Scoggins talks to four coaches anonymously about the Gophers job

One coach stated "Think about the contrast between [Duke's] Cameron Indoor Stadium, which is a dump, and [North Carolina's] Dean Smith Center, which is like an NBA arena. But it's how you brand it. If you're not winning, then you can't brand it the right way."

Enough said.
 

"You don't get to have anything new and nice, until you decide to bootstrap yourself from nothing and win. Only Then, will we give you a bunch of nice, new stuff, that will then help you keep winning."
 

You are the exception. This is a pro town and people stop going to games when you lose. That can look like impatience. Not sure it is.

100% on this, I think there is very little that will keep people interested. But I don't think that costs a coach their job.

If a coach was here and was a career .500 conference coach, we made a handful of tournaments, etc., I don't think the casual fan would care. A lot of local fans are complete idiots when it comes to college sports.

However, I don't think that coach would be canned. The casuals would show up during the occasional good year/tournament run and then disappear otherwise. I don't think that coach is on the hot seat.
 

But to be great a coach has to be great. To build a program identity, to evaluate and implement, to build something sustainable takes great skill. Only a select few have that.
That’s true.
But a great coach has different levels of success at different schools they have coached at. And they know it. Which is why your guy left Wazzu for Virginia. And it is why Bo Ryan left A UW school for Madison. It’s why coach K didn’t stay at Army. It’s why Rick P when to Kentucky
 

One coach stated "Think about the contrast between [Duke's] Cameron Indoor Stadium, which is a dump, and [North Carolina's] Dean Smith Center, which is like an NBA arena. But it's how you brand it. If you're not winning, then you can't brand it the right way."

Enough said.
Duke can brand Cameron with tons of banners, an iconic coach, and a roster full of NBA players. Yes, I agree, if you're a blue blood none of the other things matter.
 


A few thoughts on this article ---

1) These coaches weren't as negative about this program as some posters are implying. They weren't even all that negative about the Barn. I didn't read any of them saying the U needs a new arena - I read the word "upgrade." And the fact that an extremely successful program also has an old style arena (Cameron) was also mentioned.

2) Rating this job as falling in the lower middle of the league is not such a bad appraisal. I've seen worse for this program. There was an article some years back using ratings from anonymous Big Ten coaches and other measures that ranked this job much lower in the conference than that (bottom 3 as I recall). One of the reasons for the lower ratings was that this university was rated as having the second toughest (to Northwestern) academic standards in the conference so eligibility situations were more stringent here.

If this job is the 7th or 8th best in the conference, then Pitino has performed below that overall in his tenure (11th or lower in 5 years, 7th or better in 3 years but one of those 7th place finishes was in a 12 team league). If we could get a basketball coach who could perform at the league average right now, that wouldn't look so bad. Say we had these conference rankings (from highest to lowest) over 8 years: 4, 5, 5, 6, 8, 9, 11, 12. That would average out to 7.5 (exactly the median finish of conference teams). We'd likely end up with at least 4 NCAA tournaments, a couple of NITs, and two years of no postseason. Pitino's average placement in-conference is 9.75.

3) I don't agree with an implication that the fans here are impatient. If you judge by reading Gopherhole (or perhaps some of the mainstream local press), you might think that the fans are impatient but I spent most of my adult life as an Iowa basketball fan and I would say those fans are far more impatient.

However, what appears to be relative patience may be apathy. Just because this is the only D1 CBB job in the state doesn't mean this place is a "fishbowl" as one of the commentators suggested. Places like Iowa City (in BB and FB) and Lincoln (at least in FB) are fishbowls. Former Iowa coach George Raveling could only take it for 3 years before moving on to USC; in Los Angeles he could walk the streets or go out to dinner without a bunch of local yokels approaching him to critique the team. Lute Olson hung on for 9 years but then left to take over a dormant program in Tucson which he proceeded to turn into a powerhouse.

One of the striking things I noticed in my early years in Minnesota is that when I went to a bar/restaurant in the suburban Twin Cities, either the Gopher game wasn't on at all or it was maybe on one TV but few were paying close attention to it. When you go to a bar in my small town (not that far from the Twin Cities), the Vikings, Twins, and Wild are always on during their seasons and the Timberwolves are on occasionally (when the Wild aren't playing) but the Gophers are very rarely being watched (although the hockey team definitely does better).

