Souhan on Tubby: "He's a finger-pointer of the first degree...He must go."

[minngg]

I love how people pretend to know exactly why players transfer. Not one person knows why Cobbs and Devoe transferred. They both told Myron that a big part was that they wanted to be in a more up tempo offense. How can any one count Royce White as a Gopher really. he never played even an exhibition game here. He was trouble way before he got here. You recruit trouble, you get trouble. No excuse for Tubby. Why did Iverson leave just before his senior year?

Does anyone look at Tubby's history with regard to transfers? Don't you think that factors into it. If Tubby had not had a lot of transfers in the past you could cal it bad luck. However, he has and this is par for the course for him. He is out of touch with today's athletes. HIs offense is boring and his substitution patterns alone would disuade me from attending this university if I was a good player.

 

[howieramone]

Savage- You can give Tubby credit for the injured players. To that end I will say we would have been 9-9 or better with Mbakwe because he added the ingredient of toughness and a lay it all on the floor attitude that this team lacked. However, the departed players- no way he gets credit for them. If you have turnover - that's on management. You can either blame it recruiting or the ability to retain the player but either way a player that leaves - that's on the staff. There was a failure to match style of play, assess their personality, their habits and tendencies, assess the toughness of the player, the willingness of the player to accept a role, to tough out the weather, whatever. If a player leaves then you simply should have recruited someone else. Nobody gets it right all of the time, but that's why you have 13 schollys. Players leaving is no excuse- or at least not an acceptable one.

I would guess that's why the powers to be will be extending Tubby shortly. With Nolan we make the dance, with the Beast we make the dance. With our sophomore class to be, we are in postion to make the dance for the next 3 years. I personally would wait til after next year to extend, but I certainly understand that those in positions of responsibility want to pull the trigger now.

 

[scher215]

I love how people pretend to know exactly why players transfer. Not one person knows why Cobbs and Devoe transferred. They both told Myron that a big part was that they wanted to be in a more up tempo offense. How can any one count Royce White as a Gopher really. he never played even an exhibition game here. He was trouble way before he got here. You recruit trouble, you get trouble. No excuse for Tubby. Why did Iverson leave just before his senior year?

Does anyone look at Tubby's history with regard to transfers? Don't you think that factors into it. If Tubby had not had a lot of transfers in the past you could cal it bad luck. However, he has and this is par for the course for him. He is out of touch with today's athletes. HIs offense is boring and his substitution patterns alone would disuade me from attending this university if I was a good player.

Someone previously posted Tubby's transfer numbers. I don't recall if they included MN or not, but his UK transfer rate was about the same as both Cal's and Pitino's.

 

[From the Barn]

Tubby's transfer rate unfortunately matches national trends. The problem is not the quantity, but quality of players leaving.

 

[minngg]

Someone previously posted Tubby's transfer numbers. I don't recall if they included MN or not, but his UK transfer rate was about the same as both Cal's and Pitino's.

No it isn't. Cal's and Pitinos players left for the NBA early. Tubby's transferred to ther places. This is simply not true.

 

[bga1]

A key player or two? He lost a leading Big 12, two Pac 12 leading scorers, All B1G caliber player, Top 150 recruit in Walker. C'mon now!

So what? Monson lost the top Big Ten shot blocker Pryz one year in midseason, lost an all Big Ten player in Hump 3 years early, lost a second team all Big Ten player in Rickert two years early, Bickerstaff got injured midyear, Bauer hurt midyear, Schilling gone, Hargrow gone midyear, Smith departed early one year, Kane, Gaines, Washington, Tucker and Collins all left or couldn't get in school and then he got fired. That's the way it goes when you don't recurit or retain players that win.

 

[minngg]

I would guess that's why the powers to be will be extending Tubby shortly. With Nolan we make the dance, with the Beast we make the dance. With our sophomore class to be, we are in postion to make the dance for the next 3 years. I personally would wait til after next year to extend, but I certainly understand that those in positions of responsibility want to pull the trigger now.

Make the dance. In other words, finish 6th or 7th in conference and maybe get a bubble invite. This is what we expect from our top notch coach? Give me a break. This thing is going down fast and we are going to completely miss out on the best MN recruiting class ever in 2014. It is a disaster.

