***OFFICIAL MICHIGAN ST AT MINNESOTA, WILLIE JERSEY RETIREMENT DAY IN-GAME THREAD!!!***

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manderson1984 said:
That's not lack of effort, that's immaturity. Something that is easily fixed. MSU's elders showed and taught them a lesson.
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It's a distinction without a difference. We have a grad transfer, a third year sophomore, a fourth year junior (I think-Willis), and two true sophomores in the starting lineup. They've all been playing basketball since they were around six years old. It's not a young team and they didn't hustle back.
 

jamiche said:
It's a distinction without a difference. We have a grad transfer, a third year sophomore, a fourth year junior (I think-Willis), and two true sophomores in the starting lineup. They've all been playing basketball since they were around six years old. It's not a young team and they didn't hustle back.
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Agreed on the distinction part and don't think it's acceptable whatsoever. Immaturity isn't always with age. It was a good lesson from a quality team that's been there before. MSU knew how to shut off momentum.
 

Roland Brooks said:
Who has great depth? Especially middle of the pack power 5 schools.
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Correct. Nobody is getting any significant contributions this year from their 11th, 12th, and 13th scholarship players (Greenlee/Freeman/Rudrud). You could argue it would be nice to get something more from their 9th and 10th options (Hurt/Ihnen). Obviously Curry would have been top 8 somewhere.

It is a problem when your 11th, 12th, and 13th options remain your 11th, 12th, and 13th options and never develop. We have had a couple of those (Diedhiou) but generally those players find themselves on different teams (Harris) or gasp, improve.
 
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Roland Brooks said:
Who has great depth? Especially middle of the pack power 5 schools.
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The only strike I have against Pitino this year is his lack of bench production. Does that relate to not good enough recruiting or has he just not worked his bench into the rotation enough? I don't know.
I still remain confident that Williams and Ihnen will become good Big Ten players as will Omersa who I also really like for the energy and team spirit factor he offers.
 


golfing18now said:
Correct. Nobody is getting any significant contributions this year from their 11th, 12th, and 13th scholarship players (Greenlee/Freeman/Rudrud). You could argue it would be nice to get something more from their 9th and 10th options (Hurt/Ihnen). Obviously Curry would have been top 8 somewhere.
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And Coffey would have started in place of Willis in an ideal world....
 

Can't imagine how frustrated Gabe must get to shoot so poorly. Pitino has described him as the ultimate gym rat, bet he puts up tens of thousands of 3 pointers in the offseason and spends more gym time than anyone. Then to see Carr and Oturu blossom while he regresses, has to be very, very frustrating for him.
 


golfing18now said:
Correct. Nobody is getting any significant contributions this year from their 11th, 12th, and 13th scholarship players (Greenlee/Freeman/Rudrud). You could argue it would be nice to get something more from their 9th and 10th options (Hurt/Ihnen). Obviously Curry would have been top 8 somewhere.
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That's not really the situation, is it? One could argue that the Gophers don't get particularly reliable contributions beyond their top 2 (maybe 3 - Demir is fairly consistent although not extremely productive). They get negligible offense from the bench.

An interesting contrast is Iowa where McCaffrey has only 8 healthy scholarship players. The last two are only good enough to provide breathers (and fouls) but the other 6 all provide either very good or at least fairly solid contributions.
 



Now that I want it I can't find it but there was a stat out there than we get a higher % of our scoring from our starters than all but like 5 teams in the NCAA's this year. Our top bench guy is Tre at 3.5 points per game, I would think you have to look long and hard to find a team who's top bench guy is under that. Now, Carr/Oturu being very good are some of that but if anyone thinks our bench is equal to most of the other P5 schools, you are VERY wrong. That has 100% been a big problem i have had with Pitino throughout, we never have a bench. Its 1-4 guys and then just hope. Filling out a roster has been a big big stain on Pitino. We end up with way way too many Diedhou/Hurt types that you cant even play.
 

cjbfbp said:
That's not really the situation, is it? One could argue that the Gophers don't get particularly reliable contributions beyond their top 2 (maybe 3 - Demir is fairly consistent although not extremely productive). They get negligible offense from the bench.

