Realistic expectations

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gregbrady said:
Do you think Richard should have said no when Norwood called him? Should he have not signed a contract extension thrown in front of him by an interim AD that Pres. Kaler signed off on? Fortunately or unfortunately he is learning on the job & by the looks of things, he and the team are getting better, maybe not as fast as you'd like, but better. If they go 9-9 this year and make the tourney, that will be a big step and next year's expectations should and will be higher.


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+1
 

GibsonSG said:
Oh, so is that why Tubby had some very subpar recruiting classes at Kentucky too? Lack of training facilities?

Perhaps Tubby's recruiting has always been inconsistent because he just isn't that exceptionally good at it. I think the practice facility issue may have been a hindrance but it was also a giant scapegoat.

What will it take for you to stop constantly complaining about Pitino? Or for you to be positive/optimistic about the Gophers? What victory mark does he have to achieve? Honest question.
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Tubby had no opportunity to redeem himself, in terms of recruiting, here. Even if Kentucky was a fluke, he had a situation that wasn't going to let him succeed. The promise of new training facilities was made to him by an administration that was bipolar, at best, or a split personality that was intent on inflicting self-harm.

I want Richard Pitino to achieve his wildest dream and win a NCAA Tournament National Championship. Nothing less.

Don't accept mediocrity.

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Ewert86PC said:
Tubby had no opportunity to redeem himself, in terms of recruiting, here. Even if Kentucky was a fluke, he had a situation that wasn't going to let him succeed. The promise of new training facilities was made to him by an administration that was bipolar, at best, or a split personality that was intent on inflicting self-harm.

I want Richard Pitino to achieve his wildest dream and win a NCAA Tournament National Championship. Nothing less.

Don't accept mediocrity.

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Tubby brought in some decent recruits while he was. Rodney Williams, Ralph Samson, Joe Coleman, Andre Hollins. His issues weren't recruiting they were the fact he couldn't coach guys how to play a zone offense, inbound the ball, or make free throws.
 

Tubby mailed it in...

Tubby could recruit, but the bigger issue was player development once they got to campus.

Rodney Williams was a ridiculous athlete, but never did anything with his talent because he didn't care and Tubby didn't push him. Ralph Sampson III could've had a much better career. Tubby had Blake Hoffarber playing out of position at freaking point guard, then criticized him for it. Mo Walker didn't care about losing weight until Pitino threatened to take away his playing time, then he suddenly lost 60 pounds and became a viable Big 10 player. Devoe Joseph was going to be a star before being busted for some extra-curriculars that resulted in his transfer.

Andre Hollins was really the only guy I can think of who legitimately got better under Tubby. Damian Johnson improved a lot because he applied himself on defense.

Pitino has a group this year that legitimately can go 10-8 in the Big Ten. Win your home games and win at Rutgers and you're there. To put that in perspective, Tubby was never above .500 int he Big Ten -- he went 9-9 twice. It's been 11 years since the Gophers have been above .500 in league play. ELEVEN. So if they get there, what an accomplishment and foundation that would be for the future of the program.

My expectations when the year started were to avoid a play-in game for the Big Ten Tournament (top 8 finish) and get to the league tournament with little to no stress for locking up an NCAA Tournament bid. Again, win the rest of your home games and beat Rutgers, and you're dancing.

This year is far from over, and I'm almost more excited for next year with Fitzgerald, Isaiah Washington and Jamir Harris added to the mix.
 


The Administration has been wanting the upgraded facilities since they first brought them up. The problem was how long raising the money took.

Maybe they should have pushed harder, but this is Minnesota remember, a state full of taxpayers who are very reluctant to let their taxes go up for new stadiums and such. Teams have moved out of Minnesota because of the environment here.

And the state government also is stingy and doesn't like giving the U a lot of money, either.


There are studies out there that show that for every dollar tax payers give to the University of Minnesota, the state gets a much larger return on their investment, I think it was something like 3 or 4 dollars goes back towards the state of Minnesota for every dollar, in the way of new technologies, new jobs, etc..

