Make no mistake. The responsible party for this team circling the drain is ..

[Gophers_4life]

Nope. The Pac 12 will be small-time by this time next year.

It'll be the 10 (current without USC and UCLA) with the potential to add SDSU and Gonzaga.

Might be an even better basketball conf?

 

[Gophers_4life]

It is on the Administration and Coyle. They hired a guy for a job that he should have never been considered for to begin with.

Can’t blame Ben Johnson for taking the job.

Bolded: 100% agree. Ben really thought he could do what he sold Coyle (and Gable, maybe) on for his vision. And he's still trying his ass off.

Time will tell if he actually has the ability to pull it off or not. But that time is quickly running out.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

I think people continue to mix two different lines of thought here. Does the administration deserve blame for when they make a bad hire? Yes. But after they make a decision on who to hire, it's 100% on that person to make the most of that job.

The administration or Coyle isn't running these programs. Coaches with no or limited head coaching experience have been successful at other P6 programs now, and in the past.

Ben is the CEO of the basketball program and is in control of every aspect of it, just like PJ is in football, and Motzko is in hockey. Does the administration deserve praise for their success? Why does the administration want those programs to be successful and not basketball? If coach P is successful on the women's side, unlike Whalen, that's not because of how coach P operates compared to Whalen? The administration just waved a magic wand and said now coach P will be successful?

The administration isn't recruiting 10 power forwards and no guards. The administration doesn't refuse to use all of the allotted scholarships. The administration isn't choosing assistant coaches or the schedule.

Ben sold himself to the administration on why he's the right person for the job, and why he was going to be successful here. But now we're going to say that the outcome was predetermined, that it's not his fault, and we just need to be ok that he's essentially stealing money and reducing the program to its worst state in history?

It's ridiculous to blame this on anyone else other than Ben Johnson.

 

[The SF Rock]

Bolded: 100% agree. Ben really thought he could do what he sold Coyle (and Gable, maybe) on for his vision. And he's still trying his ass off.

Time will tell if he actually has the ability to pull it off or not. But that time is quickly running out.

Your term paper gets a “F.” Nothing but BS to back your manufactured assertions.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

this is off-topic, but didn't want to start a new thread.

speaking of the Gopher AD:

remember how he said Lindsey Whalen's departure from the Women's Head Basketball job was a
"mutual decision?" and how Whalen was going to be a 'special assistant to the AD' to work on fundraising for NIL?

well, today the story broke that Whalen received a "termination settlement" of $215,000, based on (according to the Strib)

section 3.2 of her contract, the University's right to terminate without cause.

it would be interesting to hear Mark Coyle explain how a mutual decision suddenly became a termination without cause.

 

[Dave H]

It is on the Administration and Coyle. They hired a guy for a job that he should have never been considered for to begin with.

Can’t blame Ben Johnson for taking the job.

So then it wasn't Tim Brewster's fault and all of PJ's success is attributable to the Administration and Coyle?

 

[TNGophfan]

I agree with Ganglehoff and add the boosters for their rejection of NIL. Ben is going to be our John Wooden. Look at the 4 Stars he is putting on the floor this year. With our non-conference schedule promoting team growth we will have a year shocking most everyone. Then I will say welcome back to all the ‘holers denigrating our student athletes, coaching staff, and AD. Pony up NIL to keep this team together.

Hope you're right but I think you're delusional.

 

[The SF Rock]

Hope you're right but I think you're delusional.

Thanks for being civil.

 

[Bobek]

I

Coyle and Ben also deserve blame, but I voted the administration. It's been very clear for years now that they don't care about the men's basketball program.

It’s about the money to hire a very successful coach like Musselman. They just won’t or can’t pay to make that decision. That said, let’s see how this year goes before throwing BJ under the bus like some of you experts have already done.

 

[EG#9]

This is a very tough question to assign all/most of the blame to one person. I want to give a few thoughts (going from the theoretical most powerful position on down).

The administration: This is the 2nd hire in a row that came in to the Big Ten as the youngest coach in the conference, with the least impressive resume (could maybe argue a few with Pitino like Chris Collins but even Pat Chambers was coming off an NCAA appearance at Boston U when he was hired at Penn State). Then you go back to Tubby and the decision to not let either Royce White or Trevor Mbakwe play when he really had things rolling to start year 3. The delay on the practice facility goes here too...as does the general unwillingness to drive in 70 mph in the 70 mph zone much less the 75 plus flow of traffic that most are driving with regards to NCAA regulations. The decisions have spanned several AD's and have been pretty consistently horrible for the basketball program. I also believe the most likely scenario was Gabel made the Ben Johnson hire as at least two people have suggested publicly (Reusse, Shama).

