I'm a dumbsh!t

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touchdownvikings

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I don't understand basketball the way I do football (I understand FB quite well). And I've not watched a whole Gophers basketball game until this one.

That said, here's what I saw tonight:

(1) This team does not get inside.

(2) This team does not rebound.

(3) This team does not fight through screens - at all.

...And, yet, they won. So what do I know? I'm a dumbsh!t.
 


That's why Pitt is 2-5. I will say, like the coaching staff, think they'll win back a lot of the fans as their tenure continues. Well coached team, without top end talent. Battle looks like a nice surprise. Willis is playing like this is more his team. Still don't think it'll be pretty this year, but you have to give it to them. They play hard.
 

touchdownvikings said:
I don't understand basketball the way I do football (I understand FB quite well). And I've not watched a whole Gophers basketball game until this one.

That said, here's what I saw tonight:

(1) This team does not get inside.

(2) This team does not rebound.

(3) This team does not fight through screens - at all.

...And, yet, they won. So what do I know? I'm a dumbsh!t.
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Especially on offense. Even as I sit in my chair my body English takes me to the boards. But not these guys. Nope...
 

touchdownvikings said:
I don't understand basketball the way I do football (I understand FB quite well). And I've not watched a whole Gophers basketball game until this one.

That said, here's what I saw tonight:

(1) This team does not get inside.

(2) This team does not rebound.

(3) This team does not fight through screens - at all.

...And, yet, they won. So what do I know? I'm a dumbsh!t.
Click to expand...

1. They don't have the personnel to get inside. Curry does not have the lift to score effectively from the block and Daniels does not have the skill to do so. The offense is constructed smartly to give space to the guards and wings to get some cuts to the basket which you saw at times tonight.

2. They don't have the personnel to rebound. Again this is a smart coaching decision. We aren't going to win many battles for offensive rebounds, so it's smart to send everybody back when the shot goes up as we do. That allows us to set our defense and limit transition opportunities. This is a common strategy in the modern NBA as well. On nights we shoot well, we'll be able to stay in games...but poor shooting games will get ugly because we won't have the second chance opportunities.

3. I'd kind of disagree here. I think this team grinds on the defensive end. Defensively our issue was primarily having nobody to match up with Pitt's big man...and we'll see a lot better bigs going forward.
 



touchdownvikings said:
I don't understand basketball the way I do football (I understand FB quite well). And I've not watched a whole Gophers basketball game until this one.

That said, here's what I saw tonight:

(1) This team does not get inside.

(2) This team does not rebound.

(3) This team does not fight through screens - at all.

...And, yet, they won. So what do I know? I'm a dumbsh!t.
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But did you see how many high fives and butt slaps the Gophers had?
 

The post players don’t rebound much, however, the guards help rebound more than under Pitino.
 

touchdownvikings said:
I don't understand basketball the way I do football (I understand FB quite well). And I've not watched a whole Gophers basketball game until this one.

That said, here's what I saw tonight:

(1) This team does not get inside.

(2) This team does not rebound.

(3) This team does not fight through screens - at all.

...And, yet, they won. So what do I know? I'm a dumbsh!t.
Click to expand...

This is one of the weirdest ones for all of us who grew up playing basketball. Thanks to analytics, they've really broken down hat the cost/benefit of crashing the offensive glass really favors not crashing and getting back on defense.

Rebounding margin is just not as important as we all thought it was growing up.
 



touchdownvikings said:
I don't understand basketball the way I do football (I understand FB quite well). And I've not watched a whole Gophers basketball game until this one.

That said, here's what I saw tonight:

(1) This team does not get inside.

(2) This team does not rebound.

(3) This team does not fight through screens - at all.

...And, yet, they won. So what do I know? I'm a dumbsh!t.
Click to expand...
This was actually their most effective offensive rebounding game this season. The box score shows 6 offensive rebounds. They came into the game with only 17 ORBs in 5 games. The were only out-rebounded on the offensive end by 1.

This team is smart, efficient, and opportunistic at rebounding as shown by the number of RBs the guards have. They play to their strengths (limitations?) and try to limit the ticky tacky fouls.
 

touchdownvikings said:
I don't understand basketball the way I do football (I understand FB quite well). And I've not watched a whole Gophers basketball game until this one.

That said, here's what I saw tonight:

(1) This team does not get inside.

(2) This team does not rebound.

(3) This team does not fight through screens - at all.

