaden Henley's coach applauded Coach Johnson's vision in evaluating the player outside of the ratings. Let's see if Henley is a diamond in the coal mine.
 

ecoperson said:
Ding, ding, ding.... I think you hit the nail on the head. MN preps should be the easiest to convince. If we don't get many 4 or 5 star MN players, we likely aren't getting ANY from out of state. This is why instate recruiting is so important.

If a top Minnesotan prep picks the hometown team, there is a chance some of their nationally-ranked best buddies actually pay attention the next time Coach Johnson picks up the phone and calls them.

Paige Bueckers and best bud, Azzi Fudd, would have looked nice in Maroon and Gold!
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Easier to convince? Probably. But I just don't think reality is the same as perception here. With AAU basketball and travel, these kids have played in many places. They likely don't have the same allegiance or loyalty to Minnesota as fans would like to believe. The last time Minnesota was relevant at a national level was prior to the birth of current high schoolers.

If given the opportunity of a full ride at any of a number of universities, three out of my four kids wouldn't have had Minnesota in their top five. I'm not sure why we would expect local basketball players to feel differently. Asking any coach to lock up a significantly higher percentage of Minnesota kids than the previous few coaches isn't even a fair expectation in my view.
 

golfing18now said:
If given the opportunity of a full ride at any of a number of universities, three out of my four kids wouldn't have had Minnesota in their top five. I'm not sure why we would expect local basketball players to feel differently. Asking any coach to lock up a significantly higher percentage of Minnesota kids than the previous few coaches isn't even a fair expectation in my view.
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Thanks for sharing your interesting personal anecdote. I am hoping that you are referring to your kid's academic top 5. It would be a real downer if a Gopher fan's children wouldn't want to represent their local Power 5 D-1 if offered a schollie.

If the latter, we might as well fold up the program now. How the heck can any coach be successful if locals have such a poor perception of the U?
 

ecoperson said:
Thanks for sharing your interesting personal anecdote. I am hoping that you are referring to your kid's academic top 5. It would be a real downer if a Gopher fan's children wouldn't want to represent their local Power 5 D-1 if offered a schollie.

If the latter, we might as well fold up the program now. How the heck can any coach be successful if locals have such a poor perception of the U?
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My anecdote about my kids isn't really meant to be a slight at the University of Minnesota although it certainly reads that way. It's more of an admission that my kids would have considered any of a number of factors -- campus, weather, academic programs, places to hike, extracurricular opportunities, a good impression in the past, or frankly just wanting to try something new after living in Minnesota their entire lives. It could be anything. Under ordinary circumstances cost is a limiting factor as it has been for my kids, but it wouldn't be for these kids offered full ride scholarships to play basketball.

I understand if this is looked at as a pessimistic view. But I just don't think Minnesota will out-recruit other programs until we see a sustained uptick in results on the court. We don't know yet if the current coaching staff is up to the task. Time will tell. In the meantime, hopefully we try to mimic other programs (yes, even Wisconsin) that aren't drawing top ten classes but develop a system that works (defensive/whatever) and care less about fixating on Minnesota addresses. I don't think other programs are so fixated on local talent and locking down the border. Hopefully "Imagine a Gophers hoops team with mostly Minnesota talent" is replaced with "Imagine a Gophers team that actually hears its name called on Selection Sunday". I don't care about the former. I care about the latter.

Thanks for your responses ecoperson.

​

 

ecoperson said:
Thanks for sharing your interesting personal anecdote. I am hoping that you are referring to your kid's academic top 5. It would be a real downer if a Gopher fan's children wouldn't want to represent their local Power 5 D-1 if offered a schollie.

If the latter, we might as well fold up the program now. How the heck can any coach be successful if locals have such a poor perception of the U?
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By identifying talent that fits a system & start winning. It doesn’t have to be with local kids. This is the social media era. Kids don’t value staying home as much bc they have so much access to be connected to home compared to the past. It’s almost a pipe dream now
 

ecoperson said:
Thanks for sharing your interesting personal anecdote. I am hoping that you are referring to your kid's academic top 5. It would be a real downer if a Gopher fan's children wouldn't want to represent their local Power 5 D-1 if offered a schollie.

If the latter, we might as well fold up the program now. How the heck can any coach be successful if locals have such a poor perception of the U?
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So if a local kid can go to the U but decides to go elsewhere it's due to a poor perception? Am I understanding that correctly?
 

golfing18now said:
My anecdote about my kids isn't really meant to be a slight at the University of Minnesota although it certainly reads that way. It's more of an admission that my kids would have considered any of a number of factors -- campus, weather, academic programs, places to hike, extracurricular opportunities, a good impression in the past, or frankly just wanting to try something new after living in Minnesota their entire lives. It could be anything. Under ordinary circumstances cost is a limiting factor as it has been for my kids, but it wouldn't be for these kids offered full ride scholarships to play basketball.