Yet despite those studies and the benefits the people of Minnesota experience, the lawmakers at the Capital seem very reluctant to give the U any money. And when they do, they are very concerned about what the money is going for, and apparently new stadiums and new sports practice facilities are not high up on their list of priorities.


SO, a lot of the money has to be raised by the University via private donors. If that money doesn't come in fast enough, then the Administration becomes forced to delay and wait until it comes in before they can build these facilities that cost close to or over 100 million dollars.

Do you understand this?



I mean, maybe the Administration is partly to blame, sure, but a lot of the blame has to rest on the environment and culture here in Minnesota.

This is part of what PJF is talking about when he talks about changing the culture here at Minnesota.


Soo many other options for people, we have a small stadium and still can't fill it, Minnesotans have gotten used to having low expectations when it comes to Gopher football and Gopher basketball, and there are ALOT of Minnesotans who could care less about the Gophers, and others who almost enjoy poking fun of them, and yes, many of those will jump on the bandwagon, but only AFTER the team has won the big games and enough of them to get high into the rankings.


And there are many here in Minnesota who take pride in the fact that we do not spend tons of money on football and basketball, thinking that their are programs filled up with neaderthals and hoodlums.


Tell me the last time a University of Minnesota swimmer or gymnast or golfer or trackster or tennis player was enmeshed in some sort of sex scandal?? Heck, you could add baseball players and Wrestlers to that list, too.

Now granted, there are 85 football players on scholarship involved with the football program, many more than any of those other sports individually, but my point is still valid. Most cheating scandals involve revenue sports only, as well. Now there are exceptions of course, but for the money needed by revenue sports and for the problems that more often come along with it, and football is also one of the more violent sports as well, the # of parents pushing their boys into the sport has been going down steadily over the years. Combine all of that with our fb program's inability to win enough to attract the marginal fans out there, and well, is it really that surprising that Minnesotans in general are not big time Gopher football backers?


And that is why someone like PJF was needed. And it is why diehard Gopher fans like the ones here at GH, need to drink the Kool-Aid and give PJF their full support, and hope that he can indeed help to "change the culture".

And Pitino seems to like PJF, and is young like him, and could do a lot towards helping to "change the culture" as well, in the other big revenue sport here at Minnesota. But that is only if he's not fired first. That will only happen if we give him enough time to get the improved talent here, and to figure out how to win those close games. Both are things I am very confident he will do with greater and greater frequency as the years progress.


If we fire him, and have to start all over, then who the heck is going to want to come here and coach? and if we do find someone, how sure can we be that he'll step right in and start winning right away?
 

It's possible to like Pitino, think he's doing a good job, and should not be summarily fired for not winning the national championship, and still think Tubby did a pretty good job. I was disappointed about how it ended with Tubby. I think his assistants were terrible, and his recruiting fell off big time. But he gave us some big wins, and some fun moments. I for one still love the dude.
 

KillmeNow said:
The Administration has been wanting the upgraded facilities since they first brought them up. The problem was how long raising the money took.

Maybe they should have pushed harder, but this is Minnesota remember, a state full of taxpayers who are very reluctant to let their taxes go up for new stadiums and such. Teams have moved out of Minnesota because of the environment here.

And the state government also is stingy and doesn't like giving the U a lot of money, either.


There are studies out there that show that for every dollar tax payers give to the University of Minnesota, the state gets a much larger return on their investment, I think it was something like 3 or 4 dollars goes back towards the state of Minnesota for every dollar, in the way of new technologies, new jobs, etc..

Yet despite those studies and the benefits the people of Minnesota experience, the lawmakers at the Capital seem very reluctant to give the U any money. And when they do, they are very concerned about what the money is going for, and apparently new stadiums and new sports practice facilities are not high up on their list of priorities.


SO, a lot of the money has to be raised by the University via private donors. If that money doesn't come in fast enough, then the Administration becomes forced to delay and wait until it comes in before they can build these facilities that cost close to or over 100 million dollars.

