I've Seen Enough

This is a reply to both this post and the one where you don't see how anyone can defend Pitino. Let me start with this, I think ....at the end of the season (which is not yet) if we don't make the NCAAs it will be a more than defensible position to fire Pitino. I would not gripe about that at all and I have been behind him all the way.

Here is my view and it is why I defend him: The fact of the matter is that they made a big mistake hiring him in the first place if the plan wasn't for the long run. He was 31 years old, not much experience and he was being handed a below average, older roster and no recruits. He was doomed for early failure in a big way early.

Then he did what a cocky 31 year old coach who thinks he is going to be great might do. He went for the moon in recruiting his first full recruiting year and fell on his face and got a bunch of fill ins and reaches. The next year he got a really solid class but Dorsey killed it. So his first three years put him right on the hot seat.

Since then he has improved quite a bit in my view, though the problems of depth and shooting are indeed there. His record since the first three years right up to the moment is 30-39 or .435 which is at or above the program's historical level. He has 2 NCAAs and he had a roster built that would have made it three in a row- no doubt about it. That squad was the best he has had and was 12th ranked before the bad luck started. He was 4-14 that year in the Big Ten with a roster that, even with a sub par performance should have been at least 11-7. With that he'd have been at 37-32 the last 4 years. That would have been historic by program standards and something to build on.

Bottom line: I see a better coach over the last 4 years than the 31 year old they hired at a discount based on his potential. We do not have much depth this year, but the depth is forming for coming years. Williams, Omersa, Mashburn and Mitchell will give us good depth as will Freeman (I like his potential). Carr and Gabe form a really nice back court and hopefully Gabe will refind his shot and confidence. Willis may start although I am hoping we land Walton and Willis comes off the bench.
Ihnen is going to be really good next year. The big question is who the center is. If by chance Oturu stays (and yesterday we saw some reason for it) then we have a really promising team. It isn't as dark as some of you paint it.

If we start all over, I assume we lose Mashburn. I have no idea on Mitchell. But those two are going to be players. Both can shoot and both are athletic. Mashburn is ready to roll. Mitchell needs muscle but is very skilled.
I dont think Freeman, Willis, and Greenlee are Big Ten players. We have been a team without depth at the most important position. Have you seen Mitchell play in a game or just highlights? He may need to develop for a year or 2 but I do think he will be a good player. I am concerned that he thinks he will play on the wing. I love Mashburn game I watched him in a couple EYBL he will be solid but we are looking at a roster with:
Carr
Gabe
Willis
Ihnen
Freeman
Mashburn
Omeras
Williams
Greenlee
Mitchell
Curry
Spring Recruit

On paper that roster isnt winning unless Daniel comes back and I still don’t see a deep run. What is this time identity? We can’t shoot at all and have to play our top guys 38+ min a game to give us a chance to win. We have 0 depth in 7 years even the best teams that was the issue under Pitino
 

blah blah blah. Would'a done this, should'a done that, could'a done whatever I say. Bad luck. Getting better. Not his fault. Next year!! The bench that provides nothing this year, well, all those guys will be fantastic next year. OUR recruits will be fantastic, but no other B1G team will have any freshmen.

Lather, rinse, repeat. Do you have this post stored somewhere, so you can just copy and paste as needed?
When all you have is hope it’s what you try and sell.

Without a NCAA bid or at least a NIT run to finish this season good luck to the AD trying to sell hope after 7 years to the majority of the fan base.
 

blah blah blah. Would'a done this, should'a done that, could'a done whatever I say. Bad luck. Getting better. Not his fault. Next year!! The bench that provides nothing this year, well, all those guys will be fantastic next year. OUR recruits will be fantastic, but no other B1G team will have any freshmen.

Lather, rinse, repeat. Do you have this post stored somewhere, so you can just copy and paste as needed?

Thanks for the hard hitting insight. I appreciate you not hitting poor @bga1 over the head with the usual "we should just hire a good coach to win all the games" wisdom.
 

Thanks for the hard hitting insight. I appreciate you not hitting poor @bga1 over the head with the usual "we should just hire a good coach to win all the games" wisdom.
What we SHOULD do is TRY to hire a good coach.