This may be the only D1 program in the state but it's also worth remembering that the majority of undergraduates and alumni who attended college in Minnesota attended other institutions where athletics had a much lower profile. Their support for Gopher athletics is a little more tepid. I'm a Gopher fan because I've been a Big Ten fan since my early twenties and this is the only Big Ten program in the state but it took about 10 years of living here until I started watching regularly.
 

I re-read Scoggins article, and most discussion here is about Williams. I do think there's at least a little something to the negativity (see "Coach 2" remarks), and quick to turn sour topic (Pitino's 8 year tenure aside as the indicator of patience). It's sort of a toned down version of the way that Reusse comes across. Why, unless complete shtick, would Reusse and most fans find any fault with Fleck at this point, as an example. When Reusse says "shouldn't hire this guy as he's too much like Fleck. . .", it's ridiculous and Reusse does the mostly intelligent fan base a disservice with that constant tone/take. Shame Richard Pitino not working out, for all the reasons many have stated, but confident Coyle will make a smart hire. We'll see.
 


They can still track you. Probably just log your IP and increment a counter for the month on how many articles you try to view.
Haven’t had any limitation issues
 



I think this type of feedback has value for sure. But to ask coaches about other coaches (even if anonymous) is silly. Just listen to any color guy on a radio or TV broadcast that was a former coach. They all endlessly gush about “how good of a coaching job” coach X is doing at whatever school they are broadcasting. It’s happened many times this year during Gopher broadcasts, and most here would agree the coaching has been suspect at best. The coaching fraternity is deep and very few speak bad of others, even if anonymous.

There is no way you can claim after giving Pitino 8 years that we are impatient. Most aren’t expecting the world, either. Just competency.
I agree with this to some extent, in that it does show the difficulties that a coach has here. To be successful here, a coach has to improve the quality of athletes. All coaches at this level can X and O, the good ones are the ones who can recruit. Players win games. What the reporter should have done is interview several former local recruits (Reuvers, Hurt, Wright, etc.) and find out why they didn't go to the U. Is it something specific that a new coach can correct or did they just want to leave the state?
 

The part about facilities is a great topic of conversation, and I appreciate what Chip did gathering this anonymous input. These are important voices, but there are other voices who'd say different things. There are no cut-and-dried answers to these questions. There are obviously some deep divides in opinion here. A couple of my favorite lines from Star Trek:

SPOCK: Has it occurred to you that there's a certain inefficiency in constantly questioning me on things you've already made up your mind about?
KIRK: It gives me emotional security.

In another episode...KIRK (to Helen Noel): One of the advantages of being a Captain, Doctor, is being able to ask for advice without necessarily having to take it.

There are all kinds of people with all kinds of ideas, some better than others. It pays to listen to everyone, but as I sometimes joke about the project I'm leading right now: if I ask 30 people for their input, I'm likely to get 40 opinions. At the end of the day, you can't focus-group your way through decisions of this sort. They require robust input but, more importantly, vision and bold leadership.

A few thoughts:
  • As much as I mourned the loss of Memorial Stadium and still feel bad about its destruction, I feel like we ended up in a really good place, even though we had to wander in the wilderness like the Israelites to get there. It's hard to imagine still playing in the old stadium. It would have had to be stripped down to the outside walls and completely reinvented.
  • I think the original designers and builders of Williams would be surprised that we're still using it as a competition venue to this day. I don't even think that was its originally envisioned function. We've gotten a lot of mileage out of that building.
  • Williams Arena is a mixed bag, as I've written about before. I absolutely LOVE watching games there, but the fan experience is lacking in a lot of key ways.
  • It's now over 25 years since Williams' last renovation. You have to keep renewing a place like that or it does become outmoded. If plans aren't being made for its next renewal, there should be.
  • This community has a mixed history of historic preservation and getting use out of old facilities. We've torn down a lot of great stuff, but when we set our minds to preservation, we've done a pretty dang good job of it. Don't look now, but the international airport in its current conception is over 60 years old, and say what you want about it, but it's better than ever because we've kept working on it. I think of it the same way I think of Dodger Stadium: a midcentury gem that I hope is never demolished.
  • Speaking of Dodger Stadium, it's the third oldest venue in MLB (!). Is Royals Stadium the fourth? Assembly Hall in Bloomington is a half century old this year. It and Royals Stadium are stunningly beautiful and functional reflections of their age, and like Dodger Stadium I hope they can be made to last forever.
I'm personally OK with either keeping Williams rolling or replacing it. Either way, whatever you do, it needs to be first class with an emphasis on optimizing both the fan and player experience and not losing what makes the existing situation unique, distinctive and special. When you talk about what you have to sell to fans and recruits, I personally think that trying to sell what everyone else has is inherently difficult. Different is good.
Other good on campus examples are Northrup, Coffman, and the half dozen other buildings that have been renovated like Tate. Outside of the U, there is the State, Orpheum, Fitzgerald, and Palace. All redone and fantastic venues.


