Ex-WI LB Borland: 15 guys lined up for injections

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Pompous Elitist said:
I can assure you a huge number of people that never played gladiatorial sports feel awful.
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i agree, but at 29 if your body is breaking down it is from abuse and not age. if i read your post correctly, you said that borland “may start to think his various aches and pains, mental fog, depression, anxiety and other ravages of age”. rather than brain booboo. yes, age starts to catch up to a body, but not at 29, unless that body was abused physically. if borland has symptoms of a gimpy brain, then it is not the result of natural aging.
 


Bob_Loblaw said:
I ended up watching up. It was entertaining but I think the documentary was trying to explain something that can't really be explained - why do psychopaths do terrible things.
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How many psychopaths have massive CTE?
 

Stuff said:
I found it odd how his mom just asked Aaron to give her 1 million dollars so that she would be set for life. She was like well you just got 40 million dollars just give me one. Maybe this happens a lot to pro athletes when they get their multi-million dollar contracts.
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Yeh.
Odd for sure. She was definitely not the brightest bulb.
 

Face The Facts said:
Well, the Borland angle was to setup the CTE discovery at the end. Not only did Hernandez have it at age 27, but one of the worst cases seen for a person that age and the Dr. implies he probably got an onset of it 10 years prior.

I think the show wanted to essentially point out multiple directions of blame.

1. Dad
2. Mom (she was nuts)
3. Bi-sexuality
4. Toxic masculinity
5. Bad friends
6. Drug use
7. CTE

It was interesting to see and learn the details. It definitely helps you understand how those things happened and it was probably a mix of all.

It didn't leave you wondering how this could have happened when that much stuff was going on and he probably was living in a world of paranoia for a good period of his life.
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This post pretty much wins the thread.

Although -- and I'm sure you got this -- they weren't "blaming" bisexuality so much as they were the effort that he had to go through to conceal himself from the the rest of people and especially his father.
 


Face The Facts said:
Yeh.
Odd for sure. She was definitely not the brightest bulb.
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Yeah or how, you know, like a month after his dad died, she started seeing another guy and the guy started living in their home. While Aaron was still there.

Etc.
 

MplsGopher said:
This post pretty much wins the thread.

Although -- and I'm sure you got this -- they weren't "blaming" bisexuality so much as they were the effort that he had to go through to conceal himself from the the rest of people and especially his father.
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Right. They were blaming the weight of bisexuality not being more broadly accepted as a possible factor as to why Aaron had so much pressure on him.

If we want to do a % of blame, I'd going to go:

CTE 15%
Dad 20%
Mom banging new guy right after dad died 5%
Mom being too dumb to give a crap 15%
Drug use 15%
Wrong crowd 20%
Sexuality pressure 2.5%
Toxic Masculinity 2.5%

Some of these may have been precursors to others, but we have no way of defining what causes what and what was a chain reaction.

The CTE seemed to have started as early as when he was 17, so that's bad.
 


Face The Facts said:
Right. They were blaming the weight of bisexuality not being more broadly accepted as a possible factor as to why Aaron had so much pressure on him.

If we want to do a % of blame, I'd going to go:

CTE 15%
Dad 20%
Mom banging new guy right after dad died 5%
Mom being too dumb to give a crap 15%
Drug use 15%
Wrong crowd 20%
Sexuality pressure 2.5%
Toxic Masculinity 2.5%

Some of these may have been precursors to others, but we have no way of defining what causes what and what was a chain reaction.

The CTE seemed to have started as early as when he was 17, so that's bad.
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Yes.

There was just literally zero reason for a guy like that to be in those situations in the first place, hanging with those types of people. He really was crazy.
 




A nonymous said:
CTE did not cause Aaron Hernandez to do what he did. Not even close
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"cause"

I don't think CTE "causes" any physical movement.
I think CTE will mess your brain the efff up.

If your brain makes you rationalize that shooting someone is an appropriate action to take away your troubles, I don't know if that fits the description of "cause".

But CTE can do that it appears.
 

And, of course, no one is or ever has argued that CTE removes culpability.
 

hello-world said:
This is the correct read on this situation, thank you.