We dont have one.

What we SHOULDN'T do is cling with a death grip to the notion that we DO have one, and the problem is nasty posters on a message board.
 

What we SHOULD do is TRY to hire a good coach.

We dont have one.

What we SHOULDN'T do is cling with a death grip to the notion that we DO have one, and the problem is nasty posters on a message board.

I'm proud of you. Admitting you have a problem is the first step in fixing it.
 



I dont think Freeman, Willis, and Greenlee are Big Ten players. We have been a team without depth at the most important position. Have you seen Mitchell play in a game or just highlights? He may need to develop for a year or 2 but I do think he will be a good player. I am concerned that he thinks he will play on the wing. I love Mashburn game I watched him in a couple EYBL he will be solid but we are looking at a roster with:
Carr
Gabe
Willis
Ihnen
Freeman
Mashburn
Omeras
Williams
Greenlee
Mitchell
Curry
Spring Recruit

On paper that roster isnt winning unless Daniel comes back and I still don’t see a deep run. What is this time identity? We can’t shoot at all and have to play our top guys 38+ min a game to give us a chance to win. We have 0 depth in 7 years even the best teams that was the issue under Pitino
I agree as I don't think Willis is a good Big Ten starter. I have not seen Mitchell play- just highlights but you can see the shot, you can see the ability to move and get up in the air and you can also see that he is still rail thin. But I like him a lot. Considering the improvement we have seen in Ihnen, just during the season adding weight/muscle and learning defense, I don't know why Mitchell cannot do the same.

I think Freeman is going to be very similar to John Thomas. A bruiser on the boards who will have to develop some skills around the bucket and footwork. I like his future. We need Walton or another SF in the spring who can shoot and a transfer center and we would be fine next year- even without Oturu. Maybe a new coach could talk Mashburn and Mitchell into coming here, recruit a transfer or two and all would be well. Who knows!??
 

blah blah blah. Would'a done this, should'a done that, could'a done whatever I say. Bad luck. Getting better. Not his fault. Next year!! The bench that provides nothing this year, well, all those guys will be fantastic next year. OUR recruits will be fantastic, but no other B1G team will have any freshmen.

Lather, rinse, repeat. Do you have this post stored somewhere, so you can just copy and paste as needed?
Right back at you. blah, blah, blah. Rinse lather repeat. If you don't like rinse lather repeat then why do you continue to do it?
 

On paper that roster isnt winning unless Daniel comes back and I still don’t see a deep run. What is this time identity? We can’t shoot at all and have to play our top guys 38+ min a game to give us a chance to win. We have 0 depth in 7 years even the best teams that was the issue under Pitino

I disagree. If Oturu comes back, they should be expected to be a top 5 B1G team next season. They are not that far away this season, and don't lose much production if Oturu stays.

This is another reason why I really want Craig Smith. He has immediately improved his teams win total in his first season at every stop. He can take this roster and win next year.
 



Thanks for the hard hitting insight.

LOL Touche

There is nobody here that is delusional about how great of coach that Pitino has shown himself to be. He has not shown he is a great coach- at least not yet. First 6 years in the BigTen: 7th, 10th, 13th, 4th, 7th and this year probably, hopefully 7th??? (with the first year or two only having 12 teams in conf which makes those years a bit worse). In any case you probably make the case that he is a middle of the pack coach in the Big Ten - probably averaging 8th, maybe 9th?

This means 5ish teams and coaches looking at his record from beneath him and 8ish from above him in one of the best conferences in College basketball. This probably puts him in a "good coach overall" category in my book but not enough to win in the big ten and not yet up to my standards. The question is - can he develop into one? Can he get a good year to get some momentum with recruiting?

Alot will depend on the finish this year. If the team tanks the rest of the games the decision will probably be easy(I dont think this will happen). If they win half the games we probably finish 8th to 9th and Coyle has a gut-wrenching type decision probably based on recruiting prospects. If he wins the remaining games we could finish has high as 4th or 5th (probably not that likely in my mind).

