Illinois' Shannon charged with Rape

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Dave H said:
I have never heard anyone argue a public university is part of the government. That makes zero sense.

And there is no rule that says U of I has to allow him to play basketball anyways, let alone when he is being charged with a crime.
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Yes, they are.

Do you think a public school is a private entity? Who owns it?
 

Dave H said:
I have never heard anyone argue a public university is part of the government. That makes zero sense.

And there is no rule that says U of I has to allow him to play basketball anyways, let alone when he is being charged with a crime.
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Not defending Shannon - I hope he gets crucified if he did this.

That being said - the U of M is absolutely a government entity. They were chartered as a state "land grant" university in Article 8 of the State Constitution and was to be a government by a board of regents elected by the state legislature. It was (and is) funded by the state, has its own police force and more authority than any local government. Not sure about Illinois but assume they are a similar state university.

That being said: as a quasi government any university has deep pockets, happily would destroy a life without remorse, decisions are made by people with nothing at risk, they are incented to win every time, and if it comes to a trial - the trial is run by more sympathetic government agents from another government entity. Shannon has virtually no chance.
 

The U is supported by tax dollars, but not in any kind of automatic way, like your local school district is.

The U is owned I believe by the Board of Regents? It’s not owned by the State of Minnesota. (Some? All?) Regents are selected by the governor, if I’m recalling correctly? They’re appointed somehow.

Employees of the U are paid by … the U, who have no authority to levy taxes on any resident of the state.


I think it’s a stretch to call it a government entity in a strict sense.

It’s public because it receives tax dollars from the state of MN. That’s the only reason why.
 

Universities are definitely political entities.

Truth & fairness are out the window when politics and huge money lawsuits are involved.
 


Shannon is suspended from team activities because he has been charged with a felony. This isn’t some “Kangaroo Court” Title IX decision handed out by the University without cause. They followed school policy, which TSJ would’ve agreed to, and waited until he was officially charged to suspend him.

Read the actual deposition of what happened, it’s definitely disturbing if the allegations are true.
 
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Gold Vision said:
Shannon is suspended from team activities because he has been charged with a felony. This isn’t some “Kangaroo Court” Title IV decision handed out by the University without cause. They followed school policy, which TSJ would’ve agreed to, and waited until he was officially charged to suspend him.

Read the actual deposition of what happened, it’s definitely disturbing if the allegations are true.
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I didn't say Shannon's suspension was the result of a ruling by a kangaroo court.

Someone asked about the hypothetical situation if he had his scholarship removed and I said that Title IX offices do have a kangaroo court that they use when people are expelled from school/lose their scholarships.

Like I said, I don't think he'll be successful but not because they "followed policy". There are countless corporate or institutional policies that do not pass the Constitutional muster.
 

CPTMidnight said:
That being said: as a quasi government any university has deep pockets, happily would destroy a life without remorse, decisions are made by people with nothing at risk, they are incented to win every time, and if it comes to a trial - the trial is run by more sympathetic government agents from another government entity. Shannon has virtually no chance.
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Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
Step out of line, the man comes, and takes you away...
 




Bob_Loblaw said:
Yes, they are.

Do you think a public school is a private entity? Who owns it?
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No but just because they aren't private doesn't make them part of the government. They are funded by the government yes. The Governor is not in charge of the U of M...

edit: I can see what @CPTMidnight is saying as a quasi government entity. To me that is different than being part of the government. I think we are saying the same thing it is all just semantics on my end cause I am weird :)

double edit: One of my jobs is working in the State College System. We literally are employees of the state. (my check says so!) That is probably where my divide comes in. To me that is being a government entity in my mind.
 
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Gold Vision said:
Shannon is suspended from team activities because he has been charged with a felony. This isn’t some “Kangaroo Court” Title IX decision handed out by the University without cause. They followed school policy, which TSJ would’ve agreed to, and waited until he was officially charged to suspend him.

Read the actual deposition of what happened, it’s definitely disturbing if the allegations are true.
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So .... by the exact same logic, shouldn't he be expelled? These are serious things to be charged with.

I guess I just struggle with, if it's not enough to expel him, why is it enough to suspend his participation (but not his scholarship or any other benefits) on the team?
 

