Midseason termination is not a bad thing

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short ornery norwegian said:
in practical terms - what does a mid-season firing accomplish?

on the plus side, it lets candidates know the job is open and allows agents to begin back-channel negotiations while maintaining plausible deniability for their clients.

on the flip side - who coaches the team for the rest of the season? You have:
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John Beilien
 




Ewert86PC said:
I am not against a midseason termination of CBJ because he is expecting this, this lackadaisical, bumbling, laissez-faire, bumbling attitude to be acceptable for the remainder of this year and his contract.

He is not exhibiting any sense of urgency to make this team improve in the near-term or even in the next week. This mysterious cerebral coach affect he wants to project works against him, especially when he gets outcoached on a regular basis.

This attitude is seeping over onto the team and does the players a huge disservice.

If CBJ isn't showing a sense of urgency in the next week to ten days look for The Barn to be half-filled by Gopher fans for the remainder of the season. This will be a pleasant experience when Iowa and Wisconsin come to play and their fans are able to buy tickets for less than face value. :eyeroll:
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Sense of urgency?? What's he supposed to do when our best players & recruits get bribed away with hundreds-of-thousands of dollars?

He needs to be careful to not develop Payne & Christie TOO QUICKLY.
 


howeda7 said:
And then next year and the year after that?
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...sure then Beilein for one more. Showing that you can win here....then go after a proven winner under 50 years old. I think a guy like Beilein could go .500 with what he have now and a lot better with a couple guard transfers. It's all hypothetical as that would never happen here- its too smart.
 

bga1 said:
...sure then Beilein for one more. Showing that you can win here....then go after a proven winner under 50 years old. I think a guy like Beilein could go .500 with what he have now and a lot better with a couple guard transfers. It's all hypothetical as that would never happen here- its too smart.
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He's only 70. He can coach us for 10 years, win a couple national titles, then run for President.
 





howeda7 said:
Even Reusse, who likes Ben, said he's on double-secret probation and "coaching for his job" on Wednesday.
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Did he make that sound like reporting or just speculation? It's sometimes hard to tell with him.

In either case, honest to goodness, I've never understood the concept of "coaching for your job" in one game. If that makes it more likely that your team will win, why shouldn't you be coaching for your job in every game?
 

Bad Gopher said:
Did he make that sound like reporting or just speculation? It's sometimes hard to tell with him.

In either case, honest to goodness, I've never understood the concept of "coaching for your job" in one game. If that makes it more likely that your team will win, why shouldn't you be coaching for your job in every game?
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Speculation. He did say he didn't think they would pull the plug mid season.

It's not that it's one game in this case IMO. But there's not another meaningful game for a month. If you're going to make a move, this would be the logical point to do so.
 
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per sportico: basketball operating revenues are $17M and expenses $8M. that's a $9M profit for a U athletics total budget of about $110M. And no dramas with the program
www.sportico.com

Sportico’s Intercollegiate Finance Database

Sportico is maintaining an interactive, real-time database that tracks the official balance sheets of public FBS university athletic departments.
www.sportico.com www.sportico.com

guessing CBJ is here for a while, at least through this and next season - unless boosters step up with millions of dollars to make the change
 

GopherOhana said:
per sportico: basketball operating revenues are $17M and expenses $8M. that's a $9M profit for a U athletics total budget of about $110M. And no dramas with the program
www.sportico.com

Sportico’s Intercollegiate Finance Database

Sportico is maintaining an interactive, real-time database that tracks the official balance sheets of public FBS university athletic departments.
www.sportico.com www.sportico.com

guessing CBJ is here for a while, at least through this and next season - unless boosters step up with millions of dollars to make the change
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I hope you are right. But someone paid Bruce Weber to write something and post it at this time.
 



GopherOhana said:
per sportico: basketball operating revenues are $17M and expenses $8M. that's a $9M profit for a U athletics total budget of about $110M. And no dramas with the program
www.sportico.com

Sportico’s Intercollegiate Finance Database

Sportico is maintaining an interactive, real-time database that tracks the official balance sheets of public FBS university athletic departments.
www.sportico.com www.sportico.com

guessing CBJ is here for a while, at least through this and next season - unless boosters step up with millions of dollars to make the change
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As I opined earlier in this thread, I'm not sure the U totally understands what they're missing out on when it comes to revenue and the prominence of the institution if their main sports were more successful. Just because you're treading water doesn't mean you're doing well.

