***OFFICIAL MINNESOTA AT MARYLAND IN-GAME THREAD!!!***

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leib0039 said:
Sutherlin has played 556 min, TT 151. I'd hope Sutherlin has better totals ha. I understand it's tough when stats say you are wrong so you go "well I watched he's better" sure, just go with that. At the end if the day it's fairly pointless to argue about these 2. Neither is good at the moment and neither is making a huge difference. My point is just I see no reason to play a SR over a fr when your team isn't good and the players are close in impact.
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Pointless to argue because your stats were phony.
 

bc2211 said:
I don’t want to believe it because I think TT is a better play and program builder (the crowd loves him)… But sutherlin’s win share per 40 min (0.093) is way better than Curry (0.069), Stephens (0.076), and Lowe (0.057). Not great overall, but still better. TT is 0.080 btw.

also it’s weird we are comparing a PF/C to a Sf/SG in terms of defense. Different roles altogether. Different strengths.
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Yes, tough to compare the different positions. But one guy played defense hard and aggressive and one did not. Therein lies the answer to the big difference in playing time.
 

leib0039 said:
Player A Per 40 min: 13p 6.6r 1.4s 0.6b eFG% 50%, 9.8% total rebound rate
Player B Per 40 min: 14.9p 9r 1.2s 2.4b eFG% 56.7% 10.9% total rebound rate

Not to spoil the surprise but Player B figures to be here for 3 more years while Player A will be here 3 more weeks....So yah I did check the numbers, Still makes no sense for a team in 13th in the league in a game they are being ravaged inside.
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How did you come up with these? TT has played 152 minutes and scored 37 points, which is .243 pts. per minute x 40 minutes is 9.73 pts per game. Sean, (I'm assuming is Player B) has played 556 and scored 184, which 13.24 pts per game.
By my calculations it should be
TT: 9.73 pts, 5.7 Reb, .8 Steals, 1.6 blocks, 1.8 TO, 1.3 Asst and 6 fouls (which since you only are allowed 5, his numbers wouldn't be this good as he would have to sit)
SS: 13.24 pts, 6.6 Reb, 1.4 Steals, .6 blocks, 2.2 TO, 1.8 Asst. and 3.5 fouls
 

leib0039 said:
Sutherlin has played 556 min, TT 151. I'd hope Sutherlin has better totals ha. I understand it's tough when stats say you are wrong so you go "well I watched he's better" sure, just go with that. At the end if the day it's fairly pointless to argue about these 2. Neither is good at the moment and neither is making a huge difference. My point is just I see no reason to play a SR over a fr when your team isn't good and the players are close in impact.
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I don't believe they are equal. Sutherlin is willing to guard any position and battle for position down low. TT has a tough time guarding anyone, thus the switch to zone when he's in the game.

If you want to bring in any decent one year transfers, you might want to play the guys you brought in otherwise who would want to come and play here with 1 year remaining if they know the coach is going to play FR, over you.
 

Dakota2 said:
Yes, tough to compare the different positions. But one guy played defense hard and aggressive and one did not. Therein lies the answer to the big difference in playing time.
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One guy has years more experience. Therein lies the answer. Experience.
 


cjbfbp said:
What I'm saying is that is a discriminatory rule. Players who played that year are given 5 years of eligibility (if they want them) while players who didn't because of injury or something similar get only four. I believe a rule like that is challengeable and that challenge could win.

People make rules (often in haste). Those rules are frequently challenged, sometimes successfully and amended; sometimes they're just interpreted on a case by case basis. This is how some lawyers make a very good living.

Now, if someone can point me to evidence showing where this rule has been challenged and that challenge lost, maybe I'll close my mind on the subject.
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The rule was made before anyone knew how things were going to work out for the 2020-21 athletic year. No one knew for sure if there would be any season, let alone a partial season, let alone a full season.

They ended up getting a mostly full season and even a championship out of it, though certainly not a normal year by any means. Some could argue that that fact alone means that this rule should not have stayed in place, but it was far easier to keep it than rescind it. People could've said that if they knew they'd lose a year for this "asterisk" season, then they would've taken their redshirt year, and so on.

