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Go Gophs said:
Yes.

I find it astonishing that people think we can win here without playing this style of basketball. Great defense, great rebounding, efficient offense, take care of the basketball, good shooting helps too.

That is the only way to get it done here until you are able to start getting better recruits to sign the dotted line.

To me, this starts with recruiting basketball players instead of project athletes. A roster with 7-8 real basketball players and then you can fill the rest in with athletes. Those 7-8 might not be able to run with the big boys, but they will play solid, smart, tough ball that competes and fits in nicely when in fact you do hit on a few of these high end athletes or "gas" athletes that can play the game(guys like Carr, Oturo) that can actually take you to the next level.
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I find it astonishing that people think there is a certain style to play in order to win. There are many ways to win anywhere. Like anything, it is how you execute it relative to all things considered: talent level, type of player, player development, culture, etc...
 

builtbadgers said:
Exactly, what you stress gives you the best chance to be great at it. With practice hour limits staffs have to prioritize and the best ones are very efficient and on point as teachers, a gift. Shooting is one aspect players must get up a ton of on their own. Finer points in a team setting, picks,screens,help, position, inbounds defending in bounds, technique,boxing out game prep etc.. all that eats a ton of time. Great coaches are a rare breed. They have a uncommon gift to teach, to connect, to lead. Super hard to find them. A program is fortunate to find one in the programs history.
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This is why Fleck isn't blowing smoke when he says that his primary avocation is teacher, and that's what he loves to do. It shows.
 


Bad Gopher said:
This is why Fleck isn't blowing smoke when he says that his primary avocation is teacher, and that's what he loves to do. It shows.
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Yes. And to be great at it seems like it would be normal but it is rare to be great, just like any profession
 

manderson1984 said:
What are you talking about about?

Last couple classes:
2019: Ihnen and Willis (Transfer eligible this year, put him in any class you want)
2018: Gabe
2017: Jamir Harris
2016: Michael Hurt's profile listed him as a good shooter
2015: Amad Gilbert and Jarvis Johnson was a more than capable 3 pt shooter
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While the jury remains out on Ihnen, Gabe and Willis are not capable 3 point shooters - consistently. That has been proven this season. Obviously, Gabe has 2 more years plus the balance of this season.

My hope is Gabe can shoot the three at ~40% the next two seasons. My contention all along has been Gabe needs to score about 15 a game to enable the team to win more.
 


BarnBurner said:
While the jury remains out on Ihnen, Gabe and Willis are not capable 3 point shooters - consistently. That has been proven this season. Obviously, Gabe has 2 more years plus the balance of this season.

My hope is Gabe can shoot the three at ~40% the next two seasons. My contention all along has been Gabe needs to score about 15 a game to enable the team to win more.
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What do you consider consistent from 3? Shooting 33% from three is not excellent, but it's relatively consistent and would require at minimum a 50% from 2's.

Anyways my point had to do with the poster saying we don't recruit shooters or are willing to take guys who are "less athletic" who shoot. Those guys were all profiled as good/capable shooters coming in.
 

What does up tempo have to do with not playing defense, you can still play up tempo and take efficient quality shots, I don't see what slowing down the offense has to to with anything especially playing good defense.
 

jovs said:
What does up tempo have to do with not playing defense, you can still play up tempo and take efficient quality shots, I don't see what slowing down the offense has to to with anything especially playing good defense.
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Great post. It does not require slowing down if if you players with the skill set to do so. If you do not get those guys it is a disaster to play fast. The slower teams that are great do not intentionally take time, they search for the best shot and they do it in the framework of their own skills in unison of their teammates.
 




The trick is in projecting how players' games will adjust from HS to college. There are guys who are good shooters at the HS level, but put them in a college game against bigger, quicker opponents, and those shots that were open in HS suddenly are being challenged.

I think a lot of fans tend to over-estimate the ability of HS players. You see some kid put up 30 points and think he's a can't-miss college recruit. But, when faced with better competition, some of those HS hot-shots can't adjust or adapt their games.

Even the guy who looks like a good spot-up shooter in HS may not be as effective when facing taller, strong, quicker defenders. If you're a 6'3" SG in HS, and you're used to begin guarded by a 6' defender, it's a big adjustment to suddenly face a 6'3" or 6'4" kid who is just as quick or quicker.

So, one of the keys in recruiting is to look beyond the stats and really evaluate the players' skill level and level of competition.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
The trick is in projecting how players' games will adjust from HS to college. There are guys who are good shooters at the HS level, but put them in a college game against bigger, quicker opponents, and those shots that were open in HS suddenly are being challenged.

I think a lot of fans tend to over-estimate the ability of HS players. You see some kid put up 30 points and think he's a can't-miss college recruit. But, when faced with better competition, some of those HS hot-shots can't adjust or adapt their games.

