Doogie: New U leaders taking notice of Tubby's recruiting misses

[dpodoll68]

"Everybody cheats, we were just unlucky enough to get caught." I hope all of you who feel this way don't teach it to your kids (assuming you've bred). Nothing short of embarrassing for you. Condoning and embracing cheating and crowing about the ill-gotten gains from it. Absolutely pathetic.

 

[BarnBurner]

Call it whatever you want, it's factual.



I'm not sure about Miles, but I don't know why anyone would be surprised at Hoiberg being more successful at Iowa St. than Tubby at Minnesota. Iowa St. is much more successful historically in basketball than Minnesota, and it's not close, especially over the last 25 years or so. Hoiberg already has an NCAA win at Iowa St., btw.

One or two year college coach should be more successful than a coach who has won a nat title.

Solid. Logic.

Admit ots hasnt gotten it done. Should be 12 conf wins and at least 2 ncaa wins with the team he has this year.

 

[dpodoll68]

One or two year college coach should be more successful than a coach who has won a nat title.

Solid. Logic.

Admit ots hasnt gotten it done. Should be 12 conf wins and at least 2 ncaa wins with the team he has this year.

Iowa St. is a far better basketball program, both now and historically, than Minnesota. Do you deny it?

I'll admit Tubby hasn't done as well as he should have here. I'll never understand why he made 420 smoke all that pot and why he took crowbars to the various appendages of Al Nolen and Trevor Mbakwe. He really seemed to be working against himself when he injured those guys or made them choom their way out of school.

 

[tikited]

So eventhough I was in the building when the gophers clinched the Big Ten it didn't happen because of piece of paper said so? So if the bible the whale in Jonah, do you really believe it happened?

English please!

 

[Stan]

Iowa St. is a far better basketball program, both now and historically, than Minnesota. Do you deny it?

I'll admit Tubby hasn't done as well as he should have here. I'll never understand why he made 420 smoke all that pot and why he took crowbars to the various appendages of Al Nolen and Trevor Mbakwe. He really seemed to be working against himself when he injured those guys or made them choom their way out of school.

Another post full of hyperbole by someone who doesnt think he uses hyperbole.

 

[SoMpls]

Clem absolutely won a conference title, he also went to a Final Four and an Elite Eight. You have to be a complete outsider to the world of major college athletics to believe what went on at Minnesota in the mid-late nineties was somehow unique.

Also, Clem's "cheating" did not bring him better recruits as he was often criticized for losing recruiting battles and not working hard enough on the trail. Even after the Final Four, he took the Gophers out of the Doug Wren recruitment which was chronicled quite extensively on the GopherHole (Wren and Kevin Burleson were thought to be a package deal, the Gophers ended up with the lesser regarded Burleson and Wren had quite the journey around college bball).

And the Sweet 16, two NIT Championships, and another couple of NCAA Tournament apperences.
Clem also kept a 4* player. Started with Willie Burton. Then Voshon Leonard, Bobby Jackson, and Quincy Lewis. I think Randy Carter was a 4* recruit we he cam from Memphis. He beat out Kansas for local player, John Thomas and Sam Jacobson. And I believe Pryzbilla was in the McDonalds game as a senior.

 

[dpodoll68]

Another post full of hyperbole by someone who doesnt think he uses hyperbole.

It's not hyperbole. If we're going to blame Tubby for missing the Tournament two years in a row, we have to blame him for injuries and players doping their way off the team. The two are inextricably linked. If you are more reasonable and are willing to admit that coaches don't have control over injuries and can't be held responsible for everything their adult players do 24/7, then you must also realize that no coach at a low-level AQ school can overcome those types of losses and still expect to make the Tournament. If we're talking Duke or UNC? Sure, they almost certainly have another 5-star, probably a McDonald's All-American, to pick up the slack and the minutes for their best-player-in-many-years that they just lost. That is not so at Minnesota.