Where does that leave us? We are either going to see some good basketball coming up this year or next under Pitino or we will see a new coach. The success of the new coach is probably 50/50 being either better or worse than Pitino in 7 years. Does this give anyone anywhere with Maroon and Gold in their blood any warm fuzzies? Not likely. This is not a great situation for the faithful no matter how you slice it.

Right now the best outcome is ripping off 6 strait wins and making an impact in the Big Ten tournament, having a solid run in the tourney, and having an even better year next year.

Pitino and the players does deserve one thing right now - support until the end of the season by the fans. Look forward to seeing you loud and proud at a game USAF.
 

The single largest flaw has been not establishing a identity from day one. That is what you recruit too. That is what your known for, that is what you hang your hat on everyday. What is the program ?
Do you think Pitino knows that developing an identity is important? Do you think that he thinks he is developing an identity and he's just not doing a good job of it? Serious question.
 

Do you think Pitino knows that developing an identity is important? Do you think that he thinks he is developing an identity and he's just not doing a good job of it? Serious question.
As much as I hassle built he is right on this one. The identity or "vision" is lacking. For example, Fleck (and a Bennett on the basketball side) and others push a vision of growing them physically, mentally, spiritually, on field/court, off court, in life in general. What does the Basketball program do here in MN?

There is a lack of understanding on my part on exactly what this is. I can see how tight the team is and that counts for something and it is there but there is a lack of ability in communicating it. Marketing 101 and I feel like we are kind of failing on it. I am not on the family recruiting meetings and he has gotten some solid kids. Be nice to see him/MN up the game on this side.
 

Do you think Pitino knows that developing an identity is important? Do you think that he thinks he is developing an identity and he's just not doing a good job of it? Serious question.
He knows it is important and mentioned it in year 7 ! In this conference is was about instilling a defensive toughness with high character kids from day one. Taking good shots, taking care of the ball, contesting every shot, finishing a defensive possession with a rebound. Doing this day one, even losing would set the table for the kinds of recruits that are all in. It always baffles me when coaches come into this conference talking press, uptempo instead of foundational. It has never worked yet, anywhere. It is possible it can work if you recruit at the top level and get those kids but if you do not you better find kids that know how to play. This team in year 7 has some of the best traits , better staff etc.. great character but i expected defense that would be top 20 and if it was we would not be 12-12.
 



Do you think Pitino knows that developing an identity is important? Do you think that he thinks he is developing an identity and he's just not doing a good job of it? Serious question.
Serious answer: I think if you ask the vast majority of coaches, they'd go on and on about identity and style and tactics and strategy. I've found that particularly true of the great ones--coaches that have something to hang their hat on. I mean, didn't Dick Bennett write a book?

I follow this team closely, and I haven't heard Pitino declare anything of this sort since he first took the job and said they were going to shoot from the perimeter on offense and defend full-court on defense for 40 minutes. The only thing I've heard from him since has been vague referenced to "tempo" and "style of play" and defending without fouling (duh).

I fully expect other posters to reply with what they think are the team's identities and styles, but I'd like to hear the coach gush about his program and the things they do and the way they do it.
 

Do you think Pitino knows that developing an identity is important? Do you think that he thinks he is developing an identity and he's just not doing a good job of it? Serious question.
He knows. If you recall when he came here he said what he wanted to be. He wanted to press and run, get deflections and steals. He believed he could recruit to that, but he wasn't able to. I believe he has switched the identity to solid defense (which I think has been better the past few years) and on offense it is post shots and threes for the most part. I think he is in the process of trying to improve recruiting in the area of getting more natural shooters and more length. I can see it coming and I see that he does a pretty good job attempting to augment what the players he has are able to do.

My guess is that if the guards were shooting well and we were sitting at 8-6 or 9-5 as we easily could be- no one would be complaining about the identity of the team. It is a fine line.
 

He knows. If you recall when he came here he said what he wanted to be. He wanted to press and run, get deflections and steals. He believed he could recruit to that, but he wasn't able to. I believe he has switched the identity to solid defense (which I think has been better the past few years) and on offense it is post shots and threes for the most part. I think he is in the process of trying to improve recruiting in the area of getting more natural shooters and more length. I can see it coming and I see that he does a pretty good job attempting to augment what the players he has are able to do.