Coyle pulled the plug on the Whalen experiment a year earlier than I thought he would, and lookey, lookey: a couple sellouts already this year and potentially more in the offing. Obviously, the men's situation isn't the same as the women's, entailing a higher buyout and salary to attract someone capable of fixing this heap. But if there was ever a case of benefit coming from making a change as a general concept, look no further than your sister program.
 


Bad Gopher said:
Did he make that sound like reporting or just speculation? It's sometimes hard to tell with him.

In either case, honest to goodness, I've never understood the concept of "coaching for your job" in one game. If that makes it more likely that your team will win, why shouldn't you be coaching for your job in every game?
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Zero chance he has any actual connections and really knows anything about the situation.
 

GopherOhana said:
per sportico: basketball operating revenues are $17M and expenses $8M. that's a $9M profit for a U athletics total budget of about $110M. And no dramas with the program
www.sportico.com

Sportico’s Intercollegiate Finance Database

Sportico is maintaining an interactive, real-time database that tracks the official balance sheets of public FBS university athletic departments.
www.sportico.com www.sportico.com

guessing CBJ is here for a while, at least through this and next season - unless boosters step up with millions of dollars to make the change
Click to expand...
Assuming the team doesn't over perform, Ben's tenure will depend on a number of things in addition to the buyout:

1. Booster contributions (as you said);
2. Likelihood of mass exodus of players if he stays...or if he leaves:
3. The quality and price of coaches in the marketplace;
4. Coyle's perception of his own job security.
 



GopherOhana said:
per sportico: basketball operating revenues are $17M and expenses $8M. that's a $9M profit for a U athletics total budget of about $110M. And no dramas with the program
www.sportico.com

Sportico’s Intercollegiate Finance Database

Sportico is maintaining an interactive, real-time database that tracks the official balance sheets of public FBS university athletic departments.
www.sportico.com www.sportico.com

guessing CBJ is here for a while, at least through this and next season - unless boosters step up with millions of dollars to make the change
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They're still costing themselves millions in ticket/concession sales next year if they bring him back.
 

OK now I'm getting pissed. Let's look at the MN program from an historical perspective, and what has happened compared to the successes the Gophers have experienced.

1972-75 Bill Musselman coached the circus to many wins, led the nation in attendance '75, but was never able to overcome the ugly brawl incident vs. Ohio St. He definitely established a culture that led to the incident. Fired and NCAA discovered over 100 rule violations and Gophers were put on probation.

1977-86 Jim Dutcher guided the program to much success, but resigned in 1986 after 3 players were arrested for sexual assault while boarding the plane the morning after a Wisconsin game. The woman in question identified the players at the airport, but they were officially found not guilty after a few years.

1987-99 Clem Haskins "glory" years in Big Ten an NCAA Final Four. BTN Champs '97, yet resigned in '99 after academic scandal w/scorned Ganglehoff writing hundreds of papers for players. NCAA eliminated 6 seasons, and put MN on 4 yrs probation!

1999-06 Dan Monson took over a program in turmoil (again!), but had 5 winning seasons, 4 NITs, and an NCAA appearance despite lack of scholarships and other restrictions. Recruited well, used smoke and mirrors, but last place finish in '05-06 and '06 losses to Marist, S. Illinois, Montana, Winona St., Iowa St. caused resignation out of fatigue and frustration w/controversies in program.

2009-2013 Tubby Smith took over program in disarray (get the theme?) never finished above .500 in conf. play and was fired after 6 seasons of frustration. Was a huge advocate for construction of the athletic facilities at MN, but never saw the fruits of his labor.

2014-2021 Richard Pitino was brought in from FIU with limited experience, yet his enthusiasm and pedigree, guided MN to early success and optimism. Yet, in his 3rd season the Kevin Lynch sexual assault allegations led to a suspension and a lost season with distraction. He never recovered, and MN got worse leading to his firing in 2021. Pitino was a weak recruiter (esp. MN talent), and never delivered on the "exciting brand" of basketball he promised.