Even the guy who looks like a good spot-up shooter in HS may not be as effective when facing taller, strong, quicker defenders. If you're a 6'3" SG in HS, and you're used to begin guarded by a 6' defender, it's a big adjustment to suddenly face a 6'3" or 6'4" kid who is just as quick or quicker.

So, one of the keys in recruiting is to look beyond the stats and really evaluate the players' skill level and level of competition.
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As a coach, I think you also need to know the type of personality that you can relate to. In this I mean that if you are an extremely demanding coach that uses aggressive behavior to push your point, you probably shouldn't recruit a kid that will end up being paralyzed by analysis when you scrutinize him. Some kids freeze up when thinking about and trying to meet all the demands a coach is making on them. I think Isaiah Washington may be a recent recruit where he needed to be free of thinking about all the requirements and he needed to play loose. It's very obvious that he was not able to do this with Coach Pitino. Pitino should note that and look to recruit players who can handle his demands.
 

manderson1984 said:
What do you consider consistent from 3? Shooting 33% from three is not excellent, but it's relatively consistent and would require at minimum a 50% from 2's.

Anyways my point had to do with the poster saying we don't recruit shooters or are willing to take guys who are "less athletic" who shoot. Those guys were all profiled as good/capable shooters coming in.
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Near 40%.

In this case, the good/capable profile has not translated to consistent 3 point shooting. If Gabe was hitting near 40%, the team has at least 2 additional wins.
 

BarnBurner said:
Near 40%.

In this case, the good/capable profile has not translated to consistent 3 point shooting. If Gabe was hitting near 40%, the team has at least 2 additional wins.
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40% is excelling. There are only 30 guys in the NCAA that shoot 40% or above and 78 that shoot 35% and above. Agreed that if Gabe or Peyton shot 40% we'd have more wins, but they'd also be in the top 10% of the NCAA.
 



MennoSota said:
As a coach, I think you also need to know the type of personality that you can relate to. In this I mean that if you are an extremely demanding coach that uses aggressive behavior to push your point, you probably shouldn't recruit a kid that will end up being paralyzed by analysis when you scrutinize him. Some kids freeze up when thinking about and trying to meet all the demands a coach is making on them. I think Isaiah Washington may be a recent recruit where he needed to be free of thinking about all the requirements and he needed to play loose. It's very obvious that he was not able to do this with Coach Pitino. Pitino should note that and look to recruit players who can handle his demands.
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Thank Kimani for the IW one. Agreed he was never a great fit and 100% you have to find guys who fit into your culture. We are recruiting with a purpose now more than in the past.
 

benlaur said:
I find it astonishing that people think there is a certain style to play in order to win. There are many ways to win anywhere. Like anything, it is how you execute it relative to all things considered: talent level, type of player, player development, culture, etc...
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Right and when your talent "type" is right around 7-12 ranked in the conference you play in, you have to be able to win without it. Chucking shots and not being able to rebound won't do it when the talent you possess is less than your competition.
 

manderson1984 said:
40% is excelling. There are only 30 guys in the NCAA that shoot 40% or above and 78 that shoot 35% and above. Agreed that if Gabe or Peyton shot 40% we'd have more wins, but they'd also be in the top 10% of the NCAA.
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NEAR 40%
 

Go Gophs said:
I don't get this either. He sucks. If you are bringing someone in here, get an up and comer with that passion for recruiting and hard working likeable guy that will bring energy. Basically, clone PJ Fleck and put a basketball in his hand.
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I have no idea if Saunders can coach or whether he'd be right for the U. But, to me, he is absolutely a PJ Fleck clone with a basketball in his hand. Energetic, charismatic, young ... and talks about culture.
 

manderson1984 said:
What are you talking about about?

Last couple classes:
2019: Ihnen and Willis (Transfer eligible this year, put him in any class you want)
2018: Gabe
2017: Jamir Harris
2016: Michael Hurt's profile listed him as a good shooter
2015: Amad Gilbert and Jarvis Johnson was a more than capable 3 pt shooter
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Basically a who's who of very underwhelming Big Ten players there. Give Gabe an average.

Give me the kid from Lakeville North from Xavier. Give me one of those Bohannen kids that shoot the lights out. Give me a Koenig. Give me a Kevin Lynch. Hell even give me a David Grimm.

We never have a guy like this on the team. Every team needs them.
 

Hates Monikers said:
I have no idea if Saunders can coach or whether he'd be right for the U. But, to me, he is absolutely a PJ Fleck clone with a basketball in his hand. Energetic, charismatic, young ... and talks about culture.
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And hasn't won anywhere he's been. I'm 100% out on hiring him.