 

[minngg]

So what? Monson lost the top Big Ten shot blocker Pryz one year in midseason, lost an all Big Ten player in Hump 3 years early, lost a second team all Big Ten player in Rickert two years early, Bickerstaff got injured midyear, Bauer hurt midyear, Schilling gone, Hargrow gone midyear, Smith departed early one year, Kane, Gaines, Washington, Tucker and Collins all left or couldn't get in school and then he got fired. That's the way it goes when you don't recurit or retain players that win.

+1000

 

[scher215]

No it isn't. Cal's and Pitinos players left for the NBA early. Tubby's transferred to ther places. This is simply not true.

It was older, but I'll see if I can find the post/data.

 

[bga1]

I would guess that's why the powers to be will be extending Tubby shortly. With Nolan we make the dance, with the Beast we make the dance. With our sophomore class to be, we are in postion to make the dance for the next 3 years. I personally would wait til after next year to extend, but I certainly understand that those in positions of responsibility want to pull the trigger now.

If they think they can sell that perception (it's just injuries) then that's what they will do. If they take the pulse of season ticket holders (the actual customers) I think they will find that perception is not the prevailing attitude. If this were a regular year where people just re-up their season tickets at the same price- they might get by with the status quo. This just happens to be the year that many people will now be looking at paying a lot more for their tickets. That will be an issue in this economy. Some shuffling is necessary. It might not have to be axingTubby but there has to be something.

 

[bga1]

Tubby's transfer rate unfortunately matches national trends. The problem is not the quantity, but quality of players leaving.

Yep. If your worst players leave- that's pruning. If your best leave that's a big problem.

 

[From the Barn]

Required reading for anyone that wants to discuss transfers

 

[scools12]

Tubby is 5-12 with his B squad. I will precede this by saying that Tubby might be a small factor in transfers. Injuries and transfers shouldn't be an excuse 100% of the time, but with the frequency of injuries/transfers in the Gopher's program, it has to be addressed. Any team that loses four potential starters (Devoe, Cobbs, Mbakwe, Royce, Walker) any coach or program is going to regress significantly. Fans will complain about depth and how Tubby should of recruited better; his backups went 5-12 in a year where they played 10 teams that were at the time ranked in the top 25; I believe that's the most matchups against top 25 teams in a season in the last 20 years according to gophersports.com. The aforementioned transfers/injuries are facts, speculation about Tubby "losing" his players, out of touch with today's B1G, is all speculation. Now you can believe whatever you want, but Tubby is playing with ALL backups right now and they still manage to win five games and came damn close in a handful of other games. Royce breaking the law and Devoe doing whatever he did has absolutely nothing to do with Tubby. Mbakwe and Walker obviously aren't Tubby's fault. So point the finger all you want at Tubby. I, as a fan, personally don't care what Jim Souhan writes. We all have such a short memory and often forget that Dre/Austin/Coleman/Rodney/Sampson are ALL second tier players when compared to what have should of been. If you are indeed a BigGopherFan as your moniker suggests, you would see that this team is a result of an aftermath of bad luck. Should Tubby be blamed at all? In some ways yes. Remember that this is Tubby's JV team and they still were competitive in most B1G games.

this is a great post. it turns Rodney Williams from what the vast majority on this board thought was a sure fire lottery pick from the moment he arrived on campus into a B Squad / 2nd tier player.

wants to praise Tubby for by the posters own admission getting a talentless roster of players recruited by him to 5 conference wins and coming close in some others.

the future is bright indeed!

 

[GophersInIowa]

And Royce White...who knows. I blame the kid for being an idiot and I don't blame Smith for recruiting him. But why couldn't Smith connect with White like Hoiberg obviously is? Royce said he would have attended Minnesota no matter who the coach was, so don't think Smith's superior recruiting brought him in, because it didn't. He was going to sign with the Gophers regardless of the coach.

I'm not going to comment on much of this stuff because, honestly, I'm just getting sick of the pissing and moaning on both sides (which I've been a big part of, not pointing fingers at anyone). This season sucks. I feel Tubby should get at least another year. Some feel the same way, others don't. That's fine.