...And, yet, they won. So what do I know? I'm a dumbsh!t.
Click to expand...
Regarding #2 at the beginning of the telecast it showed we were 9th in the country for defensive rebounding at 31.9/per game - so it appears we are strategically rebounding. Ben is smart and focuses on our assets and plays to them - shows the stark difference between him and Pitino who just rolled the ball 🏀 on the court and hoped players would make plays - fun for Gus Mack team, but horrible for a P5 coach

also don’t be too hard on yourself - we got us a big brained coach now, so it takes some tim getting use to
😀
 
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Bob_Loblaw said:
This is one of the weirdest ones for all of us who grew up playing basketball. Thanks to analytics, they've really broken down hat the cost/benefit of crashing the offensive glass really favors not crashing and getting back on defense.

Rebounding margin is just not as important as we all thought it was growing up.
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Except that we won this game on a "where did he come from?" offensive rebound.... Maybe the stats or importance change depending on where (behind by one) and when (last few seconds) you are in the game??
 

GoldGoldGold said:
Except that we won this game on a "where did he come from?" offensive rebound.... Maybe the stats or importance change depending on where (behind by one) and when (last few seconds) you are in the game??
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Yeah, at a moment when there is ZERO benefit to getting back on defense. It's a cost/benefit. The idea isn't that you NEVER crash the rebounds, just throughout the game, statistically, it is better to not crash the offensive rebounds and rather to get back on defense and get set. It's a defense and to a lesser extent a foul issue.

Yes, when you absolutely need points, of course you crash the glass.
 



GoldGoldGold said:
Except that we won this game on a "where did he come from?" offensive rebound.... Maybe the stats or importance change depending on where (behind by one) and when (last few seconds) you are in the game??
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No offense but kind of seems like common sense here. If you are down 1 with 7 seconds left you are going to crash the offensive glass to get the basket. Was a heck of a play by Loewe to stay involved, the inbounder often gets "lost" by the defense on plays like that and he knew right where to go in order to be in position for the put back.

As others have mentioned, Johnson has made the decision to not go after offensive rebounds in favor of sending guys back on defense. And so far that strategy has worked pretty dang well. Keeps teams from getting a lot of fast break opportunities and makes them work to get points.

The size mismatches are only going to get worse as the season goes on but awesome to see them gut out a tough win last night to keep the winning streak going for a little while longer.
 

MNVCGUY said:
No offense but kind of seems like common sense here. If you are down 1 with 7 seconds left you are going to crash the offensive glass to get the basket. Was a heck of a play by Loewe to stay involved, the inbounder often gets "lost" by the defense on plays like that and he knew right where to go in order to be in position for the put back.

As others have mentioned, Johnson has made the decision to not go after offensive rebounds in favor of sending guys back on defense. And so far that strategy has worked pretty dang well. Keeps teams from getting a lot of fast break opportunities and makes them work to get points.

The size mismatches are only going to get worse as the season goes on but awesome to see them gut out a tough win last night to keep the winning streak going for a little while longer.
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I think Built said it best in another thread: other teams may take advantage of this roster, but not the principles or the program. We should be watching for the principles being put into action, and mentally project the outcome as the roster begins to be filled with other players in the future. ...I don't know enough about basketball to do that well. But I think that's really what we should be doing, if only I knew how!
 

touchdownvikings said:
I think Built said it best in another thread: other teams may take advantage of this roster, but not the principles or the program. We should be watching for the principles being put into action, and mentally project the outcome as the roster begins to be filled with other players in the future. ...I don't know enough about basketball to do that well. But I think that's really what we should be doing, if only I knew how!
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This is a great concept but Ben and Co have to prove they can get good enough players here to win games in the conference. Maybe this team surprises but when Eddie Winslow dominates you--you're in trouble once you hit conference play.
“The best laid schemes o' mice an' men Gang aft a-gley.”
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
This is one of the weirdest ones for all of us who grew up playing basketball. Thanks to analytics, they've really broken down hat the cost/benefit of crashing the offensive glass really favors not crashing and getting back on defense.

Rebounding margin is just not as important as we all thought it was growing up.
Click to expand...
Ya sure about that?
 

GoldenUMNGopher said:
Ya sure about that?
Click to expand...
Exactly. Unfortunately ohio state exposed our weaknesses last night big time. We're the worst rebounding team in the nation and after watching last night I believe it. We have nobody down low and in second half that was obviously ohio states gameplan to go inside. They scored down low whenever they wanted and we didnt have an answer. Nothing against gophers and ben johnson. Going into this year we knew this was gonna be a problem, especially in the big ten. Curry obviously helps! It's a process. We have payne coming in next year and hopefully hit the portal too.
 


