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builtbadgers

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Can not remember or find who asked me to share some data but some may find this interesting. Will preface it by noting that many fans enjoy recruiting rankings. Here are the averages since Pitino started.
NOVA-27TH NATIONALLY
GOPH'S-46TH
UVA-47TH
UW-86TH.

As i noted on several occasions , Pitino has recruited just fine according to sites fans adore. In fact he has out recruited UW 5 out of 6 years. With UVA it was better in 3 of 6 seasons. Did not include 2020 becaus eit is not final. People can draw their own conclusions as to evaluations and development.
 


builtbadgers said:
Can not remember or find who asked me to share some data but some may find this interesting. Will preface it by noting that many fans enjoy recruiting rankings. Here are the averages since Pitino started.
NOVA-27TH NATIONALLY
GOPH'S-46TH
UVA-47TH
UW-86TH.

As i noted on several occasions , Pitino has recruited just fine according to sites fans adore. In fact he has out recruited UW 5 out of 6 years. With UVA it was better in 3 of 6 seasons. Did not include 2020 becaus eit is not final. People can draw their own conclusions as to evaluations and development.
Click to expand...

Pitino's recruiting reminds me of Brewster's for football- offer any/all highly rated players according the evaluation services, regardless of position or fit. Brewster would sign 4 five-star punters if they accepted. Pitino has put together some decent rosters, but also some of the worst in Gopher history.
The Minnesota misses are beyond maddening. His player development has been pretty decent- I'll give him a B+ in that department. Coaching-X's and O's and game management he's a D at best.
 

LesBolstad said:
Pitino's recruiting reminds me of Brewster's for football- offer any/all highly rated players according the evaluation services, regardless of position or fit. Brewster would sign 4 five-star punters if they accepted. Pitino has put together some decent rosters, but also some of the worst in Gopher history.
The Minnesota misses are beyond maddening. His player development has been pretty decent- I'll give him a B+ in that department. Coaching-X's and O's and game management he's a D at best.
Click to expand...
Thanks unfair, you never know when your punter will go down.
 

Seems to be an inordinate number of recruits who can’t play a lick. This past year our bench was a joke. If all goes well next season we could see better competition for playing time. I do believe in rating recruiting many marginal players get a huge bump just because a Big Ten school signs them Recruiting kids to fit your system is another issue just what is Pitino’s system?
 



LesBolstad said:
Pitino's recruiting reminds me of Brewster's for football- offer any/all highly rated players according the evaluation services, regardless of position or fit. Brewster would sign 4 five-star punters if they accepted. Pitino has put together some decent rosters, but also some of the worst in Gopher history.
The Minnesota misses are beyond maddening. His player development has been pretty decent- I'll give him a B+ in that department. Coaching-X's and O's and game management he's a D at best.
Click to expand...

His recruiting compared to Brewster could maybe fit for the first 3 years where you disregarded character. I think his biggest faults was a bad staff and lack of recruiting with a purpose. I think he had bad evaluators in his first staff mainly (Kimani) plus their earlier defensive game plans, positioning, and scouts were atrocious imo.

I've seen the last couple years improvements on teaching how to play defense. It's not great but it's gotten better and if this team wants to go further it's what needs to happen. I also see us recruiting certain guys. Most of the recruits we seem to be getting are known as decent defenders and fit more the grinder types. I'm seeing a style. As far as game planing, I've always thought offensively he's fine. It's not my preferred offense for enjoyment, but it grades out plenty efficient. His scouts defensively are better now, but I still would say average.

Recruiting: B
Xs and Os: B-
Teaching/System: D+
 

builtbadgers said:
Can not remember or find who asked me to share some data but some may find this interesting. Will preface it by noting that many fans enjoy recruiting rankings. Here are the averages since Pitino started.
NOVA-27TH NATIONALLY
GOPH'S-46TH
UVA-47TH
UW-86TH.

As i noted on several occasions , Pitino has recruited just fine according to sites fans adore. In fact he has out recruited UW 5 out of 6 years. With UVA it was better in 3 of 6 seasons. Did not include 2020 becaus eit is not final. People can draw their own conclusions as to evaluations and development.
Click to expand...
I totally agree Built, he has recruited talent. He hasn't recruited character or fit very well. Two of his higher regarded recruits flamed out pretty quickly.

IW and The Threesome Kid from Paul VI - Both point Guards and 4*

Then you have the two bigs who ate up 8 years of schollys!

Hurt

A Murderer.

An accused Sexual Predator

That's a big percentage of his recruits that caused huge problems and I'm not even mentioning a couple guys who transferred out without making any impact at all!