Tearing down Williams also means destroying one of the best smaller sports venues in college in the Pavilion.

Great thing is there are three (four if you count US Bank) venues that Gophs can use while doing a major renovation.
 

I'm all for a Williams arena upgrade, first let's get a coach in here who the average fan is excited for
 

That’s true.
But a great coach has different levels of success at different schools they have coached at. And they know it. Which is why your guy left Wazzu for Virginia. And it is why Bo Ryan left A UW school for Madison. It’s why coach K didn’t stay at Army. It’s why Rick P when to Kentucky
No doubt. UVA offered all kinds of advantages the best one being fit and a opportunity to take on UNC and Duke. Damn 5 ACC titles since he got there and Duke has one in that time. WSU had a conference title ceiling with poor resources, poor location and terrible facilities with really tough travel and average academics. He wanted something like Stanford but more competition and more success. In that sense it was not like Pitino at Kentucky which was not about culture and academics. He turned down better winning programs like IU, better recruiting like LSU but the fit was perfect and then with his wife being a southern lady , the South fit. the cauldron of ferocious competition was a pull as he is extremely competitive but he wanted to not only do it but do it clean. I shared a bulk of time with him that August after the move and he told me he was not sure he could win there but that it would be built clean. I told him he did not need to tell me that because he only knows that way, and that he would win big.
 




The crew here isn't going to like what they say about Williams Arena. But it's 100 percent accurate.

I like Williams Arena, but the seats are way too narrow and the legroom is poor also. You go there with a winter coat, and it is challenging to deal with the space issue.
 

No doubt. UVA offered all kinds of advantages the best one being fit and a opportunity to take on UNC and Duke. Damn 5 ACC titles since he got there and Duke has one in that time. WSU had a conference title ceiling with poor resources, poor location and terrible facilities with really tough travel and average academics. He wanted something like Stanford but more competition and more success. In that sense it was not like Pitino at Kentucky which was not about culture and academics. He turned down better winning programs like IU, better recruiting like LSU but the fit was perfect and then with his wife being a southern lady , the South fit. the cauldron of ferocious competition was a pull as he is extremely competitive but he wanted to not only do it but do it clean. I shared a bulk of time with him that August after the move and he told me he was not sure he could win there but that it would be built clean. I told him he did not need to tell me that because he only knows that way, and that he would win big.
My point is, it isn’t just about hiring a great coach:
You need to have the right things going in other variables to attract a great coach, keep a great coach, and recruit the types of people to help a great coach reach their potential.
 

I said in every post that a great coach is a bigger need. Also Clem was 25 years ago. No high school kid was even alive then. The “Clem did it here” is a joke and means nothing to kids now a days. You are right in that winning will help, but it can be true that we need a better coach and that we can get to a “Purdue” level with the right guy. That argument is literally true at any university though. It also can be true that Williams is a dump and not helpful in recruiting. MN high school kids have no attachment to it.
Any kid who picks based on the playing venue is an idiot. Would you be better off playing in a mausoleum at ohio a communist bunker at wisconsin or a court where your fans are right on top of the court? Every court is the exact same dimension. The venue is not as important as winning.
 

Any kid who picks based on the playing venue is an idiot. Would you be better off playing in a mausoleum at ohio a communist bunker at wisconsin or a court where your fans are right on top of the court? Every court is the exact same dimension. The venue is not as important as winning.
While you might be true,

some basketball players are idiots and very good basketball players.


For instance, I’d rather have Derrick rose than maverick ahanmisi even if Mav had a better (and real) ACT score
 

Any kid who picks based on the playing venue is an idiot. Would you be better off playing in a mausoleum at ohio a communist bunker at wisconsin or a court where your fans are right on top of the court? Every court is the exact same dimension. The venue is not as important as winning.
Nobody said kids pick a school 100% based on venue.

The fact is, the venue IS a factor. Other things being equal, kids will most likely pick a venue with a good player experience.

so either you're a blue blood and the stadium is always rockin or your a middle to bottom tier B1G ten team and you'll get some good players, sure, but when there have been gopher players of the past stating "you have to be careful playing at Williams bc of the raised floor" as an example. that is something the U should look into it more.
 