An interesting contrast is Iowa where McCaffrey has only 8 healthy scholarship players. The last two are only good enough to provide breathers (and fouls) but the other 6 all provide either very good or at least fairly solid contributions.
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(Sorry about the formatting.....not sure how to fix that)

How about a comparison......our next opponent Illinois production against Minnesota production.

Ayo Dosunmu G (PPG -- 16.2) (RPG -- 4.3) (APG -- 3.5) soph
Kofi Cockburn C (PPG -- 14.5) (RPG -- 9.4) (APG -- 0.7) freshman
Andres Felix G (PPG -- 10.6) (RPG -- 4.7) (APG -- 3.1) senior
Trent Frazier G (PPG -- 9.9) (RPG -- 2.1) (APG -- 2.0) junior
Giorgi Bez... F (PPG -- 8.4) (RPG -- 4.2) (APG -- 2.0) soph
Alan Griffin G (PPG -- 8.4) (RPG -- 4.2) (APG -- 0.3) soph
Kipper Nichols F (PPG -- 3.8) (RPG -- 1.9) (APG -- 0.7) senior
Da'Monte Williams (PPG -- 2.4) (RPG -- 3.8) (APG -- 1.3) junior

Everybody else average less than 5 minutes a game or 1.5 points a game

Daniel Oturu C (PPG -- 19.7) (RPG -- 11.3) (APG -- 1.2) soph
Marcus Carr G (PPG -- 16.1) (RPG -- 5.4) (APG -- 6.9) soph
Gabe Kalscheur G (PPG -- 12.0) (RPG -- 2.8) (APG -- 1.4) soph
Payton Willis G (PPG -- 8.8) (RPG -- 3.5) (APG -- 2.1) junior
Alihan Demir (PPG -- 7.6) (RPG -- 4.9) (APG -- 1.5) senior
Tre Wiliams (PPG -- 3.5) (RPG -- 2.3) (APG -- 1.0) freshman
Jarvis Omersa (PPG -- 2.3) (RPG -- 3.1) (APG -- 0.8) soph
Michael Hurt (PPG -- 1.6) (RPG -- 1.1) (APG -- 0.6) senior

From purely a production standpoint, I don't see a whole lot of difference.

Kalscheur is a wash with Feliz
Willis and Frasier give about the same production
Giorgi is not much different from Alihan
Illinois does have a better sixth man than the Gophers.

The rest of the guys on either team are bit players at best. Wouldn't you agree? This narrative about bench players is pretty overblown, in my opinion. They are bench players for a reason -- ability, inexperience, whatever.
 
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leib0039 said:
Now that I want it I can't find it but there was a stat out there than we get a higher % of our scoring from our starters than all but like 5 teams in the NCAA's this year. Our top bench guy is Tre at 3.5 points per game, I would think you have to look long and hard to find a team who's top bench guy is under that. Now, Carr/Oturu being very good are some of that but if anyone thinks our bench is equal to most of the other P5 schools, you are VERY wrong. That has 100% been a big problem i have had with Pitino throughout, we never have a bench. Its 1-4 guys and then just hope. Filling out a roster has been a big big stain on Pitino. We end up with way way too many Diedhou/Hurt types that you cant even play.
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We also have a current staff and assistants and group that evaluates significantly better than we had 3 year ago.. Agreed there have been too many misses, but I never really worry much about scoring from my bench and most programs don't either.

Here is an interesting article about the "best bench scorers in the NCAA"

https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketbal...ese-are-best-bench-scorers-college-basketball

I don't see many guys from top 25 teams on there. Most stick around the 7-8 number and if they have blow outs it also changes/skews the statistics. So it's not wrong.
 

manderson1984 said:
We also have a current staff and assistants and group that evaluates significantly better than we had 3 year ago.. Agreed there have been too many misses, but I never really worry much about scoring from my bench and most programs don't either.