So, MN hired Minnesotan, former Gopher, MN asst. coach, and Xavier asst. Ben Johnson. After all the MN Gopher BB program has been through, I have NO problem when CBJ says he wants to build a program "the right way" with the "right guys". Give the guy a reasonable period of time to do his job before grabbing pitchforks.
 

SplitDecision said:
OK now I'm getting pissed. Let's look at the MN program from an historical perspective, and what has happened compared to the successes the Gophers have experienced.

1972-75 Bill Musselman coached the circus to many wins, led the nation in attendance '75, but was never able to overcome the ugly brawl incident vs. Ohio St. He definitely established a culture that led to the incident. Fired and NCAA discovered over 100 rule violations and Gophers were put on probation.

1977-86 Jim Dutcher guided the program to much success, but resigned in 1986 after 3 players were arrested for sexual assault while boarding the plane the morning after a Wisconsin game. The woman in question identified the players at the airport, but they were officially found not guilty after a few years.

1987-99 Clem Haskins "glory" years in Big Ten an NCAA Final Four. BTN Champs '97, yet resigned in '99 after academic scandal w/scorned Ganglehoff writing hundreds of papers for players. NCAA eliminated 6 seasons, and put MN on 4 yrs probation!

1999-06 Dan Monson took over a program in turmoil (again!), but had 5 winning seasons, 4 NITs, and an NCAA appearance despite lack of scholarships and other restrictions. Recruited well, used smoke and mirrors, but last place finish in '05-06 and '06 losses to Marist, S. Illinois, Montana, Winona St., Iowa St. caused resignation out of fatigue and frustration w/controversies in program.

2009-2013 Tubby Smith took over program in disarray (get the theme?) never finished above .500 in conf. play and was fired after 6 seasons of frustration. Was a huge advocate for construction of the athletic facilities at MN, but never saw the fruits of his labor.

2014-2021 Richard Pitino was brought in from FIU with limited experience, yet his enthusiasm and pedigree, guided MN to early success and optimism. Yet, in his 3rd season the Kevin Lynch sexual assault allegations led to a suspension and a lost season with distraction. He never recovered, and MN got worse leading to his firing in 2021. Pitino was a weak recruiter (esp. MN talent), and never delivered on the "exciting brand" of basketball he promised.

So, MN hired Minnesotan, former Gopher, MN asst. coach, and Xavier asst. Ben Johnson. After all the MN Gopher BB program has been through, I have NO problem when CBJ says he wants to build a program "the right way" with the "right guys". Give the guy a reasonable period of time to do his job before grabbing pitchforks.
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"In reality we have always been bad so there is no reason we should be upset about continuing to be bad"
 

SplitDecision said:
OK now I'm getting pissed. Let's look at the MN program from an historical perspective, and what has happened compared to the successes the Gophers have experienced.

1972-75 Bill Musselman coached the circus to many wins, led the nation in attendance '75, but was never able to overcome the ugly brawl incident vs. Ohio St. He definitely established a culture that led to the incident. Fired and NCAA discovered over 100 rule violations and Gophers were put on probation.

1977-86 Jim Dutcher guided the program to much success, but resigned in 1986 after 3 players were arrested for sexual assault while boarding the plane the morning after a Wisconsin game. The woman in question identified the players at the airport, but they were officially found not guilty after a few years.

1987-99 Clem Haskins "glory" years in Big Ten an NCAA Final Four. BTN Champs '97, yet resigned in '99 after academic scandal w/scorned Ganglehoff writing hundreds of papers for players. NCAA eliminated 6 seasons, and put MN on 4 yrs probation!

1999-06 Dan Monson took over a program in turmoil (again!), but had 5 winning seasons, 4 NITs, and an NCAA appearance despite lack of scholarships and other restrictions. Recruited well, used smoke and mirrors, but last place finish in '05-06 and '06 losses to Marist, S. Illinois, Montana, Winona St., Iowa St. caused resignation out of fatigue and frustration w/controversies in program.

2009-2013 Tubby Smith took over program in disarray (get the theme?) never finished above .500 in conf. play and was fired after 6 seasons of frustration. Was a huge advocate for construction of the athletic facilities at MN, but never saw the fruits of his labor.