I think your reasoning is valid, but I think they would deny Sutherlin's challenge. There probably are few players who just happened to (need to) sit out on the year that everyone else got to play "for free". So maybe they could band together and try to plead their case in public. You never know.
 

The crazier thing is that, technically Curry could come back next year, if he really wanted to. I don't think he plans to though.
 


Gophers_4life said:
The crazier thing is that, technically Curry could come back next year, if he really wanted to. I don't think he plans to though.
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Yeah, seems like he is ready to get on with life after basketball (at least as a player). But it is crazy to think that he would technically have one more year available.

Just glad he has been able to play a lot over these final few seasons after such a rough go of things early in his career with all the injuries.
 



BarnBurner said:
Wins don’t matter this season.
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I disappear for a week to get my dad into long term care after his recent hospitalization from a nasty fall and apparently time has stood still. Johnson is trying to win and be competitive with the roster that he has. He will put the squad out there that will help them achieve those goals.

Johnson has expectations for his players to earn playing time and sticks to it. He is not going to throw his system/culture out the window to just give playing time to a skinny big who doesn't give the team the physical play that this team needs.

IF he started granting minutes to players who do not meet expectations, he would lose the team, they would be losing by 40+ every game, and the fans would be railing on him for not trying to win.

This year was about setting a foundation for the future based on a culture of defense and grittiness. The team has far exceeded my expectations based on what I knew of the players. Throwing this culture out the window midway through the season to play a player who is not ready would show a coach in panic.

Leadership is about consistency and confidence. You want the Battles on the team and recruits to see a stable coach and have confidence in what they are building. Once a team starts questioning the coach, things go down hill in a hurry and this can have long-lasting impacts.
 

cjbfbp said:
Fox was injured very shortly after he committed and that was early. Ihnen was injured much later but there was still enough time to get someone better than Ogele.
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Ogele was the last recruit Johnson plucked from the portal sometime around August 1 or so. All of the bigs Johnson had sought earlier said no. There were no high quality players left for the taking.

Johnson needed some roster filler by this time and took a chance on Ogele as a muscular player who might be able to add something. He has not.
 

ecoperson said:
I disappear for a week to get my dad into long term care after his recent hospitalization from a nasty fall and apparently time has stood still. Johnson is trying to win and be competitive with the roster that he has. He will put the squad out there that will help them achieve those goals.

Johnson has expectations for his players to earn playing time and sticks to it. He is not going to throw his system/culture out the window to just give playing time to a skinny big who doesn't give the team the physical play that this team needs.

IF he started granting minutes to players who do not meet expectations, he would lose the team, they would be losing by 40+ every game, and the fans would be railing on him for not trying to win.

This year was about setting a foundation for the future based on a culture of defense and grittiness. The team has far exceeded my expectations based on what I knew of the players. Throwing this culture out the window midway through the season to play a player who is not ready would show a coach in panic.

Leadership is about consistency and confidence. You want the Battles on the team and recruits to see a stable coach and have confidence in what they are building. Once a team starts questioning the coach, things go down hill in a hurry and this can have long-lasting impacts.
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Well said but you are wasting your time trying to reason with BB.
 




Dakota2 said:
Maybe time wasn't the only factor. Is it possible, in the time available, nobody better than Ogele wanted to play at Minnesota?

Under the circumstances we faced, I think he did a really good job getting Willis and Battle. And he did his homework in offering Loewe, Stephens, and Sutherlin. They all played much better in the Big Ten than their histories would suggest.
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Even at the time, I thought Willis, Battle, Stephens, Loewe, and Sutherlin were very appropriate recruits and I was impressed with how quickly he got them. After seeing them for a year, my conclusion is that they were even better as a group than I expected them to be. Absolutely no criticisms there.