Here is an interesting article about the "best bench scorers in the NCAA"

https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketbal...ese-are-best-bench-scorers-college-basketball

I don't see many guys from top 25 teams on there. Most stick around the 7-8 number and if they have blow outs it also changes/skews the statistics. So it's not wrong.
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I guess I'm not saying we need a 15 ppg Quincy Lewis type guy but we barely have guys who can function on the floor. I just pulled up Ga Tech as another middle of the pack P5 team, their top bench guys are about the same time per game but are 8ppg 6.5ppg 4 ppg. That's at least something, we have 3.5 2.0 1.5. I mean that's bad
 



leib0039 said:
I guess I'm not saying we need a 15 ppg Quincy Lewis type guy but we barely have guys who can function on the floor. I just pulled up Ga Tech as another middle of the pack P5 team, their top bench guys are about the same time per game but are 8ppg 6.5ppg 4 ppg. That's at least something, we have 3.5 2.0 1.5. I mean that's bad
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I get your point and of course it'd be nice, but ppg stats are a barometer of success. A lot of teams (Virginia for example) have bench guys who are just role defensive players (Jack Salt for example) and it'd be a travesty for him to take shots away from Ty Jerome, Kyle Guy, etc... Omersa is a great guy off the bench as is Williams. They play their roles diligently and all is good. We are losing games because we are not shooting as well as we should/could. Some will argue that'd be tired legs, but I just don't believe that myself with all the breaks and what kind of shape these guys are in. I'd also guess that Richard thought he'd get some production out of Ihnen, but it just hasn't happened yet.

Baylor plays 7 and their subs score 6, 4, and 4. Dukes subs go 6, 5, 4. Syracuse 5, 2, 2.

If you want some teams that have great depth it's Louisville and Florida State. Otherwise the rest play 7 or 8.
 

Interesting that we are the only team that has yet to receive a bye - only team that has played 10 games. We play our first 11 games, have a bye, play games 12 and 13, then have our second bye. Wouldnt think that is ideal.

Also, not sure, but feels like we should have one of the more easy schedules remaining. Especially after Thursday's game.
 
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jamiche said:
I counted four times that the gophers were beat getting back on defense because they were celebrating a made basket.
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I saw that too. Really pissed me off. There also was a time where a player didn’t get back because he was arguing a foul no-call with a ref. I think it was Oturu. Really maddening.
 

golfing18now said:
(Sorry about the formatting.....not sure how to fix that)

How about a comparison......our next opponent Illinois production against Minnesota production.

Ayo Dosunmu G (PPG -- 16.2) (RPG -- 4.3) (APG -- 3.5) soph
Kofi Cockburn C (PPG -- 14.5) (RPG -- 9.4) (APG -- 0.7) freshman
Andres Felix G (PPG -- 10.6) (RPG -- 4.7) (APG -- 3.1) senior
Trent Frazier G (PPG -- 9.9) (RPG -- 2.1) (APG -- 2.0) junior
Giorgi Bez... F (PPG -- 8.4) (RPG -- 4.2) (APG -- 2.0) soph
Alan Griffin G (PPG -- 8.4) (RPG -- 4.2) (APG -- 0.3) soph
Kipper Nichols F (PPG -- 3.8) (RPG -- 1.9) (APG -- 0.7) senior
Da'Monte Williams (PPG -- 2.4) (RPG -- 3.8) (APG -- 1.3) junior