Do you understand this?



I mean, maybe the Administration is partly to blame, sure, but a lot of the blame has to rest on the environment and culture here in Minnesota.

This is part of what PJF is talking about when he talks about changing the culture here at Minnesota.


Soo many other options for people, we have a small stadium and still can't fill it, Minnesotans have gotten used to having low expectations when it comes to Gopher football and Gopher basketball, and there are ALOT of Minnesotans who could care less about the Gophers, and others who almost enjoy poking fun of them, and yes, many of those will jump on the bandwagon, but only AFTER the team has won the big games and enough of them to get high into the rankings.


And there are many here in Minnesota who take pride in the fact that we do not spend tons of money on football and basketball, thinking that their are programs filled up with neaderthals and hoodlums.


Tell me the last time a University of Minnesota swimmer or gymnast or golfer or trackster or tennis player was enmeshed in some sort of sex scandal?? Heck, you could add baseball players and Wrestlers to that list, too.

Now granted, there are 85 football players on scholarship involved with the football program, many more than any of those other sports individually, but my point is still valid. Most cheating scandals involve revenue sports only, as well. Now there are exceptions of course, but for the money needed by revenue sports and for the problems that more often come along with it, and football is also one of the more violent sports as well, the # of parents pushing their boys into the sport has been going down steadily over the years. Combine all of that with our fb program's inability to win enough to attract the marginal fans out there, and well, is it really that surprising that Minnesotans in general are not big time Gopher football backers?


And that is why someone like PJF was needed. And it is why diehard Gopher fans like the ones here at GH, need to drink the Kool-Aid and give PJF their full support, and hope that he can indeed help to "change the culture".

And Pitino seems to like PJF, and is young like him, and could do a lot towards helping to "change the culture" as well, in the other big revenue sport here at Minnesota. But that is only if he's not fired first. That will only happen if we give him enough time to get the improved talent here, and to figure out how to win those close games. Both are things I am very confident he will do with greater and greater frequency as the years progress.


If we fire him, and have to start all over, then who the heck is going to want to come here and coach? and if we do find someone, how sure can we be that he'll step right in and start winning right away?
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After the Xanax ring, I wouldn't be so sure about the wrestling program.

Why did it take five years to get a fundraising organization started for the AV? It was announced when Tubby was hired and no fundraising committee was established until after he was fired. That is an internal University debacle and has no bearing from the state legislature. Why did there have to be an EEOC investigation regarding moving the track and field teams to the St. Paul campus? It delayed the AV.

Do you realize that Kim Hewitt of the EOAA was targeting the Football team? That is not the behavior of a fair minded administrator. Why has it been so hush hush about her departure in light of the results of the appeal of the EOAA judgement? Because it was a biased EOAA investigation and makes the U administration look bad.

You are shoving too much off on to the easy villain, the State Legislature. The fact of the matter is the start of the process to begin fundraising for the AV was deliberately delayed and it negatively impact a revenue sport, the men's basketball program.

No, for all the faults and shortcomings of the basketball program, the administration has, in part, acted to harm them. This magnified the flaws of the coaches hired to run it.

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jmag21 said:
It's possible to like Pitino, think he's doing a good job, and should not be summarily fired for not winning the national championship, and still think Tubby did a pretty good job. I was disappointed about how it ended with Tubby. I think his assistants were terrible, and his recruiting fell off big time. But he gave us some big wins, and some fun moments. I for one still love the dude.
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We'll never know where his recruiting would have gone if the 2009-2010 team had not been nuked by off-court problems. They easily could have been a Sweet 16 team. What we do know is that at some point after that, he seemed to give up on the recruiting a bit. His last two classes were awful and it was hard to see how he was going to recover. I hold no ill will towards him, but it was very obvious that a #11 seed and a single NCAA win was probably going to be the peak.
 