2014-2021 Richard Pitino was brought in from FIU with limited experience, yet his enthusiasm and pedigree, guided MN to early success and
Click to expand...


SplitDecision said:
optimism. Yet, in his 3rd season the Kevin Lynch sexual assault allegations led to a suspension and a lost season with distraction. He never recovered, and MN got worse leading to his firing in 2021. Pitino was a weak recruiter (esp. MN talent), and never delivered on the "exciting brand" of basketball he promised.

So, MN hired Minnesotan, former Gopher, MN asst. coach, and Xavier asst. Ben Johnson. After all the MN Gopher BB program has been through, I have NO problem when CBJ says he wants to build a program "the right way" with the "right guys". Give the guy a reasonable period of time to do his job before grabbing pitchforks.
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Yah come on everyone. What we need to have is a program that develops kids so they are ready to produce in their 3rd and 4th years in. We need to get bigs who back down into the lane and shoot hook shots. We aren't going to mess around with that new fangled 3 point line, that's a shot for suckers, it will never catch on!

Come on mam, we get it, you're old and you want everyone off your lawn. This isn't 1975, you don't keep kids for 4 years almost ever, the transfer portal is a thing, paying kids is a thing. There is 0 reason a coach in a P5 school should win 10ish conference games over a 3 year stretch and keep their job. What's this "building " you speak of? We're losing our best player after this year, our young guys aren't improving a bunch. Face it, our coach sucks. The school makes millions of dollars, it's ok to fire him and move on. If you are worried about a squeaky clean appearance, sorry you won't find it. The NCAA is dirty AF, if you don't bend the rules, push the limits, etc you are going to be bad, you don't have to like it, but it's reality.
 

GopherBlood777 said:
"In reality we have always been bad so there is no reason we should be upset about continuing to be bad"
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Makes sense to me.

Seriously, the post you replied to is slanted and intellectually dishonest. We first got our season tickets in 90-91. The Gophs had just been to the rounds of 8 and 16 the previous two years (cleanly, I might add) and were only nine years removed from a conference title. They'd just recruited Ariel McDonald and would subsequently add Voshon Lenard, Randy Carter, and Jayson Walton. The building was full and rocking. A snapshot in time, I know, but that level of success and excitement is easily within reach for a school and a city like ours, under the right leadership and administration. This situation has always had great potential and continues to, which I suspect is why a lot of us stick around. There is no logical reason why the success they've had in Madison is not possible here.
 
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SplitDecision said:
OK now I'm getting pissed. Let's look at the MN program from an historical perspective, and what has happened compared to the successes the Gophers have experienced.

1972-75 Bill Musselman coached the circus to many wins, led the nation in attendance '75, but was never able to overcome the ugly brawl incident vs. Ohio St. He definitely established a culture that led to the incident. Fired and NCAA discovered over 100 rule violations and Gophers were put on probation.

1977-86 Jim Dutcher guided the program to much success, but resigned in 1986 after 3 players were arrested for sexual assault while boarding the plane the morning after a Wisconsin game. The woman in question identified the players at the airport, but they were officially found not guilty after a few years.

1987-99 Clem Haskins "glory" years in Big Ten an NCAA Final Four. BTN Champs '97, yet resigned in '99 after academic scandal w/scorned Ganglehoff writing hundreds of papers for players. NCAA eliminated 6 seasons, and put MN on 4 yrs probation!

1999-06 Dan Monson took over a program in turmoil (again!), but had 5 winning seasons, 4 NITs, and an NCAA appearance despite lack of scholarships and other restrictions. Recruited well, used smoke and mirrors, but last place finish in '05-06 and '06 losses to Marist, S. Illinois, Montana, Winona St., Iowa St. caused resignation out of fatigue and frustration w/controversies in program.

2009-2013 Tubby Smith took over program in disarray (get the theme?) never finished above .500 in conf. play and was fired after 6 seasons of frustration. Was a huge advocate for construction of the athletic facilities at MN, but never saw the fruits of his labor.