Everybody else average less than 5 minutes a game or 1.5 points a game

Daniel Oturu C (PPG -- 19.7) (RPG -- 11.3) (APG -- 1.2) soph
Marcus Carr G (PPG -- 16.1) (RPG -- 5.4) (APG -- 6.9) soph
Gabe Kalscheur G (PPG -- 12.0) (RPG -- 2.8) (APG -- 1.4) soph
Payton Willis G (PPG -- 8.8) (RPG -- 3.5) (APG -- 2.1) junior
Alihan Demir (PPG -- 7.6) (RPG -- 4.9) (APG -- 1.5) senior
Tre Wiliams (PPG -- 3.5) (RPG -- 2.3) (APG -- 1.0) freshman
Jarvis Omersa (PPG -- 2.3) (RPG -- 3.1) (APG -- 0.8) soph
Michael Hurt (PPG -- 1.6) (RPG -- 1.1) (APG -- 0.6) senior

From purely a production standpoint, I don't see a whole lot of difference.

Kalscheur is a wash with Feliz
Willis and Frasier give about the same production
Giorgi is not much different from Alihan
Illinois does have a better sixth man than the Gophers.

The rest of the guys on either team are bit players at best. Wouldn't you agree? This narrative about bench players is pretty overblown, in my opinion. They are bench players for a reason -- ability, inexperience, whatever.
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Let's go with conference play since that is what really matters. Also, why don't you pick the stats that really show how efficient a player is? If Gabe shoots 15 times a game, he ought to be able to score SOME points.

Oturu and Carr - one is top three in the conference and the other probably is top 10 to top 20 anyway. We couldn't expect two players to contribute more than them

Gabe: 8.6 points per game, .314 FG %, Player Efficiency Rating - 5.2 (horrible!, especially for a starter), Win shares = -.01 (truly dreadful), True Shooting % - .397 (about Isaiah Washington territory, or worse)

Willis: 6 points per game, .302 FG %, Player Efficiency Rating - 8.0 (lousy), Win shares = .02 (more lousy), True Shooting % - .410 (bad but better than Gabe at least)

Alihan: 11.2 points per game, .426 FG %, Player Efficiency Rating - 15.2 (not bad), Win shares = .07 (not great but not terrible), True Shooting % - .512 (fair); he's our 3rd best offensive player

Do I really need to go into the others? I shouldn't be telling you anything you don't already know.

I'm 63 years old and I'm more up-to-date with advanced stats that you. That's pathetic.







Willis:
 

leib0039 said:
That has 100% been a big problem i have had with Pitino throughout, we never have a bench. Its 1-4 guys and then just hope. Filling out a roster has been a big big stain on Pitino. We end up with way way too many Diedhou/Hurt types that you cant even play.
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I once read the comments of an NBA player speaking anonymously to ESPN magazine during the NBA strike. He said he would play in Europe if the strike wiped out the season. More importantly, he said that there is a dirty little secret about American coaching - it's below the coaching in Europe and that persists at every level. He said that American coaches, for the most part, just ride the most talented players and do little to develop fundamentals, team play, or lesser players. I repeated those comments to a women's basketball coach from Australia who was coaching at an American DI university and she said that she feels the same way about women's basketball.

Pitino has always struck me as the epitome of this characterization. He squeezes every ounce from his stars, doesn't develop quality role players, and the theme of his offense often is "get the ball to our best one or two players."
 

cjbfbp said:
Let's go with conference play since that is what really matters. Also, why don't you pick the stats that really show how efficient a player is? If Gabe shoots 15 times a game, he ought to be able to score SOME points.

Oturu and Carr - one is top three in the conference and the other probably is top 10 to top 20 anyway. We couldn't expect two players to contribute more than them

Gabe: 8.6 points per game, .314 FG %, Player Efficiency Rating - 5.2 (horrible!, especially for a starter), Win shares = -.01 (truly dreadful), True Shooting % - .397 (about Isaiah Washington territory, or worse)

Willis: 6 points per game, .302 FG %, Player Efficiency Rating - 8.0 (lousy), Win shares = .02 (more lousy), True Shooting % - .410 (bad but better than Gabe at least)

Alihan: 11.2 points per game, .426 FG %, Player Efficiency Rating - 15.2 (not bad), Win shares = .07 (not great but not terrible), True Shooting % - .512 (fair); he's our 3rd best offensive player

Do I really need to go into the others? I shouldn't be telling you anything you don't already know.