I liked Tubby, but he lost the fire, likely for a host of reasons not all of them his fault. Bottom line, everyone knew he had no shot with the big 3 in 2014 and that was the end.
 

Ewert86PC said:
At what level do you consider him a failure as a coach in conference games? 20%? 40%? 31.4651%? The conference record affects recruiting. What player wants to go to a school where they can say "We made the NCAA tournament every year and always won 15 to 18 games a season?" No one, because they takedown reply will always be "yeah, but you always lost more conference games than you won." and more than likely they will add just how quickly your team got washed out of the tournament.

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Was simply stating that your comments about him having a BT winning percentage below .300 is wrong. Why do you keep stating things that are incorrect.
 

Moving on from Tubby was the right thing at the time. Teague just over played his ability in thinking who they could hire and over looking great coaches he could have had. He ended up getting somewhat fortunate to get Richard Pitino his 6th choice.
 

I like what I see with patino, he's learning how to adapt and recover when issues come up. The team/character building this summer really brought this team together ( along with the improved talent) his dad has endured a bunch of scandals and still runs a great program. Learn from your mistakes and don't repeat them. Recruit better, have good assistants (I think Conroy was a great hire) team build and they will come.
 



Tubby needed a reset, he was coasting.

Pitino is not a bad hire. He is cutting his chops against some pretty good coaches in the B1G so don't be surprised when he gets out coached by an Izzo or a Crean. He has proven that his coaching has improved his teams from the start of the year to the end. Even last year! If he pulls off a 10-8 record in conference and goes to the dance he will have a great shot at getting Otero, Race, Thomas, Jones(there's a chance) and Gabe for his next recruiting class. Hopefully he gets Mr. Hurt the next year. With that kind of talent we would be predicted to do well in the B1G for the first time in years starting next year and going forward.

New facilities just helps put icing on the cake.
 

I put Crean near the bottom of Big 10 coaches. Great recruiter, terrible development, terrible defense. This is collectively the weakest set of coaches in the conference in a really long time. I would take PITINO over all but IZZO, Gard, Collins, Belien, Painter and Turgeon. To break into that group he has to compete for the top of the conference. Collins gets a pass on that criteria because he coaches at a school where most Big 10 players simply would not be able to get into. He will always play with the lowest level of talent in the conference.
 

builtbadgers said:
I put Crean near the bottom of Big 10 coaches. Great recruiter, terrible development, terrible defense. This is collectively the weakest set of coaches in the conference in a really long time. I would take PITINO over all but IZZO, Gard, Collins, Belien, Painter and Turgeon. To break into that group he has to compete for the top of the conference. Collins gets a pass on that criteria because he coaches at a school where most Big 10 players simply would not be able to get into. He will always play with the lowest level of talent in the conference.
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Based on what? And what is a really long time.

Big 10 Coaching turnover isn't very rampant at the top so if you don't like the "newer coaches" you're talking about Miles, McCaffery, Chambers, and Pikiell all being worse than their predecessors of Sadler, Lickliter, DeChellis, and Jordan.

And other than the fact that most of them are under 5 years I'm unsure how you could say you wanted their predecessor over the new coach????
 

Good point Winasota!

Were not going back to the era of Bobby, Judd, The Lou do, and Dutcher. Longstanding coaches in D1 basketball are freaking unicorns!
 

builtbadgers said:
I put Crean near the bottom of Big 10 coaches. Great recruiter, terrible development, terrible defense. This is collectively the weakest set of coaches in the conference in a really long time. I would take PITINO over all but IZZO, Gard, Collins, Belien, Painter and Turgeon. To break into that group he has to compete for the top of the conference. Collins gets a pass on that criteria because he coaches at a school where most Big 10 players simply would not be able to get into. He will always play with the lowest level of talent in the conference.
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Look at the coaches you didn’t name and what schools they work for. Penn State, Nebraska, and Rutgers were all added with the football-driven expansion. These 3 have subpar basketball programs spanning decades with very limited tournament success or appearances even. If they were once great, it was a long, long time ago. They, like Minnesota, are all trying to find their program-elevating “Bo Ryan.”