Gard, Virginia and Villanova have kept most of their recruits with a few exceptions now that the transfer portal is wide open and Blackshear and King have defected. Still, lots of three and four year players on those teams. You can have lower ranked classes if you keep them around and train them up like Kill and PJ do in Football. Although I think PJ finds kids who should be ranked higher than they are!
 

Otis said:
I totally agree Built, he has recruited talent. He hasn't recruited character or fit very well. Two of his higher regarded recruits flamed out pretty quickly.

IW and The Threesome Kid from Paul VI - Both point Guards and 4*

Then you have the two bigs who ate up 8 years of schollys!

Hurt

A Murderer.

An accused Sexual Predator

That's a big percentage of his recruits that caused huge problems and I'm not even mentioning a couple guys who transferred out without making any impact at all!

Gard, Virginia and Villanova have kept most of their recruits with a few exceptions now that the transfer portal is wide open and Blackshear and King have defected. Still, lots of three and four year players on those teams. You can have lower ranked classes if you keep them around and train them up like Kill and PJ do in Football. Although I think PJ finds kids who should be ranked higher than they are!
Click to expand...
Actually, Daquein McNeil was found not guilty of murder.
 




Otis said:
I totally agree Built, he has recruited talent. He hasn't recruited character or fit very well. Two of his higher regarded recruits flamed out pretty quickly.

IW and The Threesome Kid from Paul VI - Both point Guards and 4*

Then you have the two bigs who ate up 8 years of schollys!

Hurt

A Murderer.

An accused Sexual Predator

That's a big percentage of his recruits that caused huge problems and I'm not even mentioning a couple guys who transferred out without making any impact at all!

Gard, Virginia and Villanova have kept most of their recruits with a few exceptions now that the transfer portal is wide open and Blackshear and King have defected. Still, lots of three and four year players on those teams. You can have lower ranked classes if you keep them around and train them up like Kill and PJ do in Football. Although I think PJ finds kids who should be ranked higher than they are!
Click to expand...

Talking purely about recruiting....I think he has done a pretty decent job actually. I think he has shown growth in that area.
  1. Initially he recruited like he coached at Florida and/or Louisville. He set his sites too high and ended up with the two bigs who ate up 8 years of scholarship. I really don't feel like he has made the same mistakes recently. Too early to say this about Greenlee and Freeman.
  2. He hasn't recruited bad character guys in the last few years. McNeil was his recruit before he even started here. Dorsey was definitely a cancer that was quickly removed from the team but also very early in his tenure. Lofton had a short leash and was also quickly removed before he could do too much damage. Lynch in my mind was really the tipping point of the Pitino tenure -- such a waste on Lynch's part. But I do not see any of those issues in the last few classes.
  3. Spring recruiting has been a strength. It's a free for all with all the transfers now but he has done a pretty good job navigating the transfer market. Anti-Pitino posters will point to Brock Stull. But he has also found some pretty nice players in the spring -- Murphy, Springs, Carr, Stockman (underutilized) and Demir (undervalued). The jury is out on the three players he signed in the last two weeks.
  4. MN Kids.....nothing is debated more on this site. It's revisionist history to complain about Hurt. Any time any kid from MN signs elsewhere it is viewed as Pitino's fault. All MN kids grow up hoping to be Gophers - blah blah blah. At the time, Hurt was the second ranked recruit in MN with a stud younger brother. Nobody was on here criticizing the signing. Everybody adds a star to high school kids from MN. I understand the frustration with kids signing at Wisconsin, but the reasons for their relative success is a little more complex than purely signing MN talent.
Again....just talking about recruiting. I would have a different evaluation about some of the other responsibilities of a head coach.
 

LesBolstad said:
Pitino's recruiting reminds me of Brewster's for football- offer any/all highly rated players according the evaluation services, regardless of position or fit. Brewster would sign 4 five-star punters if they accepted. Pitino has put together some decent rosters, but also some of the worst in Gopher history.
The Minnesota misses are beyond maddening. His player development has been pretty decent- I'll give him a B+ in that department. Coaching-X's and O's and game management he's a D at best.
Click to expand...
I know I'm going to get raked over the coals for bringing this up in the wrong thread as some/many will see this as a potshot at Pitino, but please remind me of the recruits he has developed that didn't already come in as decent recruits? Also remind me of who came in as a lesser recruit and left as vastly improved? My point is that to me, his player development, has been one of his consistent issues.