I'm 63 years old and I'm more up-to-date with advanced stats that you. That's pathetic.







Willis:
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Thanks for sharing that info. Hard to argue with facts, but your nemesis probably will anyway.
 

cjbfbp said:
Let's go with conference play since that is what really matters. Also, why don't you pick the stats that really show how efficient a player is? If Gabe shoots 15 times a game, he ought to be able to score SOME points.

Oturu and Carr - one is top three in the conference and the other probably is top 10 to top 20 anyway. We couldn't expect two players to contribute more than them

Gabe: 8.6 points per game, .314 FG %, Player Efficiency Rating - 5.2 (horrible!, especially for a starter), Win shares = -.01 (truly dreadful), True Shooting % - .397 (about Isaiah Washington territory, or worse)

Willis: 6 points per game, .302 FG %, Player Efficiency Rating - 8.0 (lousy), Win shares = .02 (more lousy), True Shooting % - .410 (bad but better than Gabe at least)

Alihan: 11.2 points per game, .426 FG %, Player Efficiency Rating - 15.2 (not bad), Win shares = .07 (not great but not terrible), True Shooting % - .512 (fair); he's our 3rd best offensive player

Do I really need to go into the others? I shouldn't be telling you anything you don't already know.

I'm 63 years old and I'm more up-to-date with advanced stats that you. That's pathetic.







Willis:
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Actually thought I could have an honest dialogue with you, but you can't help yourself. See bold. The point really wasn't as much about the starters production as it was about the lack of production from the bench across all teams. But you are probably right. You are better at reciting useless stats than I am to prove a subjective opinion. But you are also definitely a bigger jerk than I am on this board as has been proven a number of times. As a wise man once said... that's pathetic.
 


golfing18now said:
Nope. Not going to argue with him. He made some good points. Do you have anything productive to add?
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Nope. Nice to hear a good end to a discussion. I get tired of people not willing to admit they were wrong and I wrongly assumed you would be like the majority on this site. So, I was wrong this time.
 


1-1 @ ohio state and against michigan state. I'm sure everybody had us 0-2. Next up @ illinois and host wisconsin. Love to win 2 games, but HAVE to get 1!
 


cjbfbp said:
Let's go with conference play since that is what really matters. Also, why don't you pick the stats that really show how efficient a player is? If Gabe shoots 15 times a game, he ought to be able to score SOME points.

Oturu and Carr - one is top three in the conference and the other probably is top 10 to top 20 anyway. We couldn't expect two players to contribute more than them

Gabe: 8.6 points per game, .314 FG %, Player Efficiency Rating - 5.2 (horrible!, especially for a starter), Win shares = -.01 (truly dreadful), True Shooting % - .397 (about Isaiah Washington territory, or worse)

Willis: 6 points per game, .302 FG %, Player Efficiency Rating - 8.0 (lousy), Win shares = .02 (more lousy), True Shooting % - .410 (bad but better than Gabe at least)

Alihan: 11.2 points per game, .426 FG %, Player Efficiency Rating - 15.2 (not bad), Win shares = .07 (not great but not terrible), True Shooting % - .512 (fair); he's our 3rd best offensive player

Do I really need to go into the others? I shouldn't be telling you anything you don't already know.

I'm 63 years old and I'm more up-to-date with advanced stats that you. That's pathetic.







Willis:
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Out of curiosity I checked the True Shooting % of college players, Nnaji was near the top with over 71%, anywhere in the high 40% and above is in the average range.
 

The problem the Gophers are having is that the 4 thru 7 spots are true bench players, they are not currently getting production from all 5 starters. You may play the same number of players but your bench appears very soft and you are forced to play people major minutes that aren't producing.
 

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