Coyle: Extending Pitino was a misktake and he had both Hoiberg and Musselman at his fingertips then. I believe Hoiberg would have been much better here than he has been at Nebraska, but others might think we dodged a bullet there. The next Coyle mistake was not seeing the Star Tribune hit piece coming on the lack of diversity in his hires. I think it was a completely unfair piece ( 2 of the last 4 Gopher Men's BB coaches had been black), but Coyle should not have hired solely white people up to that point. The next thing was Coyle should have cited the need for a track record of success as a head coach when he fired Pitino. This would have set the expectation and getting turned down by guys like Ed Cooley (already turned down Michigan) and Kelvin Sampson (son is head coach in waiting at Houston) would have given him "cover" to hire a white guy. The next mistake Coyle made was even bringing in Ben Johnson for an interview (this is assuming Gabel wasn't pushing for him immediately when Pitino was fired). He was completely unqualified for this position. It would have been hard to find a coach who had been less successful at the high major level than Ben Johnson over the last decade. As the AD, you'd hope Coyle would have the ability to navigate his President and get her to agree to another candidate...selling people is part of the job. So Coyle has F'd up a lot here, but there are also strong rumors from multiple places (both in Minneapolis and San Diego) that Dutcher was Coyle's guy and then something changed. It's at least possible this was completely out of his control.

Ben Johnson: I am sorry, but I disagree with those that say the can't blame Ben for taking the job. He claimed this was his dream job, but applied for it after not getting the Montana State and Northern Illinois jobs? If he truly cared about Minnesota, my perspective is he should have known he was not qualified for a high major job at this point in his career. This would be the equivalent to failing to get a job at Edward Jones and then applying at a top firm on Wall Street. The job performance speaks for itself, but has he really treated this like his dream job? Look how active PJ Fleck is in getting both his own name out there and that of the Univeristy of Minnesota. The fact that articles come out listing our coach as Ben Jacobson isn't surprising with the incredibly low profile he keeps.

One thing I don't like is the idea that some have that a "diversity" hire had to be made and because the hire was "diverse" it was always going to work out like this. I wanted an established coach with a track record of going to the NCAA's. The list of coaches that meet that criteria is overwhelmingly white largely because other schools have mostly hired white coaches. If that wasn't going to be the first necessary criteria, guys like Dennis Gates, Micah Shrewsberry, and Jerome Tang were all available. Those 3 all had much better resumes than Ben Johnson and have had excellent starts to their careers as head coaches at the high major level and all could have been hired here. Dwayne Stephens went to the Final Four as an assistant at Marquette under Crean then spent NINETEEN years as an assistant at Michigan State under Izzo before getting an opportunity at Western Michigan last year. We hired a guy who had been to 1 NCAA tournament (zero wins) in his last decade as an assistant under coaching luminaries like Richard Pitino and Travis Steele to a Big Ten job. There are many, many talented coaches out there who fit the "diverse" criteria. To me, the Ben Johnson hire seemed every bit as provincial as it was anything else.

 

[disco]

So then it wasn't Tim Brewster's fault and all of PJ's success is attributable to the Administration and Coyle?

What? PJ was the right hire and was absolutely qualified for the job.
Brew was arguably LESS qualified than Pitino and has to this day, never held another head coaching job. I wouldn't let that dumbass coach my kids team.

 

[howeda7]

Coyle and Ben also deserve blame, but I voted the administration. It's been very clear for years now that they don't care about the men's basketball program.

Ben cares. I don't doubt that. He's just not capable of doing much about it. Coyle doesn't seem to care.

 

[scools12]

So then it wasn't Tim Brewster's fault and all of PJ's success is attributable to the Administration and Coyle?

Does Johnson have blame for his team being horrendous? Of course he does though I still put the majority of the blame on those who hired him.

The point still stands that it is not the coach’s fault he was hired.

 

[formerlybis]

Does Johnson have blame for his team being horrendous? Of course he does though I still put the majority of the blame on those who hired him.

The point still stands that it is not the coach’s fault he was hired.

I don't subscribe to this way of thinking at all. Are the people who hired/invested in Elizabeth Holmes to blame for her failure? Bernie Madoff?