2014-2021 Richard Pitino was brought in from FIU with limited experience, yet his enthusiasm and pedigree, guided MN to early success and optimism. Yet, in his 3rd season the Kevin Lynch sexual assault allegations led to a suspension and a lost season with distraction. He never recovered, and MN got worse leading to his firing in 2021. Pitino was a weak recruiter (esp. MN talent), and never delivered on the "exciting brand" of basketball he promised.

So, MN hired Minnesotan, former Gopher, MN asst. coach, and Xavier asst. Ben Johnson. After all the MN Gopher BB program has been through, I have NO problem when CBJ says he wants to build a program "the right way" with the "right guys". Give the guy a reasonable period of time to do his job before grabbing pitchforks.
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In this era of college basketball, he's been given a reasonable period of time. And he's failed spectacularly. There is virtually no evidence that "more time" will change anything. Garcia will most likely move on after this year. There's a chance Payne and/or Christie will as well. They will likely get worse, not better.
 

howeda7 said:
In this era of college basketball, he's been given a reasonable period of time. And he's failed spectacularly. There is virtually no evidence that "more time" will change anything. Garcia will most likely move on after this year. There's a chance Payne and/or Christie will as well. They will likely get worse, not better.
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Yeah it is pretty tough for anyone to speculate at this point we will actually have a better roster next year. This is why winning this year is so important.
 

SplitDecision said:
I have NO problem when CBJ says he wants to build a program "the right way" with the "right guys". Give the guy a reasonable period of time to do his job before grabbing pitchforks.
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What is the "right way"? Losing alot? Not guarding anyone? Turning the ball over alot?

These 3 things have been constants since Ben got here. They are also thing that a coach can control and don't have a ton to do with talent!
The right coach teaches every player to play the game at the highest intensity level available to them and make the smartest plays, take care of the ball, etc.

If we aren't going to out-talent anyone(we never will), have to player smarter(take care of the ball), defend better than anyone else, and have an identity that is easily seen throughout whatever lineup is on the floor.
All I ever see if bad defensive rotations, guys getting beat on the ball, and offenses that stand still and wait for one guy to do something with little off-ball movement.

Also, some of this can be forgiven if you are a suberb recruiter. But I don't see any of his classes being any better than anything we've had here before. He is Munson-like as a recruiter if that mean's anything to you. Got lucky with Garcia coming home like Rickert did and gets himself about 1 strong player per recruiting class and a bunch of mid-major D2 fringy guys to fill out the rest of the roster.

Give him this year fine. But if at the end of the year you can't count any of the above things as strengths, then it's time to kick him out the door and do this the real "right way" with a stud like Musslemen or Medved or someone of the sort.
 

GopherBlood777 said:
Yeah it is pretty tough for anyone to speculate at this point we will actually have a better roster next year. This is why winning this year is so important.
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Yes, I do think he needs to show something this season (like a record over .500 at least) to get a 4th year and I agree that he may well have a harder time next year if Garcia leaves. Nevertheless, he deserved 3 years because other Big Ten coaches with miserable performance records got at least that much and, NO, he shouldn't be fired in mid-season.

Howe is like the biblical snake in the grass. If you follow him, you'll end up like Adam.
 

EasyThere Pilgrim said:
Sense of urgency?? What's he supposed to do when our best players & recruits get bribed away with hundreds-of-thousands of dollars?

He needs to be careful to not develop Payne & Christie TOO QUICKLY.
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Huh? The only players Ben has lost are Evans who has been awful and Battle whoever said was way worse than Betts. You thought Betts was so much better than him that it destroyed Battle.

The sad truth is that, for the most part, Ben hasn't been able to bring in guys good enough to even be poached.
 

TwistingMyMelon said:
Yes, I do think he needs to show something this season (like a record over .500 at least) to get a 4th year and I agree that he may well have a harder time next year if Garcia leaves. Nevertheless, he deserved 3 years because other Big Ten coaches with miserable performance records got at least that much and, NO, he shouldn't be fired in mid-season.

Howe is like the biblical snake in the grass. If you follow him, you'll end up like Adam.
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This is the right take. The only caveat would be if the team has absolutely quit on him. If it's midseason and we're getting trounced every game - I might make a move. If the team is competing, Ben should get the full season.
 

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