For the same reason police officers are suspended while being investigated. A charge is not a conviction. Suspending him doesn't harm as much if he is exonerated. He will still be in class so he won't be behind, can start practicing right away because he won't need to be re-admitted and the school won't be likely to be sued into oblivion.

If you expel him and you are wrong...well yeah have fun.

(I am not a lawyer I am speaking more in common sense and how it works in academia)

I would rather they suspend him indefinitely and let things play out. If he is still in school though he needs to be on a zero tolerance policy though imho.
 

Why not suspend him from being a student, but not expelled, then? You could even do a special thing of just "refunding by special circumstance" his entire semester. It won't even go on his transcript as Withdrawals, it will just be like he chose not to enroll this semester.

Why does he retain the right to go to school, but must be suspended from an extra-curricular thing at school?
 



He is an admitted student and has not been convicted. He has rights. Those rights do not include playing sports even on scholarship that is a privilege. If the school suspends him and bars him from class they are essentially expelling him and making a judgement. It won't matter what the transcript says you doing that tarnishes him and will definitely get you sued. Imagine how the local news will cover it...you are convicting the kid before a court does and if you are wrong God help you.

We as individuals can judge him as we choose. A school has to deal with way more rules and regulations. To protect itself and to protect him this is the best course of action. His decision to file an injunction is just stupid though.

(again I dont pretend to be a lawyer but I do have a good idea how academia will deal with this)
 

Dave H said:
He is an admitted student and has not been convicted. He has rights. Those rights do not include playing sports even on scholarship that is a privilege. If the school suspends him and bars him from class they are essentially expelling him and making a judgement. It won't matter what the transcript says you doing that tarnishes him and will definitely get you sued. Imagine how the local news will cover it...you are convicting the kid before a court does and if you are wrong God help you.

We as individuals can judge him as we choose. A school has to deal with way more rules and regulations. To protect itself and to protect him this is the best course of action. His decision to file an injunction is just stupid though.

(again I dont pretend to be a lawyer but I do have a good idea how academia will deal with this)
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I have never liked the policy of automatic suspension upon accusation (U of MN policy).

Most of the time, these he-said-she-said accusations turn-out to be greatly exaggerated. Even when charges are filed. Often times charges are filed simply up on accusation despite evidence that proves it's lies. I didn't research this case though.
 
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EasyThere Pilgrim said:
I have never liked the policy of automatic suspension upon accusation (U of MN policy).

Most of the time, these he-said-she-said accusations turn-out to be greatly exaggerated. Even when charges are filed. Often times charges are filed simply up on accusation despite evidence that proves it's lies. I didn't research this case though.
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It's easy to criticize, propose a solution.
 


MplsGopher said:
If you are charged with a serious crime, even if there is no other student at that school who is a victim, can they expel you just for that?

If he had been accused by an Illinois student, then you’d see the Title IX/EOAA type investigation and ruling. But the alleged victim here did not attend the U of Illinois.

Interesting legal/technical difference from what is usually the case with these things.
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If memory serves me, at Minnesota, Reggie Lynch was found responsible for accusations by non-students.

First, charges were dropped. Both by Prosecutors and EOAA. Then, an activist found two other women, that had not filed charges with police. The EOAA office was still able to scope it into their jurisdiction, since Reggie was a Student and thus bound by the code of conduct.

They found against him in at least one of the cases.
 

EasyThere Pilgrim said:
My solution is to not take any punitive action until there is evidence of wrongdoing.

And I wouldn't consider the accusation itself as evidence.
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Like, evidence enough for formal criminal charges?
 

Dave H said:
He is an admitted student and has not been convicted. He has rights. Those rights do not include playing sports even on scholarship that is a privilege. If the school suspends him and bars him from class they are essentially expelling him and making a judgement. It won't matter what the transcript says you doing that tarnishes him and will definitely get you sued. Imagine how the local news will cover it...you are convicting the kid before a court does and if you are wrong God help you.

We as individuals can judge him as we choose. A school has to deal with way more rules and regulations. To protect itself and to protect him this is the best course of action. His decision to file an injunction is just stupid though.