People act like Johnson was hired off the street with zero credentials. He had several years as an assistant in big time college basketball and had local connections that would hopefully lead to better recruiting. Some people didn't like the hire because of holes in his resume (and other less savory reasons), but people with his level of experience and background do succeed. People with better resumes fail (e.g. Lickliter). You don't really know. Once you get the job, it's what YOU do with it.

 

[CPTMidnight]

McKinley Boston mismanaged the whole affair. He could have put his finger in the dike and made it a non-issue. Instead he pled guilty and threw the U on the mercy of the NCAA court.

While it is obviously more nuanced than pointing at one person and one specific tenure - Boston and company is, perhaps, the best example of the weak leadership that has led the athletics program for decades.

Birdbrained fearful men (and women) making cowardly decisions separates the U from the top programs in the country (and our state in general these days).

 

[goldengophers]

I don't subscribe to this way of thinking at all. Are the people who hired/invested in Elizabeth Holmes to blame for her failure? Bernie Madoff?

People act like Johnson was hired off the street with zero credentials. He had several years as an assistant in big time college basketball and had local connections that would hopefully lead to better recruiting. Some people didn't like the hire because of holes in his resume (and other less savory reasons), but people with his level of experience and background do succeed. People with better resumes fail (e.g. Lickliter). You don't really know. Once you get the job, it's what YOU do with it.

He was an assistant under midling coaches at midling programs, very few with his experience succeed and he was a horrible hire from the jump.

 

[Ewert86PC]

I voted for the administration. The faces change but the attitude of willful ignorance towards athletics marches on.

 

[Gophers7NatTitlesBadgers0]

Corky Taylor and Ron Behagen!

 

[formerlybis]

I think people continue to mix two different lines of thought here. Does the administration deserve blame for when they make a bad hire? Yes. But after they make a decision on who to hire, it's 100% on that person to make the most of that job.

The administration or Coyle isn't running these programs. Coaches with no or limited head coaching experience have been successful at other P6 programs now, and in the past.

Ben is the CEO of the basketball program and is in control of every aspect of it, just like PJ is in football, and Motzko is in hockey. Does the administration deserve praise for their success? Why does the administration want those programs to be successful and not basketball? If coach P is successful on the women's side, unlike Whalen, that's not because of how coach P operates compared to Whalen? The administration just waved a magic wand and said now coach P will be successful?

The administration isn't recruiting 10 power forwards and no guards. The administration doesn't refuse to use all of the allotted scholarships. The administration isn't choosing assistant coaches or the schedule.

Ben sold himself to the administration on why he's the right person for the job, and why he was going to be successful here. But now we're going to say that the outcome was predetermined, that it's not his fault, and we just need to be ok that he's essentially stealing money and reducing the program to its worst state in history?

It's ridiculous to blame this on anyone else other than Ben Johnson.

This times infinity.

 

[Gophers_4life]

I think people continue to mix two different lines of thought here. Does the administration deserve blame for when they make a bad hire? Yes. But after they make a decision on who to hire, it's 100% on that person to make the most of that job.

The administration or Coyle isn't running these programs. Coaches with no or limited head coaching experience have been successful at other P6 programs now, and in the past.

Ben is the CEO of the basketball program and is in control of every aspect of it, just like PJ is in football, and Motzko is in hockey. Does the administration deserve praise for their success? Why does the administration want those programs to be successful and not basketball? If coach P is successful on the women's side, unlike Whalen, that's not because of how coach P operates compared to Whalen? The administration just waved a magic wand and said now coach P will be successful?

The administration isn't recruiting 10 power forwards and no guards. The administration doesn't refuse to use all of the allotted scholarships. The administration isn't choosing assistant coaches or the schedule.

Ben sold himself to the administration on why he's the right person for the job, and why he was going to be successful here. But now we're going to say that the outcome was predetermined, that it's not his fault, and we just need to be ok that he's essentially stealing money and reducing the program to its worst state in history?

It's ridiculous to blame this on anyone else other than Ben Johnson.

So then it wasn't Tim Brewster's fault and all of PJ's success is attributable to the Administration and Coyle?

There is a very easy line in the sand that counters both of these posts (GWG's is far more thoughtful, but they both get at the same idea):

did the AD hire a guy who had never been a head coach before?


If yes: then at minimum equal blame falls on the hiring decision, if not more.

If no: then I'm much more sympathetic to these posts.


Brew is a perfect analogy in football. No head coaching experience. Great salesman, had a great vision of what he wanted to do. Couldn't actually do it worth a damn. That's Maturi's fault for getting talked into it.


Fleck on the other hand, not only had previous head coaching experience, but had done the job at that previous spot too.