My guess is that if the guards were shooting well and we were sitting at 8-6 or 9-5 as we easily could be- no one would be complaining about the identity of the team. It is a fine line.
It is not a fine line in the wider lens view of 7 years. People still can not look at this program and say what is the one thing we are known for.
 

As much as I hassle built he is right on this one. The identity or "vision" is lacking. For example, Fleck (and a Bennett on the basketball side) and others push a vision of growing them physically, mentally, spiritually, on field/court, off court, in life in general. What does the Basketball program do here in MN?

There is a lack of understanding on my part on exactly what this is. I can see how tight the team is and that counts for something and it is there but there is a lack of ability in communicating it. Marketing 101 and I feel like we are kind of failing on it. I am not on the family recruiting meetings and he has gotten some solid kids. Be nice to see him/MN up the game on this side.

Hard to have a vision when 3 of your 5 starters are transfers and your bench is basically worthless.
 

Hard to have a vision when 3 of your 5 starters are transfers and your bench is basically worthless.
The vision is not about the makeup of the starters or how well they play. it is the unbreakable rules that, may not, but often transcend success on the court.

"Work hard, play hard" might be an attitude that your construction boss has for the team - for example. Everyone knows what to expect and can see the future under that vision. You can expect to work hard and you can expect time to blow off some steam. Maybe builds some cohisiveness and esprit de corps. New guys know what to expect and embrace it or avoid working there. Breaks down when you let that lazy guy NOT work hard but he still is on the job and gets the benefits. Monson was guilty of something like this when he got Humphries run the show. Destroyed the team - and the fans that year - man was that NOT fun.

I would like to see the vision for the Coach of MN basketball brand this (like Pitino's Row the Boat) and enforce it. Gives recruits a focal point and the abillity to more easily visualize themselves in the program. Easier for family to buy in. Pitino is a smart guy and not completely unaware of this.
 

It is not a fine line in the wider lens view of 7 years. People still can not look at this program and say what is the one thing we are known for.
2 things that I don't think can be disputed nor do I think you would
1. He is improving
2. His initial vision was not workable and he has changed it- I think that's laudable.

I am looking at the coach he is becoming, not the whole 7 years, because, face it he wasn't ready for this. There was nothing going in his favor when he accepted this job. It was too tough of a job for a kid 31 years old with one year of D1 experience. That said I think he is a much better coach than the one we hired, but he still needs a little better players in a few spots.

You like this roster and in fact you have said that you like how it is put together. None of us could have expected that Gabe and Willis would have shot his badly in the Big Ten. That's the difference maker. I don't have my finger on the exact stats right at the moment but the team is shooting 28% in Big Ten play from 3 point range and I have to believe both Gabe and Willis are at or below that number which is unreal considering their ability to shoot it. Gabe especially is missing wide open shots and sometimes badly.
 

The vision is not about the makeup of the starters or how well they play. it is the unbreakable rules that, may not, but often transcend success on the court.

"Work hard, play hard" might be an attitude that your construction boss has for the team - for example. Everyone knows what to expect and can see the future under that vision. You can expect to work hard and you can expect time to blow off some steam. Maybe builds some cohisiveness and esprit de corps. New guys know what to expect and embrace it or avoid working there. Breaks down when you let that lazy guy NOT work hard but he still is on the job and gets the benefits. Monson was guilty of something like this when he got Humphries run the show. Destroyed the team - and the fans that year - man was that NOT fun.

I would like to see the vision for the Coach of MN basketball brand this (like Pitino's Row the Boat) and enforce it. Gives recruits a focal point and the abillity to more easily visualize themselves in the program. Easier for family to buy in. Pitino is a smart guy and not completely unaware of this.

Prove that he is not doing any of that!

Are other schools in the Big 10 having a vision that Minnesota is not?

I'd say the vision is to get better players in here along with better coaching, but maybe that vision is too simplistic.
 
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Prove that he is not doing any of that!