I understand if this is looked at as a pessimistic view. But I just don't think Minnesota will out-recruit other programs until we see a sustained uptick in results on the court. We don't know yet if the current coaching staff is up to the task. Time will tell. In the meantime, hopefully we try to mimic other programs (yes, even Wisconsin) that aren't drawing top ten classes but develop a system that works (defensive/whatever) and care less about fixating on Minnesota addresses. I don't think other programs are so fixated on local talent and locking down the border. Hopefully "Imagine a Gophers hoops team with mostly Minnesota talent" is replaced with "Imagine a Gophers team that actually hears its name called on Selection Sunday". I don't care about the former. I care about the latter.
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I didn't take your anecdote as a slight but as an important (and unfortunate!) reminder about the uphill battle we face in our goal of reaching basketball relevancy let alone perennial tournament appearances.

Our struggle is compounded by the fact that the outgoing 'grass is greener elsewhere' recruits tend to be more highly regarded than those coming in from out of state.

To be successful, Johnson needs some combination of the following in no particular order of importance:
  1. One superstar local stud to spurn the long list of blue bloods to stay home to help make the program attractive to both local and other top recruits. (We've missed this since maybe Jacobson or Przybilla. Let's hope that Johnson's efforts at building relationships early and often increases the likelihood of a superstar local in the near future.)
  2. A group of high quality top local recruits band together to 'take their talents to the Univesity of Minnesota." (Payne, Carrington, and JOJ is a start.)
  3. Identify and offer national recruits early who have great upside and hit more often than not. (Let's hope Jaden Henley is a good example. Ben and staff need to be first in line at the trough to identify those players who fit their system and offer them early.)
  4. We need to develop a team concept philosophy that leads to wins despite not having the thoroughbreds to win the race individually. (This is the Wisconsin model you cite. This appears to be Johnson's vision of playing to a system... let's see how whether he can be true to this vision without taking shortcuts.)
  5. We need to develop the skills of those who are lesser recruited to serve as capable bench players and eventual starters. (Numerous examples of this over the years but recent squads have mostly lacked these key players. Ben has touted his vision as a developmental program so we will see whether he has the chops to do this. I will watch Thompson closely in the next couple of years.)
  6. The coaches, players, and every other member of the staff needs to somehow outwork the opposition in some way every day by a fraction of a percent.
 


bfriedrichs10 said:
So if a local kid can go to the U but decides to go elsewhere it's due to a poor perception? Am I understanding that correctly?
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Not certain whether you are disagreeing with me or not. My point is that if children of a Gopher fan who posts regularly on the GopherHole doesn't aspire to be at least put the Gophers in their top five, we have a problem!

One would imagine that these children have been to countless games and watched countless more games on TV from an early age. It shows that the U must have a very poor brand. This is obviously for a variety of reasons... none of them good.
 

GopherPlaya said:
By identifying talent that fits a system & start winning. It doesn’t have to be with local kids. This is the social media era. Kids don’t value staying home as much bc they have so much access to be connected to home compared to the past. It’s almost a pipe dream now
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I just typed something similar in a post as you were writing this. We need to make the U of M as desirable to out of state recruits to balance the urge for locals to leave the state to see the world or go to a blue blood program, etc.
 

GoodasGold said:
7. Gophs need to establish some dominance over Bucky to obviate their draw on Minnesota players.
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I have never understood this. I haven't researched the background of the many MN preps who have crossed the border to WI but their parents must not have been Gopher fans. A child of a Gopher fan would not even pick up the phone if WI called unless WI was their only scholarship offer. If they had any other equivalent option, they would take it.

I know that they are close enough to go away for school but still come home but this is a flimsy excuse with airfare so cheap.

There is a noticeable lack of WI talent coming into MN. Much of this stems from the recent fortunes of the two programs but much of it also has to do with WI fans' children never considering joining the enemy.

I think a large part of the exodus to WI problem is traced to their parents not being from MN. The parents are either WI grads that moved to MSP for jobs or the parents have moved to MN from elsewhere and don't have maroon and gold blood. The local perception of the program is so poor that the U isn't an attractive option.
 


ecoperson said:
I have never understood this. I haven't researched the background of the many MN preps who have crossed the border to WI but their parents must not have been Gopher fans. A child of a Gopher fan would not even pick up the phone if WI called unless WI was their only scholarship offer. If they had any other equivalent option, they would take it.

I know that they are close enough to go away for school but still come home but this is a flimsy excuse with airfare so cheap.

There is a noticeable lack of WI talent coming into MN. Much of this stems from the recent fortunes of the two programs but much of it also has to do with WI fans' children never considering joining the enemy.

I think a large part of the exodus to WI problem is traced to their parents not being from MN. The parents are either WI grads that moved to MSP for jobs or the parents have moved to MN from elsewhere and don't have maroon and gold blood. The local perception of the program is so poor that the U isn't an attractive option.
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Other than Cam Taylor, Leuer & Jordan Taylor who are the big misses that chose Wisconsin? I feel like the players we have lost to them aren’t the kids pushing the needle for them. Davison maybe
 

GopherPlaya said:
Other than Cam Taylor, Leuer & Jordan Taylor who are the big misses that chose Wisconsin? I feel like the players we have lost to them aren’t the kids pushing the needle for them. Davison maybe
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Brusewitz. The 3 starters they had this year, Ruevers
 

One WI turning to the dark side doesn't push the needle. A large number of them over the last 10-15 years starts making local kids wonder what they are missing. And, more importantly, serves to further the perception by local recruits that the local team is not desirable.
 

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