 

[Dave H]

What? PJ was the right hire and was absolutely qualified for the job.
Brew was arguably LESS qualified than Pitino and has to this day, never held another head coaching job. I wouldn't let that dumbass coach my kids team.

But that is the point. If you can't blame Ben Johnson you can't blame Tim Brewster. It is not his fault the school hired him despite him not being qualified. (I am not actually saying this is true, I am saying that is the excuse people are using to not blame Johnson)

Also if the Administration and Coyle get the blame for hiring Johnson then they have to get the credit for hiring PJ and Motzko.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[Dave H]

Does Johnson have blame for his team being horrendous? Of course he does though I still put the majority of the blame on those who hired him.

The point still stands that it is not the coach’s fault he was hired.

So then it wasn't Tim Brewster's fault? Was it Pitino's?

You realize no one forced these guys to apply for a job they knew they weren't ready for.

 

[Dave H]

There is a very easy line in the sand that counters both of these posts (GWG's is far more thoughtful, but they both get at the same idea):

did the AD hire a guy who had never been a head coach before?


If yes: then at minimum equal blame falls on the hiring decision, if not more.

If no: then I'm much more sympathetic to these posts.


Brew is a perfect analogy in football. No head coaching experience. Great salesman, had a great vision of what he wanted to do. Couldn't actually do it worth a damn. That's Maturi's fault for getting talked into it.


Fleck on the other hand, not only had previous head coaching experience, but had done the job at that previous spot too.

I dont think anyone is saying the Administration doesn't deserve some blame even a lot...but sorry the majority has to go to the coach who failed.

 

[Gophers_4life]

I dont think anyone is saying the Administration doesn't deserve some blame even a lot...but sorry the majority has to go to the coach who failed.

Not when they hired a guy turned down by Montana State and Northern Illinois.

Nope, equal blame at least.

If Fleck had failed here, it would've been on him.

Agree to disagree

 

[Spaulding!No!]

It is over here and the staff is trashing the roster and sched in spite. Please note this is pure speculation.

 

[howeda7]

It'll be the 10 (current without USC and UCLA) with the potential to add SDSU and Gonzaga.

Might be an even better basketball conf?

No. You don't lose UCLA and say it's a better basketball conference. And they will have way less $$ overall. We can certainly outbid them. Plus, Oregon and/or Washington will likely leave for the B1G within 5 years too. The Pac 12 is a mid-major unless/until the merge with the Big 12.

 

[Gophers_4life]

No. You don't lose UCLA and say it's a better basketball conference.

And they will have way less $$ overall. We can certainly outbid them.

Utah "only" getting $40M a year from PAC while Gophers getting $80M a year from Big Ten, means that since both are paying their current head coach around $2M a year, that we are going to offer Craig Smith $5M a year? Or what?

Plus, Oregon and/or Washington will likely leave for the B1G within 5 years too.

That's going to be the deciding factor for Craig Smith in 2024?

The Pac 12 is a mid-major

 

[howeda7]

Utah "only" getting $40M a year from PAC while Gophers getting $80M a year from Big Ten, means that since both are paying their current head coach around $2M a year, that we are going to offer Craig Smith $5M a year? Or what?

They could. He likely won't be in a position to command that. More like $3 million

That's going to be the deciding factor for Craig Smith in 2024?

A coach at a mid-Pac 12 job isn't likely to turn down a B1G job in the year 2024, especially one in his home state that he said was his dream job.

 

[Gophers_4life]

They could. He likely won't be in a position to command that. More like $3 million

I see. It will be impossible for Utah to match such a colossal offer, with their mere $40M PAC distribution and $100M athletics budget?

A coach at a mid-Pac 12 job isn't likely to turn down a B1G job in the year 2024, especially one in his home state that he said was his dream job.

Let it be known! Arizona coach will be coming to Nebraska!

I do believe it was his dream job. Then Coyle didn't even interview him. I recall him saying after staying in Utah that he and his family love it out there, love the dry climate, mountains, etc.

 

[howeda7]

I see. It will be impossible for Utah to match such a colossal offer, with their mere $40M PAC distribution and $100M athletics budget?


Let it be known! Arizona coach will be coming to Nebraska!

I do believe it was his dream job. Then Coyle didn't even interview him. I recall him saying after staying in Utah that he and his family love it out there, love the dry climate, mountains, etc.

Utah is not Arizona in basketball.

Every coach and their wife "love it" wherever they are. Means nothing 99% of the time.