Prove that he is not? How do you prove a negative?

I could text him right now and ask him how his home visits are going. Having been at his press conference when he took the job and at or watched most games and press conferences since then I think he has some sort of vision. I have never heard it summed up and branded (which is what I requested).
 

Prove that he is not? How do you prove a negative?

I could text him right now and ask him how his home visits are going. Having been at his press conference when he took the job and at or watched most games and press conferences since then I think he has some sort of vision. I have never heard it summed up and branded (which is what I requested).

Well, that's what you want him to do, so he must not be doing it.

I'm wondering how you know he's not doing it?

Maybe you could relate to some other big 10 teams. What are they doing that we are not in terms of having a vision?

Who in big 10 basketball has a "row the boat" motto or vision like that? I'm thinking none!
 

Beilein was practically a home run hire when Michigan grabbed him years ago: a veteran coach even at the time who'd had success at every level. That's one alternative, and they're out there: guys with impeccable credentials and reputations who simply know how to coach basketball but might not be the sexy flavor of the day. I'm sure builtbadgers could give you a list off the top of his head. I'd put Scott Nagy in this category.
He's done well at Wright State. I don't see him wowing a lot of our local recruits though and he's no spring chicken anymore. Still I wouldn't hate it. He's sort of in the Ben Jacobsen category. He could have moved up from SDSU a long time ago but chose not to. Now it sort of feels too late.
 

It always baffles me when coaches come into this conference talking press, uptempo instead of foundational. It has never worked yet, anywhere. It is possible it can work if you recruit at the top level and get those kids but if you do not you better find kids that know how to play.

False. Michigan state has always played this game. They push the ball hard and always have. The difference is they play solid defense and have a foundation of being one of the best rebounding teams in the Big Ten.

That said. I agree with you. Playing good defense, rebounding hard and not giving away possessions is the best way to win in this conference. It helps to have some shooters too. I am not sure why more emphasis isn't placed on bringing in a few guys that can make it rain every year. Every team needs a JJ Reddick type that if they are open it is going down. Don't have to be as talented as he is, but when an open 3 is there, we need a few guys that can knock it down at a high rate.
 

The kid from Lakeville north that went to Xavier would be a great example of this type of player.
 

Serious answer: I think if you ask the vast majority of coaches, they'd go on and on about identity and style and tactics and strategy. I've found that particularly true of the great ones--coaches that have something to hang their hat on. I mean, didn't Dick Bennett write a book?

I follow this team closely, and I haven't heard Pitino declare anything of this sort since he first took the job and said they were going to shoot from the perimeter on offense and defend full-court on defense for 40 minutes. The only thing I've heard from him since has been vague referenced to "tempo" and "style of play" and defending without fouling (duh).

I fully expect other posters to reply with what they think are the team's identities and styles, but I'd like to hear the coach gush about his program and the things they do and the way they do it.

Agreed. I’ve heard Pitino say, “I talked with the team about determining an identity.”

Two years in a row, during rough patches, he has brought up identity and leaving it to the players to determine their strengths and accentuate them.

Coach... that is your job. Before a recruit steps on campus, you should know why you are recruiting them and why they fit the identity that YOU are trying to establish.

Michigan State is physical and hangs their hat on rebounding and second-chance opportunities. They are rarely outrebounded and never out-"toughed." They depend on a PG who can push the ball, play defense, and set up teammates for success. A shooting PG is a plus but not a necessity.

Wisconsin depends on players with above-average basketball IQs. They will never be the more athletic team on the court but can make up for it by limiting turnovers, getting open shots and playing exceptional team defense. Expectations for newcomers are set on the front end, and roles grow organically throughout their 4 (maybe 5) years.

What are the gophers? How would you describe our team over the past seven years? All I can come up with is "inconsistent both offensively and defensively."

Every year the roster's strengths/identity is a crapshoot. Every season there is seemingly one player who transfers out because they are not a good fit. In the short-term, these transfers may be seen as positives as it makes room for a "better fit." In the long-run, these blunders compound as we never get the benefit of seeing guys develop their game after maturing physically and adapting to BIG10 basketball.