My point is, it isn’t just about hiring a great coach:
You need to have the right things going in other variables to attract a great coach, keep a great coach, and recruit the types of people to help a great coach reach their potential.
Agree. There is everything you need here.
While you might be true,

some basketball players are idiots and very good basketball players.


For instance, I’d rather have Derrick rose than maverick ahanmisi even if Mav had a better (and real) ACT score
While you might be true,

some basketball players are idiots and very good basketball players.


For instance, I’d rather have Derrick rose than maverick ahanmisi even if Mav had a better (and real) ACT score
Not me. With Rose you have to vacate wins.
 


With maverick you wouldn’t have wins to vacate
To each their own. I will take the few wins we get and the dignity. Plus there is a great chance that with the right coach we get a far better player than Mav.
 

Hire the perfect coach that can win the big ten title in two years and make that final four run in three years. I’m tired of below average, I think pay for these coaches should be based on performance.
 

They can still track you. Probably just log your IP and increment a counter for the month on how many articles you try to view.
It's one. But if you close it and then open a new article incognito you can read it.
 

Absolutely nailed it. Let's build an arena that looks just like the Kohl Center and watch the recruits flood in. Sure.

Every coach everywhere is conditioned to complain about the facilities. Always ask for bigger and better and complain that what you have is hindering your ability to win.
I don't understand why people who oppose a new arena always say a new one will be just like the Kohl Center. It's just a terrible argument. Look at the Excel Center, Mariucci, TCF Bank Stadium, Target Field. You can build a new stadium that has character and is better than what we have now. It doesn't guarantee winning, but to say we have to copy the Kohl Center is lazy.
 

To each their own. I will take the few wins we get and the dignity. Plus there is a great chance that with the right coach we get a far better player than Mav.
I don’t disagree with anything you said. I was just using Derrick rose to demonstrate that the guy claiming that all kids who choose based on arena are idiots that you
Might still want a player who doesn’t like Williams arena.

I chose rose because it’s on the record he is a dummy
 

Any kid who picks based on the playing venue is an idiot. Would you be better off playing in a mausoleum at ohio a communist bunker at wisconsin or a court where your fans are right on top of the court? Every court is the exact same dimension. The venue is not as important as winning.
You’re right. Every kid loves the barn and considers it the best arena ever or they are an “idiot”. Good call...
 

Hire the perfect coach that can win the big ten title in two years and make that final four run in three years. I’m tired of below average, I think pay for these coaches should be based on performance.
If you looked at where Pitinos salary ranked compared to other B1G coaches it’s similar to his placement in B1G records, so you could say he was.
 

I don't understand why people who oppose a new arena always say a new one will be just like the Kohl Center. It's just a terrible argument. Look at the Excel Center, Mariucci, TCF Bank Stadium, Target Field. You can build a new stadium that has character and is better than what we have now. It doesn't guarantee winning, but to say we have to copy the Kohl Center is lazy.
Cut programs, increase tuition, naming rights, tax exempt bonds, athletic foundations?
 

While not to dismiss coaching and player development, the biggest issue is getting players. In today's world, kids have been told they are "special" almost from the day they are born. The high profile sports stars (football, basketball) are going to go to a school that continues to make them feel special. How do they feel special?

1 - By being mentioned in glowing terms all the time in the local media. In Minnesota, the Gophers are bottom feeders to the pro sports team. Articles are far more likely to be negative than positive. Just like the Star Tribunes annual swipe at the Gophers at tournament time - this year on athletic dept administration lack of diversity.

2 - By being held in esteem on campus. Minnesota has a campus environment that seems to swing between indifferent to down right hostile to high profile athletes.

Gonzaga is an example. Players worshipped on campus. Great positive news all the time. Mediocre school in a rather nondescript town. But look at what they now recruit.

In the old days, kids might not have known this until they came on campus. It today's social media world, they know EVERYTHING.

The only solution in my mind is the PJ Fleck plan - basically - create a "bubble" around your team in which everyone does feel special - part of a team - insulated from the outside influences. PJ is doing it - and his recruiting is improving, his team is getting better, and his coaching is improving. Whalen looks to be doing the same thing.

Basketball needs a game changing personality to build a bubble and create a insulated culture. Not sure any of the names mentioned are it. But that's what the program needs.
 




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