But stuff like the bolded is kinda pointless to argue about because there really is no way of knowing. Maybe Tubby couldn't connect with White or didn't even try. Maybe White was just immature and getting a fresh start somewhere else was what he needed to grow up a little. Maybe the friends he had in MN were bad influences on him and now that he's away from him, he's staying out of trouble. Lots of maybe's there. In my mind, it's pointless to even bring it up because we don't know. Tubby could have done anything and everything a coach could do and it just wasn't getting through to White, or maybe Tubby didn't do a thing to try and help him.

 

[bga1]

Required reading for anyone that wants to discuss transfers

Interesting article. Certainly top 100 players arrive with the high expectation of the red carpet threatment. If something goes wrong - they may well transfer based on failed expectations. So we know this: Almost 25% of all top 100 players transfer. Some of them transfer due to coaching changes- the coach that recruited them leaves. So now we are at some lesser percentage that transfer if the coach stays. So let's put that number at 15 to 20 %. How many top 100's has Tubby recruited and how many have left. How does that percentage compare to the average?

 

[GophersInIowa]

Interesting article. Certainly top 100 players arrive with the high expectation of the red carpet threatment. If something goes wrong - they may well transfer based on failed expectations. So we know this: Almost 25% of all top 100 players transfer. Some of them transfer due to coaching changes- the coach that recruited them leaves. So now we are at some lesser percentage that transfer if the coach stays. So let's put that number at 15 to 20 %. How many top 100's has Tubby recruited and how many have left. How does that percentage compare to the average?

I think what's more alarming is how many high school kids transfer now days. It's ridiculous.

 

[gopher000]

So what? Monson lost the top Big Ten shot blocker Pryz one year in midseason, lost an all Big Ten player in Hump 3 years early, lost a second team all Big Ten player in Rickert two years early, Bickerstaff got injured midyear, Bauer hurt midyear, Schilling gone, Hargrow gone midyear, Smith departed early one year, Kane, Gaines, Washington, Tucker and Collins all left or couldn't get in school and then he got fired. That's the way it goes when you don't recurit or retain players that win.

losing Hump was addition by subtraction, ultimate team cancer

 

[jamiche]

Dim Soupcan needs no discrediting. He does that plenty well enough on his own. Anything and everything he writes is a complete joke. He is a disgrace to the writing profession in particular and the human race in general.

So how much responsibility has Tubby taken for a Big Ten record over the last nearly two seasons of somewhere around 10-25?

 

[bga1]

losing Hump was addition by subtraction, ultimate team cancer

Maybe but that team might have won zero Big Ten games without him.

 

[BJD50]

Someone previously posted Tubby's transfer numbers. I don't recall if they included MN or not, but his UK transfer rate was about the same as both Cal's and Pitino's.

That is simply not true. tubby lost players at an alarming rate at UK. Now maybe Calipari does too, but they are going to the NBA. Not leaving disgruntled over micro management and playing style and not getting better as a player. Those are the reasons players leave tubby.

The article that came out today about Howland at UCLA could be written about tubby. For some reason tubby has always been protected by the media. Gerald Fitch said about tubby once after he left that, "there are two tubbys, the one the public sees and the one the players see". Fitch was not a disgruntled player, he was a tubby favorite. For him to say it speaks volumes. Magloire said after he got to the NBA and was surprising people with his offensive moves that he had them all along and wasn't allowed to use then at Ky.

 

[jamalo]

Gerald Fitch said about tubby once after he left that, "there are two tubbys, the one the public sees and the one the players see". Fitch was not a disgruntled player, he was a tubby favorite. For him to say it speaks volumes. Magloire said after he got to the NBA and was surprising people with his offensive moves that he had them all along and wasn't allowed to use then at Ky.

Which is why we likely have a low probability of landing either of the top 2014 guys

 

[jamalo]

Maybe Tubby couldn't connect with White or didn't even try. Maybe White was just immature and getting a fresh start somewhere else was what he needed to grow up a little. Maybe the friends he had in MN were bad influences on him and now that he's away from him, he's staying out of trouble. Lots of maybe's there. In my mind, it's pointless to even bring it up because we don't know. Tubby could have done anything and everything a coach could do and it just wasn't getting through to White, or maybe Tubby didn't do a thing to try and help him.