Toradol is a NSAID like Advil. Calling it a steroid is both inaccurate and disingenuous.
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furthermore it should not be injected more than once every 30 day Due side affects discussed above. No matter how you cut it, this is a major stain on the WI football proram.
 



bigtenchamps1899 said:
i agree, but at 29 if your body is breaking down it is from abuse and not age. if i read your post correctly, you said that borland “may start to think his various aches and pains, mental fog, depression, anxiety and other ravages of age”. rather than brain booboo. yes, age starts to catch up to a body, but not at 29, unless that body was abused physically. if borland has symptoms of a gimpy brain, then it is not the result of natural aging.
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You think depression and anxiety are rare in twenty somethings?
 

This thread is kind of a microcosm of a general misunderstanding of morphological changes not necessarily correlating as causation for a multitude of mental changes seen in the general public. The CTE researchers even state this in their papers but the media does what they do and due to thoughtless headlines and commentary we have a mini antivaxx type hysteria going on in the public sphere.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
This thread is kind of a microcosm of a general misunderstanding of morphological changes not necessarily correlating as causation for a multitude of mental changes seen in the general public. The CTE researchers even state this in their papers but the media does what they do and due to thoughtless headlines and commentary we have a mini antivaxx type hysteria going on in the public sphere.
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Thank you. The media and general public don't understand how to critique scientific literature, not that we should expect them to. I've argued with lay public for countless hours on this crusade and it is mostly just futile.

watertown 1987 guy n said:
furthermore it should not be injected more than once every 30 day Due side affects discussed above. No matter how you cut it, this is a major stain on the WI football proram.
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What are you talking about? Toradol can be given parenterally (IV or IM) 4 times per day for up to 5 consecutive days.

MplsGopher said:
Is the sky purple in your world?
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The sky is blue, but it sure sounds like it's purple in your world judging from your posting on the subject. Care to share where your insight is coming from or what evidence you have to stand on that CTE is the culprit? See my posts earlier in the thread, Hernandez's pattern of behavior is EASILY attributable to a personality disorder, it literally fits the textbook definition to a T and exhibited itself much earlier in his life than behavioral changes from CTE could possibly have.
 
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Bottom line is recognition of risk. If someone’s risk of CTE is 1/100 from a concussion or exposure to football contact (so called sub-clinical micro concussions) that’s one thing but if it’s shown to be 1 per million that’s probably reassuring to a lot of people analogous to risk of getting on a commercial jet plane. Or, the risk of adverse reaction to a medication/vaccine, surgery complication, or of driving to the store. Odds matter...

Or, perhaps there is genetic susceptibility to various neurodegenerations and those individuals can be identified and counseled.

Until we have a handle on numbers this hysteria is wholly unwarranted and even detrimental.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
You think depression and anxiety are rare in twenty somethings?
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p.e.:this 29 year old might be 'ravaged by age' rather than concussed
btc1899: 29yo is too young to be ravaged by age, unless the body is abused
p.e.: you think depression and anxiety are rare in twenty somethings?

:unsure:
 

A nonymous said:
The sky is blue, but it sure sounds like it's purple in your world judging from your posting on the subject. Care to share where your insight is coming from or what evidence you have to stand on that CTE is the culprit? See my posts earlier in the thread, Hernandez's pattern of behavior is EASILY attributable to a personality disorder, it literally fits the textbook definition to a T and exhibited itself much earlier in his life than behavioral changes from CTE could possibly have.
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This is a wild guess by you, a lay person, with no evidence.

You apparently slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night??

You’re describing behavior. I’m talking about physiology. The two are not only not mutually exclusive, it would be absurd to suggest that it’s not possible for them to coincide - as you have.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Bottom line is recognition of risk. If someone’s risk of CTE is 1/100 from a concussion or exposure to football contact (so called sub-clinical micro concussions) that’s one thing but if it’s shown to be 1 per million that’s probably reassuring to a lot of people analogous to risk of getting on a commercial jet plane. Or, the risk of adverse reaction to a medication/vaccine, surgery complication, or of driving to the store. Odds matter...

Or, perhaps there is genetic susceptibility to various neurodegenerations and those individuals can be identified and counseled.

Until we have a handle on numbers this hysteria is wholly unwarranted and even detrimental.
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Just like anything in the world, it’s almost impossible to “prove” anything conclusively and so there are an army of mostly internet warriors who are looking for a fight in any way they can. For the fun of it. Because they genuinely have nothing better to do and receive lots of pleasure from trying to prevent someone from declaring something.
 

(Not exact numbers, but)... When you scan 111 football brains and 110 of them have CTE, that's not a good start.

Now sure, they are only sampling brains from people who were suspected of having something wrong perhaps, so it's not a fair representation of all football players.