I think his sticking with his 'starters' and not using his bench has played into those development issues that I see... ok, I will now duck, roll and then cover!
 

golfing18now said:
Talking purely about recruiting....I think he has done a pretty decent job actually. I think he has shown growth in that area.
  1. Initially he recruited like he coached at Florida and/or Louisville. He set his sites too high and ended up with the two bigs who ate up 8 years of scholarship. I really don't feel like he has made the same mistakes recently. Too early to say this about Greenlee and Freeman.
  2. He hasn't recruited bad character guys in the last few years. McNeil was his recruit before he even started here. Dorsey was definitely a cancer that was quickly removed from the team but also very early in his tenure. Lofton had a short leash and was also quickly removed before he could do too much damage. Lynch in my mind was really the tipping point of the Pitino tenure -- such a waste on Lynch's part. But I do not see any of those issues in the last few classes.
  3. Spring recruiting has been a strength. It's a free for all with all the transfers now but he has done a pretty good job navigating the transfer market. Anti-Pitino posters will point to Brock Stull. But he has also found some pretty nice players in the spring -- Murphy, Springs, Carr, Stockman (underutilized) and Demir (undervalued). The jury is out on the three players he signed in the last two weeks.
  4. MN Kids.....nothing is debated more on this site. It's revisionist history to complain about Hurt. Any time any kid from MN signs elsewhere it is viewed as Pitino's fault. All MN kids grow up hoping to be Gophers - blah blah blah. At the time, Hurt was the second ranked recruit in MN with a stud younger brother. Nobody was on here criticizing the signing. Everybody adds a star to high school kids from MN. I understand the frustration with kids signing at Wisconsin, but the reasons for their relative success is a little more complex than purely signing MN talent.
Again....just talking about recruiting. I would have a different evaluation about some of the other responsibilities of a head coach.
Click to expand...
This is a great take, excellent Post!! Truly summarizes precisely how I feel as well. Greenlee and Freeman IMHO, should have gotten more floor time in NC games this past year to see if they could play... then in conference play, they might have actually been able to help!?

I'm also of the belief that his recruiting has never been an issue, of course outside of the Minnesota recruits he's failed to land. Those misses to me can be negated by bringing in players from out of state that seem to be good recruits, and he's done that so I truly believe recruiting is absolutely NOT an issue.
 



DanvilleGopher said:
This is a great take, excellent Post!! Truly summarizes precisely how I feel as well. Greenlee and Freeman IMHO, should have gotten more floor time in NC games this past year to see if they could play... then in conference play, they might have actually been able to help!?

I'm also of the belief that his recruiting has never been an issue, of course outside of the Minnesota recruits he's failed to land. Those misses to me can be negated by bringing in players from out of state that seem to be good recruits, and he's done that so I truly believe recruiting is absolutely NOT an issue.
Click to expand...
He has to bring in players from elsewhere to fill the roster. One of the problems is that the kids from here are often more highly regarded than the guys he's been getting.
 
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golfing18now said:
Talking purely about recruiting....I think he has done a pretty decent job actually. I think he has shown growth in that area.
  1. Initially he recruited like he coached at Florida and/or Louisville. He set his sites too high and ended up with the two bigs who ate up 8 years of scholarship. I really don't feel like he has made the same mistakes recently. Too early to say this about Greenlee and Freeman.
  2. He hasn't recruited bad character guys in the last few years. McNeil was his recruit before he even started here. Dorsey was definitely a cancer that was quickly removed from the team but also very early in his tenure. Lofton had a short leash and was also quickly removed before he could do too much damage. Lynch in my mind was really the tipping point of the Pitino tenure -- such a waste on Lynch's part. But I do not see any of those issues in the last few classes.
  3. Spring recruiting has been a strength. It's a free for all with all the transfers now but he has done a pretty good job navigating the transfer market. Anti-Pitino posters will point to Brock Stull. But he has also found some pretty nice players in the spring -- Murphy, Springs, Carr, Stockman (underutilized) and Demir (undervalued). The jury is out on the three players he signed in the last two weeks.
  4. MN Kids.....nothing is debated more on this site. It's revisionist history to complain about Hurt. Any time any kid from MN signs elsewhere it is viewed as Pitino's fault. All MN kids grow up hoping to be Gophers - blah blah blah. At the time, Hurt was the second ranked recruit in MN with a stud younger brother. Nobody was on here criticizing the signing. Everybody adds a star to high school kids from MN. I understand the frustration with kids signing at Wisconsin, but the reasons for their relative success is a little more complex than purely signing MN talent.
Again....just talking about recruiting. I would have a different evaluation about some of the other responsibilities of a head coach.
Click to expand...
I think this goes alone with the "learning on the job" narrative. I agree, he originally thought he could recruit like they did at Louisville and Florida and he got caught reaching for questionable "talent". Those are some of the problems that plaque a new young HC that would have played out differently if he was at a MAC school (he wouldn't have shot so high and been less desperate to get "top talent"). Now he seems to have grown into the position and better understands what he needs to compete at this level. The U has long had a problem with the local high schools. Pitino didn't help with his original focus out east, but it is improving at Kendall and Dame states. They think Tre Holloman will be the key with his strong contacts within the MN Basketball. Get him and the tide will turn.

