Red-Shirt Shortell?

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I say yes, if at all possible. Thoughts?
 

He didn't look so good in practice on Wednesday. He's big and he throws a nice looking ball but he got intercepted a few times. I don't see that he is ready yet, but the other backups a all Frosh and they are even more green. I think he's got to be in as the #2.
 

What's up with Alipate, seems to be getting no love, but I thought he looked good in the spring game.
 

Redshirt anyone you can at all costs. If Kill has a long term plan, that should certainly be part of it. I've said it a dozen times, but it still burns me that Brewster stupidly wasted McKnight's freshman year (among others). If a freshman is obviously ready and is head and shoulders above his peers on the team, he plays, otherwise he sits and learns from the sidelines.
 

I agree with Breakin' the Plane, you try to redshirt at absolutely all costs. Our prospects for 2012 would be looking so good if McKnight, Kirksey, Tinsley, and Stoud were all heading into their JR seasons this year.

That said, if Shortell is the obvious second best player and he has a chance to see significant PT, I don't think you can afford to do it. What I mean is that a situation where Gray is going to miss signficant PT, then you burn it and let Shortell run. If it is just in minor subsitutions for Gray and mop up duty....I don't burn the RS.
 


That's a good question btown. It is sort of enigmatic. Alipate looked good in the spring game and has actually looked decent every chance he's had (including today). However, he is still not in good shape at all.

I think it might be a situation where Kill isn't going to take him seriously as a football player until he proves he is taking it seriously (conditioning wise). I think maybe Kill is taking this year to give him a dose of tough love and not even consider him for playing until he is in better shape, and if he comes back next season in shape....he'll be considered for the depth chart.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
I agree with Breakin' the Plane, you try to redshirt at absolutely all costs. Our prospects for 2012 would be looking so good if McKnight, Kirksey, Tinsley, and Stoud were all heading into their JR seasons this year.

That said, if Shortell is the obvious second best player and he has a chance to see significant PT, I don't think you can afford to do it. What I mean is that a situation where Gray is going to miss signficant PT, then you burn it and let Shortell run. If it is just in minor subsitutions for Gray and mop up duty....I don't burn the RS.
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+1

In the end, I really hope we are able to redshirt him.
 

Alipate is buried - I was at practice on Monday and believe me, right now, there's one guy he may be ahead of, but that QB signals the plays in (and holds). I think the issue is as much about leadership as anything. Kill has talked often about the QB is the leader - no matter what - hence his challenges to M Gray. Thus, your QB/Leader cannot be a guy who doesn't work - period. Alipate may be a nice kid and all, but even watching him doing warmups - it's like he's out for a walk in the park. Your QB has to a) care, and b) work, and maybe Alipate cares, but his demeanor doesn't show it, and by not getting in shape, he doesn't appear to work either.
 

With Alipate completely out of the picture, Shortell will be the backup, and will play quite a bit. Kill is going to recruit 2 QBs in every class, so there will never be an "heir apparent," or even what you could call a "three year starter" in any class. It seems that Kill likes two year "starters" with lots of reps for the other QBs he considers to be players. With Nelson and Leidner coming in next year, there is no longer a reason to RS Shortell. If Robert Gregory commits, it's a lock.
 



Gray has to be on the field he is that good. He is one of the best receivers. I would start Shortell at QB and have McKnight and Gray as the best WR tandem in the Big Ten. We need to win now, to start the turn around and improve our out state recruiting.
 

Jon said:
Gray has to be on the field he is that good. He is one of the best receivers. I would start Shortell at QB and have McKnight and Gray as the best WR tandem in the Big Ten. We need to win now, to start the turn around and improve our out state recruiting.
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I hope this is a joke. becuase Gray should not be a WR. He is our starting QB. no way should Shortell should be our starting QB. Gray better then him.
 

i disagree with most of the opinions here. i believe it is important for coach Kill to demonstrate improvement in the program during this first year. it's necessary for recruiting, fund raising and morale.

As down as we have been, we need to see some 2011 upside.
 