PJ killed it at Western Michigan. Give me an overachiever like that. Bringing in Saunders after the cancer that is the Wolves does little to energize a fanbase or recruits IMO.
 

Go Gophs said:
And hasn't won anywhere he's been. I'm 100% out on hiring him.

PJ killed it at Western Michigan. Give me an overachiever like that. Bringing in Saunders after the cancer that is the Wolves does little to energize a fanbase or recruits IMO.
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So you're changing your criteria. You were talking personality before. Now you you want someone who has won at a lower level. We all want that.
 

manderson1984 said:
We are recruiting with a purpose now more than in the past.
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We are?

Pitino takes what he can get. He has no plan, and I cant really blame him for that, because he isnt able to pick and choose. He has to take whomever says yes. That's how we get no bench. Ever.
 

Hates Monikers said:
So you're changing your criteria. You were talking personality before. Now you you want someone who has won at a lower level. We all want that.
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No, won period. All he has known is losing.
 
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PJ coaching types are changing the Head Coach sporting landscape . I am certain a 'PJ FLECK' type will be hired to replace Boudreau.
 

USAF said:
We are?

Pitino takes what he can get. He has no plan, and I cant really blame him for that, because he isnt able to pick and choose. He has to take whomever says yes. That's how we get no bench. Ever.
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Yes, we are only recruiting high character kids who are willing to play defense. It's been pretty obvious in my eyes. It's how the process works. You make offers and the first one to take it gets it. It's not uncommon. The no bench thing has to do with not having a Jr and Sr. class of recruits.
 

Go Gophs said:
Basically a who's who of very underwhelming Big Ten players there. Give Gabe an average.

Give me the kid from Lakeville North from Xavier. Give me one of those Bohannen kids that shoot the lights out. Give me a Koenig. Give me a Kevin Lynch. Hell even give me a David Grimm.

We never have a guy like this on the team. Every team needs them.
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Give me Ty Jerome, Give me Xavier Simpson, Give me Obi Toppin. I agree they missed on those guys, the point was saying we don't recruit them. We have and most haven't hit. Hence the record and the past couple seasons. JP Macuras and Bohannens are not just all over the place. Need to be identified early and made a priority. Still will be plenty of misses even by doing that.

Many programs would say give me an Amir Coffey, give me a Daniel Oturo, give me a Marcus Carr. It goes both ways.
 

BarnBurner said:
NEAR 40%
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What's near? My initial stats were from the NCAA page, but they had a minimum requirement of 140 threes attempted. Even if you lower that to guys who've shot over 100 3's this year, the number of guys who shoot 40% isn't high and a majority of those guys are at blue bloods. Most basketball guys consider a 33-35% 3 pt shooter consistent. 40% and above are elite shooters.
 
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manderson1984 said:
Yes, we are only recruiting high character kids who are willing to play defense. It's been pretty obvious in my eyes. It's how the process works. You make offers and the first one to take it gets it. It's not uncommon. The no bench thing has to do with not having a Jr and Sr. class of recruits.
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lol.

Good lord. Take off the maroon colored glasses. Jeebus.
 

manderson1984 said:
What's near? My initial stats were from the NCAA page, but they had a minimum requirement of 140 threes attempted. Even if you lower that to guys who've shot over 100 3's this year, the number of guys who shoot 40% isn't high and a majority of those guys are at blue bloods. Most basketball goods consider a 33-35% 3 pt shooter consistent. 40% and above are elite shooters.
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i was suprised to see not a single one of those guys shooting over 40% are from a blue blood. Heck not even 1 of the top 78 that are shooting

Hurt is shooting at 40% but he has taken less then 100 3's.

how about the guy from Mcneese state, Dru Kuxhausen, he is 2nd in the nation on 3pt%, he has taken 209 3's and has made 101 of them! dang
 

USAF said:
lol.

Good lord. Take off the maroon colored glasses. Jeebus.
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Lol you should put some on with your negativity.
I think the Oturo, Gabe, Omersa, Carr, and Willis class was good and shows direction. I also think Williams and Ihnen will be fine. We have Mashburn Jr. who defends and plays smart from reports as well as a late bloomer in Mitchell. How is that maroon glasses by thinking those are good classes?
 

Gophs24 said:
i was suprised to see not a single one of those guys shooting over 40% are from a blue blood. Heck not even 1 of the top 78 that are shooting

Hurt is shooting at 40% but he has taken less then 100 3's.

how about the guy from Mcneese state, Dru Kuxhausen, he is 2nd in the nation on 3pt%, he has taken 209 3's and has made 101 of them! dang
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Exactly, numbers are down with the new line too and a lot of kids leaving early, great shooters in college are hard to find. McNese State thing was crazy as was Barlow imo. Didn’t think he was that lights out in HS, but here we are.
 

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