That doesn't change the fact that Ben really stumbled on the front court recruiting. I know this seems to be the age of black or white/all-or-nothing thinking (really puzzling to me actually - I don't think it was always this bad) but it's quite possible and reasonable to praise someone for his performance on one job while criticizing him for his performance on another job.
 


Gophers_4life said:
I think your reasoning is valid, but I think they would deny Sutherlin's challenge. There probably are few players who just happened to (need to) sit out on the year that everyone else got to play "for free". So maybe they could band together and try to plead their case in public. You never know.
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Yes, I definitely think a challenge could fail but I think there is a basis to appeal that rule and anything can happen in that case.
 

cjbfbp said:
Even at the time, I thought Willis, Battle, Stephens, Loewe, and Sutherlin were very appropriate recruits and I was impressed with how quickly he got them. After seeing them for a year, my conclusion is that they were even better than I expected them to be. Absolutely no criticisms there.

That doesn't change the fact that Ben really stumbled on the front court recruiting. I know this seems to be the age of black or white/all-or-nothing thinking (really puzzling to me actually - I don't think it was always this bad) but it's quite possible and reasonable to praise someone for his performance on one job while criticizing him for his performance on another job.
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The part that none of us can answer is what kind of pool did he have to pick from after Fox and Ihnen went down? It doesn't work to just look at who was in the portal because just being in the portal doesn't mean they would have had any interest in coming here or that we would have wanted them.

Johnson clearly didn't want to bring in many multi year guys so that limits a chunk of the pool. Then you have to have guys that want to come here so that would take out a bunch more. Chances are there were not a ton of big men in the portal that fit what Johnson wanted AND wanted to play in Minnesota.

Based on what we have seen from the other guys, this team with a healthy Fox and Ihnen could have been pretty dang good. Probably not top of the conference good but for sure middle of the pack and likely good enough to make the tournament (assuming Fox could have provided a defensive presence down low that this team has been sorely lacking).
 

so much of this comes down to black-and-white thinking.

life is more complicated than that.

you can believe things that may seem contradictory.

I think Ben Johnson is going to be a very good coach. I like what he is trying to do with this team.

But, I also think Ben Johnson is still learning and has made mistakes. I think he clearly mis-calculated what was available in the transfer portal vs who he could actually get to commit to MN.

I think there were players who simply did not want to spend a final year playing for a rebuilding program with a 1st-year coach. and in the end, I think Johnson had to take what he could get, because he had to have some bodies.

Now, that does NOT mean that Johnson is a bad coach or is doomed to fail.

It means he is - by basketball standards - a young coach who is learning on the job. I think he will take the experience and learn from it in dealing with potential portal prospects this year.

and - closing thought - If Pitino had stayed, or if all of last year's players had returned, how many minutes would TT have gotten this year? I put the number at somewhere around.......zero.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Well said but you are wasting your time trying to reason with BB.
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I should just cut and paste to match the tired drum beats of the slow burn. It's all about the wins, right?
 

short ornery norwegian said:
But, I also think Ben Johnson is still learning and has made mistakes. I think he clearly mis-calculated what was available in the transfer portal vs who he could actually get to commit to MN.

I think there were players who simply did not want to spend a final year playing for a rebuilding program with a 1st-year coach. and in the end, I think Johnson had to take what he could get, because he had to have some bodies.
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I think Johnson may have miscalculated some but I actually think it was from a different angle. I don't know that he really believed the current roster was going to be as competitive as it proved to be after the injuries.

Given the short timeframe from when he was hired to the start of the season my read on it was that he targeted some guys to build around like Battle and Fox (guessing there were others he didn't get) and then filled in around them with 1 year guys in order to leave a lot of flexibility for the 22-23 class.

My feeling is that he didn't just want to add bodies, especially if those players had more than 1 year left.
 

ecoperson said:
I should just cut and paste to match the tired drum beats of the slow burn. It's all about the wins, right?
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They are all that matter, it's why they play that game in early April apparently.... :)
 



ecoperson said:
I should just cut and paste to match the tired drum beats of the slow burn. It's all about the wins, right?
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Yes, it is. Otherwise why would TT not play and Ogele play? CBJ is trying to win games!!!!