TCF=UnitedWeStand said:
Alipate is buried - I was at practice on Monday and believe me, right now, there's one guy he may be ahead of, but that QB signals the plays in (and holds). I think the issue is as much about leadership as anything. Kill has talked often about the QB is the leader - no matter what - hence his challenges to M Gray. Thus, your QB/Leader cannot be a guy who doesn't work - period. Alipate may be a nice kid and all, but even watching him doing warmups - it's like he's out for a walk in the park. Your QB has to a) care, and b) work, and maybe Alipate cares, but his demeanor doesn't show it, and by not getting in shape, he doesn't appear to work either.
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100% agree with this post. I saw the same demeanor during practice where he appears to be loafing rather than working to get better. He is behind 3 freshman. That should tell you something.
 



For those of you who have attended practice, has Shortell outperformed Parish? I'm guessing his upside is probably higher than Parish's but is he more ready right now?
 

mkAz said:
For those of you who have attended practice, has Shortell outperformed Parish? I'm guessing his upside is probably higher than Parish's but is he more ready right now?
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I was there last week. Shortell doesn't look like an 18 year old kid, he is tall and thick, but he moves really good and might have the best arm on the depth chart from what I saw. He also missed some throws and threw some picks. I thought Parish looked more polished when I was there and even earned time with the first team. That was what I saw, granted it is a small sample size.
 

It would be rare to see a true freshmen getting significant playing time at QB especially being Kill didn't hand pick Shortell but rather honored Brewster's commitment. That being said this issue is truly one we will have to wait and see.
 

I went to two practices, the most recent this past Monday, and I thought Parish, Foreman, and Shortell all threw the ball pretty well, but on Monday, it seemed to me that both Parrish and Foreman threw very well. I like Shortell too! MarQuise is my favorite Gopher right now, and I want him to be the QB, but his ball is so inconsistent... That said, he is the guy for now, no question. However, he has to prove he can throw the ball or teams are going to stack and make it that much tougher for him to run. Plus, the less he throws the bigger the pounding he is going to take running the ball and I don't care if he's 250 lbs of muscle, that will wear on him.

Personally, I think the coaches may sort of be wondering "who do we like better - Nelson, or Shortell?" If they like Nelson better, and feel Shortell is the clear-cut number two this year, then don't redshirt Shortell and let him start his junior and senior year after MG is gone. Nelson then redshirts next year, and then when Shortell graduates, Nelson will be a junior and ready to take over.

Either way, having Shortell is huge, even just for depth purposes, but I think if in a pinch (injuries), I don't feel all that bad about Parish either.
 

gophersfan said:
I hope this is a joke. becuase Gray should not be a WR. He is our starting QB. no way should Shortell should be our starting QB. Gray better then him.
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Nope no joke; I biked down to yesterday's practice and watched for a bit. While I was there Shortell and Gary got most of the playing time. I was interested in the quarterback position mostly so that was what I was focused on. I did not see anything from Gray other than he is an amazing athlete but not a QB. I was paying attention to how the other players responded to the different QBs. I noticed that Shortell seemed to have a good rapport with his line. I also noticed after Parish connected on a TD pass that he went and got an attaboy from Shortell.

Tubby should have let Maverick run the point and kept Hoffarber at shooting guard and Kill should keep Gary at WR and fill the QB with the next best option; Shortell in my opinion and let him grow or not into it.
 


On Sid's show Sunday, Kill at least twice used the phrase "empty classes" in describing the team's depth - in other words, due to attrition from a couple of Brewster's classes, Kill says the Gophs don't have the depth he wants, and they will likely to forced to play true freshmen this year.

Here's my point - unless it becomes a matter of survival, I would like to see Kill redshirt as many FR as possible. The U has been losing the numbers game to other big 10 schools for too long. Look at Wisconsin - they almost always have 3 or 4 5th-year seniors in their offensive lines. That's how you build a team to compete in the Big 10.

I think Kill needs to take a long-term approach to building this team. I would rather see the Gophs bite the bullet this year and redshirt most of the FR, even if it costs the team in the final standings.

I realize that would not sit well with a lot of fans and boosters, but the U has to stop taking the short-term approach to building a FB team. They just need to be honest about what they're doing and why, and I think the real fans would understand.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
On Sid's show Sunday, Kill at least twice used the phrase "empty classes" in describing the team's depth - in other words, due to attrition from a couple of Brewster's classes, Kill says the Gophs don't have the depth he wants, and they will likely to forced to play true freshmen this year.