Outside of wanting to beat Wisconsin, I don't really see them as much competition for the top recruits. Bucky plays a slow, prodding and methodical style that is not attractive to very many top athletes. They do a good job of finding the right players that will fit into their system and they do it well. Bucky is not the one we target as a role model, Michigan State or Michigan are the type of teams we should target.
 

alchemy2u said:
I think this goes alone with the "learning on the job" narrative. I agree, he originally thought he could recruit like they did at Louisville and Florida and he got caught reaching for questionable "talent". Those are some of the problems that plaque a new young HC that would have played out differently if he was at a MAC school (he wouldn't have shot so high and been less desperate to get "top talent"). Now he seems to have grown into the position and better understands what he needs to compete at this level. The U has long had a problem with the local high schools. Pitino didn't help with his original focus out east, but it is improving at Kendall and Dame states. They think Tre Holloman will be the key with his strong contacts within the MN Basketball. Get him and the tide will turn.

Outside of wanting to beat Wisconsin, I don't really see them as much competition for the top recruits. Bucky plays a slow, prodding and methodical style that is not attractive to very many top athletes. They do a good job of finding the right players that will fit into their system and they do it well. Bucky is not the one we target as a role model, Michigan State or Michigan are the type of teams we should target.
Click to expand...

Pulley kid too
 

DanvilleGopher said:
I know I'm going to get raked over the coals for bringing this up in the wrong thread as some/many will see this as a potshot at Pitino, but please remind me of the recruits he has developed that didn't already come in as decent recruits? Also remind me of who came in as a lesser recruit and left as vastly improved? My point is that to me, his player development, has been one of his consistent issues.

I think his sticking with his 'starters' and not using his bench has played into those development issues that I see... ok, I will now duck, roll and then cover!
Click to expand...
There will be people who may criticize you even when it is not anti Pitino. My post was that he has recruited well, evaluated below average. The alarming thing is the absence of getting a group of high end guys early to say yes, way before they were highly ranked. Tracking those other programs they were able to get great players before anyone knew they were great.
 

Pitino is a decent enough recruiter as evidenced by those class rankings. I'd bet those rankings have been boosted by landing top-100 guys essentially every year (Dorsey, Coffey, Washington, Oturu, Ihnen, Mashburn).

Where Pitino has gotten in trouble is the lack of depth. Even their best teams have been extremely top-heavy. A lot of that is probably getting guys out of their depth for the current level of Division I (Hurt, Greelee, Konate) and a lot of is the inability to develop (even into rotation level) talent.
 

I recently rewatched the 1997 Gopher v. UCLA game to advance to the Final Four. It is striking how much more Clem used the bench than Pitino. I know the game has evolved some, Clem went 9+ deep, even in the tourney. That includes extended minutes for guys who were not nearly as good as the starters. Either Harris or Jackson needed to be on the floor (Archambault got a few minutes here and there), but other than that he gave a lot of minutes to the bench. Trevor Winter, Miles Tarver, Charles Thomas and Quincy Lewis all got serious run off the bench. At the time, I'd have preferred more minutes for Sam, Courtney, John Thomas and Eric Harris (Bobby got all the minutes he needed), but our depth probably wore teams down (not to mention the insane perimeter defense from Jackson and Harris).

Perhaps sacrificing a few minutes in the first half and few minutes in the second half to keep Carr fresh would make him even more effective/efficient?

Is it just me, or does it seem like a more of a widespread trend to pare down the rotations? I can't understand why Duke and others sit 4* and sometimes even 5* guys on bench every night when the starters look like they're dragging. They only come out when they're dog-tired or in foul trouble. Even though these are young men, it's got to take a toll over the course of a season.
 