Why did CBJ get so upset at the refs the other night? That’s right Scooby, he is coaching to WIN games.
 


MNVCGUY said:
I think Johnson may have miscalculated some but I actually think it was from a different angle. I don't know that he really believed the current roster was going to be as competitive as it proved to be after the injuries.

Given the short timeframe from when he was hired to the start of the season my read on it was that he targeted some guys to build around like Battle and Fox (guessing there were others he didn't get) and then filled in around them with 1 year guys in order to leave a lot of flexibility for the 22-23 class.

My feeling is that he didn't just want to add bodies, especially if those players had more than 1 year left.
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Excuses. Over and over. Then over again.
Professional.
 

BarnBurner said:
Yes, it is. Otherwise why would TT not play and Ogele play? CBJ is trying to win games!!!!

Why did CBJ get so upset at the refs the other night? That’s right Scooby, he is coaching to WIN games.
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You should check the minutes and see who plays more.
 

swanyj said:
Totally agree. Johnsons logic along with many on this board does not make any sense. Playing TT and Thiam 10-15 minutes per game regardless should have been a priority so they can gain experience playing against Big Ten competition. That can not be accomplished through practice. Having that experience was critical because next year the incoming freshman, however talented they are supposed to be, will be deer in the headlights when it comes to playing in the Big Ten. They need people that have experience and other than Battle, they will have none thanks to Johnson.

It made no sense to play CD or Ogele other than sporadic minutes. TT should have gotten all the minutes last night even if it would have led to poor defense as some people suggest ...and I totally disagree. He would adapt and learn and offer some resistance at the rim. AND possibly get a rebound. I know he missed a couple but that is all you a-holes focus on. He needs to be in there more than 3 minutes and allow him to get that experience so he understands the competition he is up against and adapt. He is a talented player as has been said by many (Bardo mentioned it last night) but he needs time to develop and that experience is critical.
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Coaches view things differently...Johnson quotes:
Building his alma mater from the ground up keeps the rookie coach's thoughts churning, especially since the Gophers have had only three winning Big Ten seasons in the past 20 years.

“I really believe in what we're going to stand for and what we are. You don't want to stray from that even during times of adversity.”
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Ben Johnson
"You got to stick to your guns and stay the course," Johnson says. "Get through the process. Once you do, then that's when you can really win."
So, the seniors don't have time to learn the process in this situation. As a coach you overlook their shortcomings, appreciate their contributions because without them you wouldn't have spots to build on next year. You need their support of the program going forward...so they play.

TT on the other hand is held to a higher standard. If he doesn't do what he's asked, he sits even in times of adversity. Playing time is a privilege. "Stick to your guns and stay the course. Get through the process. Once you do that's when you can really win."

I don't know but somebody mentioned Crowl didn't play last year. Wi develops players and teams and has success. Hopefully, Ben has the same results.

And Thiam is in over his head.
 
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60's Guy said:
Coaches view things differently...Johnson quotes:
Building his alma mater from the ground up keeps the rookie coach's thoughts churning, especially since the Gophers have had only three winning Big Ten seasons in the past 20 years.


Ben Johnson
"You got to stick to your guns and stay the course," Johnson says. "Get through the process. Once you do, then that's when you can really win."
So, the seniors don't have time to learn the process in this situation. As a coach you overlook their shortcomings, appreciate their contributions because without them you wouldn't have spots to build on next year. You need their support of the program going forward...so they play.

TT on the other hand is held to a higher standard. If he doesn't do what he's asked, he sits even in times of adversity. Playing time is a privilege. "Stick to your guns and stay the course. Get through the process. Once you do that's when you can really win."

I don't know but somebody mentioned Crowl didn't play last year. Wi develops players and teams and has success. Hopefully, Ben has the same results.

And Thiam is in over his head.
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No short cuts. No excuses. Stick to the plan of building a winning foundation and culture. Never wave the white flag and always keep trying to compete.
 


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