McCaffery’s record the last 4 years looks pretty similar to the overall record of Dr. Tom Davis. Davis’s teams lost more often than not in the NCAA second round. Indiana and Illinois may have taken a step or two backwards but Wisconsin and Ohio State are better off than they were 20 years ago. If Matta has a losing conference record this year, it will be the first time in his head coaching career. Wisconsin was hot garbage for nearly 40 years before the late 90's.

I think recruiting, not coaching, has been the downfall of the Big Ten in general. Seems like every year the ACC, Big East, and SEC grab a higher percentage of Top 100 basketball recruits and land more McD’s All-Americans. Big Ten teams make it to the final four but then can’t close the deal when they run into teams with more NBA talent.

But then again…I’ve stuck with the Gophers for a long time now. So what do I really know? :D
 

Fran's record pales in comparison to Dr. Tom. Illinois has not taken a step back from Weber or Self, they have fallen miles behind.
 


GophersInIowa said:
Oops
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builtbadgers said:
Fran's record pales in comparison to Dr. Tom.
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Did you even bother to look anything up? I'm guessing you didn't.

Tom Davis inherited a team from Raveling, the previous coach, that went 20-12 / 10-8 in Big Ten play.
McCaffery inherited a team from Lickliter that went 10-22 / 4-14 in Big Ten play.

Davis's most successful year was that first year he took over with Raveling's players - a gaudy 30-5 record. McCaffery had a rebuilding project with Lickliter's trainwreck and went 11-20.

If we remove that first season for each coach:

Tom Davis: 239-135 overall (.639) / 111-101 Big Ten (.523)
Fran McCaffery: 107-66 overall (.618) / 50-40 Big Ten (.555)

Tell me again how this "pales in comparison?"
 

builtbadgers said:
I put Crean near the bottom of Big 10 coaches. Great recruiter, terrible development, terrible defense. This is collectively the weakest set of coaches in the conference in a really long time. I would take PITINO over all but IZZO, Gard, Collins, Belien, Painter and Turgeon. To break into that group he has to compete for the top of the conference. Collins gets a pass on that criteria because he coaches at a school where most Big 10 players simply would not be able to get into. He will always play with the lowest level of talent in the conference.
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What the hell are you talking about? Northwestern has among the most talent in the conference, right now. Smart guys can't be talented basketball players, right? What an absolutely asinine take.
 

Look at where their recruits through the roster were ranked. AD's everywhere consider Collins a bright young potential star. His next job will not be for a lower tier power 5 job. My point overall was there were more great coaches in the BIG 10 and it was a better conference 15-20 years ago then right now. Plus you now get games against Rutgers and Nebraska that those coaches could pad their numbers against. Coaches in the top 15 are limited to IZZO. the BIG 10 lost Ryan (best winning % in Big 10 history)and Self. The ACC has at 5 who anyone would have in their top 15 and will pull the best of the young coaches into those jobs when they come open after retirements or firings.
 

builtbadgers said:
Look at where their recruits through the roster were ranked.
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Recruiting rankings are not talent. Furthermore, their 2014 class, the one forming the bulk of their rotation (and containing their two best players, Law and McIntosh) was rated #7 in the Big Ten. So your poorly formed argument isn't even accurate. I reiterate, it's foolish to say that Northwestern "will always play with the lowest level of talent in the conference," considering that they don't right now and haven't since the expansion to 14 teams. What's more indicative of talent, recruiting rankings or their 4th-place standing in the conference?
 

I think we still make the tournament. This team is way too talented to not...
 



My 8-10 prediction would certainly now feel like a huge letdown. I remember when some people were arguing that there weren't 6 wins on the schedule this year. Besides the Purdue game, everything has pretty closely gone as expected. Hopefully the guys can keep pulling out the close ones and blow the "realistic expectations" out of the water. Go Gophers!
 

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