Here's my point - unless it becomes a matter of survival, I would like to see Kill redshirt as many FR as possible. The U has been losing the numbers game to other big 10 schools for too long. Look at Wisconsin - they almost always have 3 or 4 5th-year seniors in their offensive lines. That's how you build a team to compete in the Big 10.

I think Kill needs to take a long-term approach to building this team. I would rather see the Gophs bite the bullet this year and redshirt most of the FR, even if it costs the team in the final standings.

I realize that would not sit well with a lot of fans and boosters, but the U has to stop taking the short-term approach to building a FB team. They just need to be honest about what they're doing and why, and I think the real fans would understand.
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+1 The real fans not only understand this but would be disappointed if any other approach were followed. Whether in business, sports, arts, etc., those who maximize the short-term usually end up with long-term mediocrity. Kill has time to take a long-term perspective. Unfortunately, in 2011, he probably won't have the luxury to redshirt all that he'd like. Next year should be a different story.
 

I think it is important to remember that Shortell completed 53% of his passes as a senior and was all-conference honorable mention. It seems a bit unrealistic to think that a player with that resume would be able to perform at a high level as a true freshman in the Big Ten. What scares me even more is that so many think he has looked so good. I hope that does not mean that the other QB's are not very good and/or the defense can't make him look like the true freshman that he is.
 

Coach Kill is not one to do short-sighted things or knuckle under to pressure. I think that has been proven over and over in his history. The way that the 2012 class is shaping up, it is abundantly clear that he is not worried about playing Freshman like Shortell (2 QBs in 2012 class, maybe a 3rd), and maybe Foster Bush and Tommy Olson (Hayes and Pirsig in 2012).

Even Crawford-Tufts may get a look at WR with Fruechte and likely another WR coming in 2012.

Anyone that believes that Kill would burn redshirts this year for no other reason that to get quick or short-term results in 2011 doesn't understand what the man is about.
 

highwayman said:
Coach Kill is not one to do short-sighted things or knuckle under to pressure. I think that has been proven over and over in his history. The way that the 2012 class is shaping up, it is abundantly clear that he is not worried about playing Freshman like Shortell (2 QBs in 2012 class, maybe a 3rd), and maybe Foster Bush and Tommy Olson (Hayes and Pirsig in 2012).

Even Crawford-Tufts may get a look at WR with Fruechte and likely another WR coming in 2012.

Anyone that believes that Kill would burn redshirts this year for no other reason that to get quick or short-term results in 2011 doesn't understand what the man is about.
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I think it is a combo. Maybe Kill and staff have gone through the classes and see that next year will be the best year to red-shirt the entire class if possible. They need enough bodies to be competitive this year. I think next year will be the year that it is more essential to get kids red-shirted.
 

I disagree with the general sentiment of most here. I think you try to find out who your two deep is based on demonstrated ability in the spring and fall and you redshirt any freshman who isn't in it.

You hope to build a program where a year's worth of experience puts returning players head and shoulders above the new guys so that you seldom play freshmen but that is an outcome, not something engineered by benching better players. Wisconsin does not have a lot of fifth year seniors because they redshifted a better player to somehow save him for the future. They play their good freshmen (see Taylor, Borland, White, etc.).

When the difference between the 2 and 3 is VERY close, then I can see 'breaking the tie' by playing the older guy and saving a season for the freshman.
 

badgergopher said:
I disagree with the general sentiment of most here. I think you try to find out who your two deep is based on demonstrated ability in the spring and fall and you redshirt any freshman who isn't in it.

You hope to build a program where a year's worth of experience puts returning players head and shoulders above the new guys so that you seldom play freshmen but that is an outcome, not something engineered by benching better players. Wisconsin does not have a lot of fifth year seniors because they redshifted a better player to somehow save him for the future. They play their good freshmen (see Taylor, Borland, White, etc.).

When the difference between the 2 and 3 is VERY close, then I can see 'breaking the tie' by playing the older guy and saving a season for the freshman.
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Good post.
I think most of us agree with this sentiment, it's actually exactly how I think.

I think the best players should round up the depth chart. I have no problem with us burning the RS of Jones, DCT, Olson, Campion or any other freshman who will see a decent chunk of playing time.