White is on MIACturi. Beyond that, Tubby needs to take at least some accountability. Ryan James has some good observations on why Iverson left. Cobbs is spun as "homesick", but I'm skeptical based upon his tweets with DJ last year. Carter is the true elephant in the room. It was spun as transferring to be close to his sister, but there are many anecdotal statements which make it appear that other factors were at play (e.g., Carter's father's unhappiness with how he was being used; Tubby's initial refusal to grant a release). We'll probably not know the true stories until after Tubby is gone, and that would be only if JG or RJ or some other insider are willing to discuss them.

 

[minngg]

Ryan James new article.....This isn't about distractions, it is about players. Tubby's refusal to admit this is troubling. This team is not talented. Add Walker, add TM, you still have to have shooters and scorers.

 

[jamalo]

Ryan James new article.....This isn't about distractions, it is about players. Tubby's refusal to admit this is troubling. This team is not talented. Add Walker, add TM, you still have to have shooters and scorers.

I agree. I'm not trying to stir the pot, but Trevor would not have been the panacea that many feel he would have. We would probably have a couple of more conference wins, but he can't mask the turnover issues that have persisted throughout the season along with the lack of consistent scorers from game to game. With Trevor, the lineup changes this year relative to the end of last year would have essentially been Dre or Coleman + Welch for Hoff and Mav

 

[GophersInIowa]

That is simply not true. tubby lost players at an alarming rate at UK. Now maybe Calipari does too, but they are going to the NBA. Not leaving disgruntled over micro management and playing style and not getting better as a player. Those are the reasons players leave tubby.

Do you have anything to back that up? Not saying you are wrong, but anyone can simply say that. What players transferred when Tubby was at kentucky?

 

[lewiscountybrarhopper]

Do you have anything to back that up? Not saying you are wrong, but anyone can simply say that. What players transferred when Tubby was at kentucky?

Player transfers were a major gripe of UK fans. As a matter of fact, visiting this board is like visiting a UK forum during Tubby's last 5 - 6 years right down to the fan division. I think 13 players transferred during his tenure; 2 Mr. Basketballs, 6 Gatorade players ofthe year, 4 parade all Americans and 2 McDonalds all Americans. Some of those players received multiple awards. Most fans came to believe that the talented kids didn’t want to play for him once they discovered he really wasn't going to play uptempo this year even though he said he would last year (sound familiar?). UK had to keep him longer than any other school because of the convenience of the race card. UK is the only SEC school that has had both a black head men's basketball coach and a black head football coach. If tubby would have kept the tradition alive UK fans could care less if he was green and had pointy ears.

 

[BigGopherFan]

Did Tubby get to the Final 4 in his last 9 seasons at UK?

 

[savagerube]

Ryan James new article.....This isn't about distractions, it is about players. Tubby's refusal to admit this is troubling. This team is not talented. Add Walker, add TM, you still have to have shooters and scorers.

You have told all of us that you were a basketball player. Therefore, you should be the first to know that talented big men draw double teams and open up the floor, giving the perimeter players open looks. I would say that Welch, Dre and Austin are all pretty good shooters when they have an open look.

 

[savagerube]

Player transfers were a major gripe of UK fans. As a matter of fact, visiting this board is like visiting a UK forum during Tubby's last 5 - 6 years right down to the fan division. I think 13 players transferred during his tenure; 2 Mr. Basketballs, 6 Gatorade players ofthe year, 4 parade all Americans and 2 McDonalds all Americans. Some of those players received multiple awards. Most fans came to believe that the talented kids didn’t want to play for him once they discovered he really wasn't going to play uptempo this year even though he said he would last year (sound familiar?). UK had to keep him longer than any other school because of the convenience of the race card. UK is the only SEC school that has had both a black head men's basketball coach and a black head football coach. If tubby would have kept the tradition alive UK fans could care less if he was green and had pointy ears.

Similar to GophersinIowa, I am not saying your wrong either. Do you have names of the aforementioned players? I was unaware that he had some many transfers of such high caliber players. If true, which your saying it is, that is pretty shocking.

 

[scher215]

You have told all of us that you were a basketball player. Therefore, you should be the first to know that talented big men draw double teams and open up the floor, giving the perimeter players open looks. I would say that Welch, Dre and Austin are all pretty good shooters when they have an open look.

From 3:

Welch is shooting 43.4%
Austin is shooting 35.2%
Andre is shooting 39.2%

But there are no shooters on this team.