The data average for the last 10 years elite 8 teams is to play 8 guys with the 8th guy getting 9.5 minutes per game. The best player or most valuable would be 35.4. Keep in mind that by the nature of winning so often and by larger margins they would have had even more minutes per game. In tourney games with a day off between games it is common to see guys pulling 38-40 per game, especially guards.
 

builtbadgers said:
The data average for the last 10 years elite 8 teams is to play 8 guys with the 8th guy getting 9.5 minutes per game. The best player or most valuable would be 35.4. Keep in mind that by the nature of winning so often and by larger margins they would have had even more minutes per game. In tourney games with a day off between games it is common to see guys pulling 38-40 per game, especially guards.
Click to expand...

Correct, looking at average minutes doesn't always tell the tale if you are "deep" or not. The NET rankings have also made guys keep players in longer. Trust 7 play 8
 

manderson1984 said:
Correct, looking at average minutes doesn't always tell the tale if you are "deep" or not. The NET rankings have also made guys keep players in longer. Trust 7 play 8
Click to expand...
NET is having no effect on the teams i follow. Hell, two tears ago UVA dramatically reduced margin of victory by actually playing managers. Of course that could be very different for non elite programs that need every morsel.
 

tikited said:
He has to bring in players from elsewhere to fill the roster. One of the problems is that the kids from here are often more highly regarded than the guys he's been getting.
Click to expand...

I don't think this is necessarily true if you eliminate the Jones/Hurt/Suggs level of recruit who go the blue blood route. Look no further than the rankings builtbadgers started this thread with.
 

tikited said:
He has to bring in players from elsewhere to fill the roster. One of the problems is that the kids from here are often more highly regarded than the guys he's been getting.
Click to expand...
Find guys that are better than those phony rankings, no matter where they are from.
 

golfing18now said:
I don't think this is necessarily true if you eliminate the Jones/Hurt/Suggs level of recruit who go the blue blood route. Look no further than the rankings builtbadgers started this thread with.
Click to expand...
Why eliminate those guys though? You wouldn't if Pitino got one or more of those types of players.
 


alchemy2u said:
I think this goes alone with the "learning on the job" narrative. I agree, he originally thought he could recruit like they did at Louisville and Florida and he got caught reaching for questionable "talent". Those are some of the problems that plaque a new young HC that would have played out differently if he was at a MAC school (he wouldn't have shot so high and been less desperate to get "top talent"). Now he seems to have grown into the position and better understands what he needs to compete at this level. The U has long had a problem with the local high schools. Pitino didn't help with his original focus out east, but it is improving at Kendall and Dame states. They think Tre Holloman will be the key with his strong contacts within the MN Basketball. Get him and the tide will turn.

Outside of wanting to beat Wisconsin, I don't really see them as much competition for the top recruits. Bucky plays a slow, prodding and methodical style that is not attractive to very many top athletes. They do a good job of finding the right players that will fit into their system and they do it well. Bucky is not the one we target as a role model, Michigan State or Michigan are the type of teams we should target.
Click to expand...
Did not have to be a learning on the job thing. He should have known that it was not even remotely possible to recruit that way here. Age has nothing to do with that.Besides, the classes brought in good enough talent to win. The experience at UL and Florida would have taught him when your selecting and when your out evaluating people, actually recruiting. He did great on beating people on evaluation with several guys but it is about recruiting to what you do well enough to win. I like the guys he got. I am praising his recruiting.
 


tikited said:
Why eliminate those guys though? You wouldn't if Pitino got one or more of those types of players.
Click to expand...

You absolutely have to recruit them. But as has been proven a number of times on this site, top 10-20ish level recruits that have offers from everywhere rarely stay home. Not just here.

Also landing one also doesn't necessarily translate to instant success or a run of local recruits staying home.
Didn't happen with Kris Humphries
Didn't happen with Joel Pryzbilla
Didn't happen with Royce White
Rick Rickert?

In my opinion, you find guys in the 50-150 range and then develop them. We have had success stories from MN in that range Oturu/Coffey and from elsewhere Mason/Murphy. Hopefully Mashburn (114) and Mitchell (137) can develop as well as some of the guys we "missed" like Carlson (88), Walton (97) and Crowl (211).
 

Yes, last season I thought he absolutely needed to play more guys more minutes.

However, You are all ignoring the eligibility issues beyond his control of all kinds, the injuries, the circumstances (mom dying etc, cell phone gate), the controversy his dad heaped on him. Just a lot of stuff beyond his control that is not...”well, every team goes through that” NO! Not to the degree of wtf he’s been dealing with. Obviously, Coffey’s decision completely blind sided him as another example.

NCAA...Springs gets hurt.
Matz and Murphy get hurt.
 

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