(again I dont pretend to be a lawyer but I do have a good idea how academia will deal with this)
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You’re kind of a natural. I think yo should give law school a try.
 



The U of MN administration self-sabotages our best teams. Our Final Four team...Tubby's NCAA team that was set to add Royce White & Trevor Mbakwe...and Pitino's best team. Our 3 best teams in the last 30 years were all dismantled...with no criminal or NCAA charges needed. Coincidence??

Maybe Illinois is doing the same thing. I haven't done any research on the case. But many in academia/administrations despise men's basketball.
 

atsgopher said:
If memory serves me, at Minnesota, Reggie Lynch was found responsible for accusations by non-students.

First, charges were dropped. Both by Prosecutors and EOAA. Then, an activist found two other women, that had not filed charges with police. The EOAA office was still able to scope it into their jurisdiction, since Reggie was a Student and thus bound by the code of conduct.

They found against him in at least one of the cases.
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I still find it odd that a public institution can have policies that disqualify people from participation for sexual behavior of non minors that was not deemed criminal

This is not a commentary about the Lynch case or any case, it is just something I found surprising that it exists.
I am surprised that a public institution can regulate sexual behavior of adult students beyond what the criminal justice system provides in terms of that.
 

atsgopher said:
If memory serves me, at Minnesota, Reggie Lynch was found responsible for accusations by non-students.

First, charges were dropped. Both by Prosecutors and EOAA. Then, an activist found two other women, that had not filed charges with police. The EOAA office was still able to scope it into their jurisdiction, since Reggie was a Student and thus bound by the code of conduct.

They found against him in at least one of the cases.
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I never knew this. What a mess.
 

EasyThere Pilgrim said:
I mean any kind of evidence other than the accusation itself.
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In this case, the woman submitted to a rape examination at the hospital the next day and the local police investigated and issued an arrest warrant. He is still innocent until proven guilty, period. However, being arrested seems like a bright line. The player for Alabama who gave his gun to a friend who then killed someone was never arrested or even charged with a crime. Whatever your opinion of what you can get away with in the South, no arrest, no suspension.
 

EasyThere Pilgrim said:
The U of MN administration self-sabotages our best teams. Our Final Four team...Tubby's NCAA team that was set to add Royce White & Trevor Mbakwe...and Pitino's best team. Our 3 best teams in the last 30 years were all dismantled...with no criminal or NCAA charges needed. Coincidence??

Maybe Illinois is doing the same thing. I haven't done any research on the case. But many in academia/administrations despise men's basketball.
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You should stick to -

WINGSPAN
 

EasyThere Pilgrim said:
The U of MN administration self-sabotages our best teams. Our Final Four team...Tubby's NCAA team that was set to add Royce White & Trevor Mbakwe...and Pitino's best team. Our 3 best teams in the last 30 years were all dismantled...with no criminal or NCAA charges needed. Coincidence??

Maybe Illinois is doing the same thing. I haven't done any research on the case. But many in academia/administrations despise men's basketball.
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Lets be honest - accusing Illinois of being as screwed up as the U leadership is a stretch. We have a long history of indecisiveness, bad hires, scapegoating, kangaroo courts, woke grandstanding, and injecting politics to screw up a relatively simple decision. There is no possible way that Illinois can catch up by suspending one guy (I'm a little offended).
 

there are two ways to look at the question of "highest-paid state employees."

If you include U of MN employees, then Fleck is the highest-paid public employee.
If you do not include U of MN employees, then the highest-paid salary for a person who works directly for the State of MN is just over $580,000 - for a psychiatrist at the Anoka Regional Treatment Center. 8 of the top 10 highest-paid state employees (not including U of MN employees) are psychiatrists who work for the state Human Services dep't.
 

EasyThere Pilgrim said:
The U of MN administration self-sabotages our best teams. Our Final Four team...Tubby's NCAA team that was set to add Royce White & Trevor Mbakwe...and Pitino's best team. Our 3 best teams in the last 30 years were all dismantled...with no criminal or NCAA charges needed. Coincidence??

Maybe Illinois is doing the same thing. I haven't done any research on the case. But many in academia/administrations despise men's basketball.
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Well, maybe you should do some research! But you already have strong opinions that you would hate to lose by doing some research.
 

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