gophereric30 said:
Exactly. Unfortunately ohio state exposed our weaknesses last night big time. We're the worst rebounding team in the nation and after watching last night I believe it. We have nobody down low and in second half that was obviously ohio states gameplan to go inside. They scored down low whenever they wanted and we didnt have an answer. Nothing against gophers and ben johnson. Going into this year we knew this was gonna be a problem, especially in the big ten. Curry obviously helps! It's a process. We have payne coming in next year and hopefully hit the portal too.
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well injuries to curry and fox haven't helped
 

gophereric30 said:
Exactly. Unfortunately ohio state exposed our weaknesses last night big time. We're the worst rebounding team in the nation and after watching last night I believe it. We have nobody down low and in second half that was obviously ohio states gameplan to go inside. They scored down low whenever they wanted and we didnt have an answer. Nothing against gophers and ben johnson. Going into this year we knew this was gonna be a problem, especially in the big ten. Curry obviously helps! It's a process. We have payne coming in next year and hopefully hit the portal too.
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Exactly what I was going to say. Knew that rebounding was going to be an issue. OSU simply exploited our weakness. Honestly....it's a surprise that the Gophers managed to keep it as close as they did. But the ability to score at will on the inside was basically going to make it impossible for the Gophers to win. And the offensive rebounds.....there was a point early in the second half where the Buckeyes had THREE straight offensive trips with a missed shot that they rebounded and put back in for an easy layup. Three. That's outrageous to have that happen.

Again...we knew that the interior was going to be a problem this year against bigger teams. Missing Curry is a problem right now. He has done a really good job of not letting opposing big men bullying him down low. And he has developed a very good ability to box out.....which it appears nobody else on the team knows how to do. Really....even with our size deficiency....if guys would simply box out on shots....we would have limited their second chances. But guards on the team with the exception of Willis....just stand and watched the ball and let OSU players run right passed them, unopposed to the basket. Can't do that. Some of these guys that transferred up just weren't prepared for the physicality of the Big Ten.
 


GoldenUMNGopher said:
Ya sure about that?
Click to expand...
100%.

There is very little correlation to winning (or losing).

In the NBA this season, there 4 of the top 10 teams in rebounding margin would be out of the playoffs today. Additionally, 6 of the bottom 10 teams in rebounding margin would be in the playoffs today.

There are really good teams with great rebounding margins, really bad teams with great rebounding margins and vice versa.
 

Coach J will have to live with the situation this year. As to future years, get TT with the nutrition people and weight/strength coaches in the off-season and do the same with the incoming recruits next year, perhaps picking up a true Center in the portal. Center position needs to be fixed to be successful in the BIG..
 

Gophers1992 said:
I don't think Bob ever claimed that rebounding is meaningless. One game sample doesn't totally disprove everything he is saying.
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If you think last night was an anomaly you havent watched many games this year. It seems to have a pretty tight correlation in Big Ten play outside of the Michgian game.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
100%.

There is very little correlation to winning (or losing).

In the NBA this season, there 4 of the top 10 teams in rebounding margin would be out of the playoffs today. Additionally, 6 of the bottom 10 teams in rebounding margin would be in the playoffs today.

There are really good teams with great rebounding margins, really bad teams with great rebounding margins and vice versa.
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Going to have to disagree from the Gophers big ten games. Not sure why you are comparing NBA to NCAA. Pretty much two separate games.
 

fan of Ray Williams said:
Gophers were actually doing decent on limiting offensive rebounds until Curry was injured.
Since Mississippi State it has been 8, 6, 5, 8, 10 (Illinois), 6, 5, then Curry is hurt and 13, 11, 18
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Not sure why anyone is shocked that we are struggling to rebound on a team that already was at a size disadvantage and is now playing without its leading rebounder.

Unfortunately Ohio State was really able to exploit that last night for a lot of second chance points.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Not sure why anyone is shocked that we are struggling to rebound on a team that already was at a size disadvantage and is now playing without its leading rebounder.

Unfortunately Ohio State was really able to exploit that last night for a lot of second chance points.
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I dont think anyone is shocked that we struggled to rebound. I am alittle surprised that the margin was 48-22. That should never happen. There were plenty of rebounds that we should have gotten that we didnt that had nothing to do with how small we were or how big they were. Just have to work on it and get better. Time to move on!
 


gophereric30 said:
I dont think anyone is shocked that we struggled to rebound. I am alittle surprised that the margin was 48-22. That should never happen. There were plenty of rebounds that we should have gotten that we didnt that had nothing to do with how small we were or how big they were. Just have to work on it and get better. Time to move on!
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Yeah, that stat is actually kind of crazy, especially considering we did make shots. Part of it is also that we didn't turn the ball over much (possessions ended with rebounds for them) and the game was really fast paced (few TOs, few FTs). But yeah, that number is insane.
 

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