But in any case, if there wasn't a strong link between CTE and the issues these players are having, you would maybe expect a lower percentage like maybe 30 in 111 to show signs of CTE which would then at least make it seem to have a little lower correlation.
 

noamfromm said:
my assumption was that hello-world meant Aleve
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No I didn't. Iburpofen (Advil) is an NSAID just like naproxen (Aleve).
NSAIDs are Nonsteroidal Anti-inflammatory Drugs.
A lot of drugs fall into that category. Ketorolac (Toradol) is one of them.

The irony of calling it a steroid is that it is definitively categorized as 'nonsteroidal'.
 
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Face The Facts said:
(Not exact numbers, but)... When you scan 111 football brains and 110 of them have CTE, that's not a good start.

Now sure, they are only sampling brains from people who were suspected of having something wrong perhaps, so it's not a fair representation of all football players.

But in any case, if there wasn't a strong link between CTE and the issues these players are having, you would maybe expect a lower percentage like maybe 30 in 111 to show signs of CTE which would then at least make it seem to have a little lower correlation.
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IIRC the brains were submitted to the lab after the fact mostly by family members and most likely because they were exhibiting signs of various difficulties while still alive. There is huge selection bias there particularly if one were to attempt to extrapolate those findings to the entire population of former football players, or concussion sufferers. Most with clinical CTE played for 5+ years as professionals and had multiple known concussions.

And, there is a difference between having a few NFT lesions in the brain and that manifesting as clinical symptoms or degenerating into a homicidal maniac. There are different stages. These issues can crop up in people that have never played football or any sport.

IIRC the all-cause rate of death in former NFL players is roughly half the general population when age matched. That is, they live longer. Their suicide rate is lower. Most former players would do it again even knowing the possible risks for several reasons..
 

Pompous Elitist said:
And, there is a difference between having a few NFT lesions in the brain and that manifesting as clinical symptoms or degenerating into a homicidal maniac. There are different stages. These issues can crop up in people that have never played football or any sport.
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Thanks Goodell.

So now I see your angle (and some other's in the thread). You don't care about people, per se, you just want to make sure that the sport of football is protected. That's your only actual concern.

So first repeat, again, what has already been made clear: no one has or is suggesting that evidence of neurodegenerative disease should remove culpability.

Then make clear a new thing, even though I don't think it needs to be said: no one is attacking football or blaming football.
 


I took away your arguments. You want to push small children over in order to run over and tell people that CTE shouldn't be allowed to remove culpability and that football shouldn't be blamed for causing CTE in some players.

I took both of those away.

Now you have nothing to say. You certainly don't give a rip about Hernandez or the people's lives that were affected in his situation.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
IIRC the brains were submitted to the lab after the fact mostly by family members and most likely because they were exhibiting signs of various difficulties while still alive. There is huge selection bias there particularly if one were to attempt to extrapolate those findings to the entire population of former football players, or concussion sufferers. Most with clinical CTE played for 5+ years as professionals and had multiple known concussions.

And, there is a difference between having a few NFT lesions in the brain and that manifesting as clinical symptoms or degenerating into a homicidal maniac. There are different stages. These issues can crop up in people that have never played football or any sport.

IIRC the all-cause rate of death in former NFL players is roughly half the general population when age matched. That is, they live longer. Their suicide rate is lower. Most former players would do it again even knowing the possible risks for several reasons..
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First paragraph:
There is a "selection bias" on the initial brains as I stated, but for almost all to show CTE shows something. It doesn't mean that 100% of football players get CTE, but it does appear to be a strong correlation of people that have had issues, also happened to have had CTE and all happened to have played football.

You can spin selection bias however you would like, Merrill, but it's still not a good data point.

Second paragraph, sure... different stages. This could pop up elsewhere, but it's largely been football players so far. The connecting factor seems to be not only concussions but the sub-concussion, repetitive contact that's bad for the brain. Evidently repeatedly hitting you head against something is less than optimal.

Third paragraph, do you have any stats or context on this? (Mortality rate or whatever you are trying to argue). Your last point about players doing it again is barely more than a trivial antedote considering these people might not be the most clear headed in the first place, and they would be biased to defend their own actions when asked.
 

Face The Facts said:
The connecting factor seems to be not only concussions but the sub-concussion, repetitive contact that's bad for the brain.
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This is a really key thing. You can't claim "no I'm fine, I've never had a concussion". The cumulative affect is the same, over enough impacts.
 


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