I think Fleck has exposed Pitino a bit. Fleck came in here with a laser-focused vision, never strayed from that, even if it meant short-term failure. He stuck to his guns, and the results followed. There is no master plan behind Gopher MBB. If there is, please enlighten me.

I was okay with hiring a young Pitino and letting him take his lumps early on. I think we all figured his last name and the immediate circle would lead to a recruiting boon, and the "x's and o's" would come with time. He has got some excellent individual recruits but has never been able to recruit a complete roster. We have a potential lottery pick on our team and are iffy to make the NIT because we have nobody that can be counted on beyond him and maybe Carr. That's on Pitino.

You can say there's been back luck, and unfortunate injuries, blah blah blah. When the excuses become the norm year in and year out, it is beyond back luck, it is reality. It's really not that hard to be a tournament team when you play in a major conference. You can be pretty pedestrian and still sneak in. It sucks that our measuring stick of success is being a 10-seed with 0 chance of making a run.
 
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2 things that I don't think can be disputed nor do I think you would
1. He is improving
2. His initial vision was not workable and he has changed it- I think that's laudable.

I am looking at the coach he is becoming, not the whole 7 years, because, face it he wasn't ready for this. There was nothing going in his favor when he accepted this job. It was too tough of a job for a kid 31 years old with one year of D1 experience. That said I think he is a much better coach than the one we hired, but he still needs a little better players in a few spots.

You like this roster and in fact you have said that you like how it is put together. None of us could have expected that Gabe and Willis would have shot his badly in the Big Ten. That's the difference maker. I don't have my finger on the exact stats right at the moment but the team is shooting 28% in Big Ten play from 3 point range and I have to believe both Gabe and Willis are at or below that number which is unreal considering their ability to shoot it. Gabe especially is missing wide open shots and sometimes badly.
We already know the coach Pitino is. He has had more than enough time to prove it.

There isn’t a program in the B1G that would take Pitino over their current coach. Yet somehow the U should just keep waiting this out because of the hope it might just work at some point.
 

2 things that I don't think can be disputed nor do I think you would
1. He is improving
2. His initial vision was not workable and he has changed it- I think that's laudable.

I am looking at the coach he is becoming, not the whole 7 years, because, face it he wasn't ready for this. There was nothing going in his favor when he accepted this job. It was too tough of a job for a kid 31 years old with one year of D1 experience. That said I think he is a much better coach than the one we hired, but he still needs a little better players in a few spots.

You like this roster and in fact you have said that you like how it is put together. None of us could have expected that Gabe and Willis would have shot his badly in the Big Ten. That's the difference maker. I don't have my finger on the exact stats right at the moment but the team is shooting 28% in Big Ten play from 3 point range and I have to believe both Gabe and Willis are at or below that number which is unreal considering their ability to shoot it. Gabe especially is missing wide open shots and sometimes badly.
To me, the best coaches demand a defense that wins games when shots are not falling. We have a 48th ranked defense. We have been top 25th one year in 7. I talked about a identity, not a vision. We are not known as anything. MSU is a elite program, they get better players, they get guys that can rebound and outlet and secondary break, those last two are very refined skills. They push it on opportunity because they have the skill. They have also had for decades a physical and mental toughness that he recruits to.A vision is something you can tell a recruit how you see him being used. A identity is something players already know about a program and have a attraction for. I do like this roster and the players but they should not be 12-12. The conference is brutal but it does not have a dominant team and every game is there for the taking.
 

This is kind of where I'm at with Pitino. I think he knows that he needs to build an identity and culture. I think he realized after the first couple years that run and gun wasn't going to be easy and wasn't going to lead to wins. He changed what the identity was going to be. I would assume he talks about this stuff in private with the team. I also agree he should make it more public. Building an identity and leading the way Fleck did is not an easy thing to do. It's possible that Pitino just hasn't figured out how to do it yet? It's been enough time to see what he can do, I think he's improved over the years, I'm not completely opposed to a new coach at the end of season, I am worried about what would happen in the following years if that happens. I know that's shortsighted, but it's a still a concern.
 




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