However, I think a lot this debate comes down because the QB position is often different. If Shortell will see significant PT, I don't think any of us would want the U to keep his RS. However, if he isn't going to see PT (which is different than a 6th OL (Campion) or a 5th WR (DCT)), I don't think it's really worth burning his RS simply to pencil him in over someone he is marginally better than (Parish).
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Good post.
I think most of us agree with this sentiment, it's actually exactly how I think.

I think the best players should round up the depth chart. I have no problem with us burning the RS of Jones, DCT, Olson, Campion or any other freshman who will see a decent chunk of playing time.

However, I think a lot this debate comes down because the QB position is often different. If Shortell will see significant PT, I don't think any of us would want the U to keep his RS. However, if he isn't going to see PT (which is different than a 6th OL (Campion) or a 5th WR (DCT)), I don't think it's really worth burning his RS simply to pencil him in over someone he is marginally better than (Parish).
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I get that. What makes this a little peculiar for us is that Weber played all the time. Knowing what we know now, if Max was backing up Weber we'd all say, 'don't burn his RS'. Most QB's probably aren't as durable as AW, so we'll probably need our #2.
 

badgergopher said:
I get that. What makes this a little peculiar for us is that Weber played all the time. Knowing what we know now, if Max was backing up Weber we'd all say, 'don't burn his RS'. Most QB's probably aren't as durable as AW, so we'll probably need our #2.
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Maybe a good example is the Michigan game in 2005. While Mortenson didn't win that game, he did play, if your starting QB goes down during the game with a chance to win the jug on the road, you don't want your 2nd best guy sitting on the bench because he didn't get any snaps during practice in hopes of extending his eligibility.
 

IF Coach Kill says he needs to use true freshmen: Coach Kill needs to use true frosh.

Coach Kill will be held totally responsible for the outcome of the Big Ten season. IF he says he needs more depth he HAS to get that depth ready for Big Ten play starting with game number ONE. IF Coach Kill does not win EVERY Big Ten game he has a shot at winning in season number one, he will NOT survive here at Minnesota. (brewster proved that point when he went 1-11 overall in season number one and a SHOCKING 0-8 in big Ten play in that first season. ) Coach Kill will be helping himself in season number one, two, three and four IF he utilizes and brings along MORE depth to use in Big Ten games.

None of us knows better than Coach Kill what Coach Kill really needs to do with the true freshmen players. Get as MANY players ready for the 2011 Big Ten season as you can, Coach Kill. Get them ready for RIGHT NOW! The future is now. Even just ONE Big Ten win in 2011 will buy you and your program a fifth season. IF your true freshmen players can help you in the 2011 Big Ten season...PLAY THEM.

I have seen how things work at the University of Minnesota for a LONG time...Football coaches who don't win enough Big Ten Games don't stand a chance to survive. The administrators crucify the football coach... and will give the ad who hired the fired football coach a raise and an offer to extend that ad's contract these days...at least ever since 2002...

By all means, Coach Kill: play ALL the true freshmen who can help you win Big Ten Football games. The MORE Big Ten wins you get in 2011...the more seasons you will have to BUILD your program.

And, it doesn't matter how much love the internet fans give you before your first season starts...at least ONE Big Ten win in season number one is crucial to your survival. Two or three Big Ten wins in season number one would buy you a LOT more time to build your program...assuming you run a completely honest program, graduate ever increasing numbers of Student Athletes and continue to win Big Ten Football Games on a consistant basis. IF the true freshman can play...make NO delay and play them right away!!!!!

; 0 )
 

I think you play your best players. Period. If you are talking your 5th wideout or your 8th lineman, you are no longer talking about your best players. If Shortell is the second best quarterback, then you don't redshirt him initially. You hope that Gray stays healthy and their is no need to use Shortell in an actual game. One question specific to Shortell is does he run well enough to be considered "the guy" long term for this staff? Keep in mind that they will have to win with Gray and/or a QB who is on the roster this year or will be on the roster next year. I think it's a legitimate question to ask if Coach Kill wants to tie his tenure at Minnesota to a 6'6 QB who is less of a run threat than he'd like.

One other aspect of redshirting that was not brought up yet is that kids want to play early. If kids are not going to be given a chance to compete for a job as true freshman (redshirt at all costs mentality) we likely will continue to compete with Western Michigan on the recruiting trail. I would be very surprised if any coaching staff would look to redshirt a player who could help them significantly in the current season.
 

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