 

[Gopher Warrior]

I'll admit Tubby hasn't done as well as he should have here. I'll never understand why he made 420 smoke all that pot and why he took crowbars to the various appendages of Al Nolen and Trevor Mbakwe. He really seemed to be working against himself when he injured those guys or made them choom their way out of school.

dp-doll is an interesting one. I can appreciate facts, but he often embraces some while ignoring others (just another example above). Whatever is convenient to fit his beliefs/agenda. In addition, he tends to latch onto "links" that don't contain facts. Maybe he's got a few "links" that verify all of Devoe's troubles arose due to weed?

Smith has one of the better deals in the nation. He owned the U on the amendment. But... even if you cut his annual salary by $1 million, who cares? My concern is getting the job done. Although... I still am waiting for dpo to admit that Smith was making over $2m last year (base + supp + $250k retirement contribution).

On the possibility of the U "allowing ALL tickholders to cheer for their favorite football team at Gophers Stadium (TCF Bank Stadium) while enjoying a beer".................. dp-doll didn't even give it the ol' 2%:

When will you get it through your thick skull that this will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever happen? Ever. Never ever.

 

[TC-Monkey]

Iowa St. is a far better basketball program, both now and historically, than Minnesota. Do you deny it?

Yep, i'll deny it. I'd say they're about even over the last 25 years. Iowa State has probably put a few more players in the NBA, especially over the last five years, but i don't see much difference otherwise. ISU has one final eight and a couple of sweet sixteens. Minnesota has a final four and a final eight. ISU has won a couple of conference titles. We've got the 1996-97 season. Not much difference.

The real difference is the arc of the programs. Iowa St. appears to be rising - the good programs have one or two top 100 commits by now - Minnesota future arc is more murky. I'm concerned about Iowa St. recruiting this state. Especially given the type of ball played in the Big 12. It's much more of an uptempo conference style than the B1G. ISU has two top 100 recruits from Big 10 states.

 

[Bad Gopher]

Hoiberg already has an NCAA win at Iowa St., btw.

Oops. Guess I'm back to the drawing board on my bookmaking.

I think saying ISU is much more successful historically than the U is going a bit far - even if you throw out the vacated stuff.

 

[Bad Gopher]

On a serious note Is Doogie auditioning to be Sid's replacement, that column reads like Sid's jottings section? I'm not trashing it, it seems like someone like Doogie would worker harder at getting "scoops" Does Sid even right his own column or does he have an intern write it and a 4th grader edit it?

Doogie bashing is quite a sport around here. I think he gets unfairly maligned. Why are people having a hard time believing that top U brass are discussing the basketball program? Isn't that what should be happening? Put it this way: if we Gopherholers are in consensus that 1) OTS had to be extended for strategic reasons but 2) we're still concerned about the direction this is headed, why is it so far fetched that the University administration is in the same place?

 

[HOOP DREAMS]

"Everybody cheats, we were just unlucky enough to get caught."

Dead on! Thank you.

 

[dpodoll68]

Yep, i'll deny it. I'd say they're about even over the last 25 years. Iowa State has probably put a few more players in the NBA, especially over the last five years, but i don't see much difference otherwise. ISU has one final eight and a couple of sweet sixteens. Minnesota has a final four and a final eight. ISU has won a couple of conference titles. We've got the 1996-97 season. Not much difference.

The real difference is the arc of the programs. Iowa St. appears to be rising - the good programs have one or two top 100 commits by now - Minnesota future arc is more murky. I'm concerned about Iowa St. recruiting this state. Especially given the type of ball played in the Big 12. It's much more of an uptempo conference style than the B1G. ISU has two top 100 recruits from Big 10 states.

Except Minnesota doesn't have a Final Four.

Since 1985:

Iowa St. - 13 tournament appearances, 2 conference tourney champs, 2 conference regular season champs, 3 Sweet Sixteens, 1 Elite Eight

Minnesota - 5 tournament appearances, 0 conference tourney champs, 0 conference regular season champs, 2 Sweet Sixteens, 1 Elite Eight

If you can't see how Iowa St. has been much better, there's not much I can do to help you.

 

[TC-Monkey]

Except Minnesota doesn't have a Final Four.

Since 1985:

Iowa St. - 13 tournament appearances, 2 conference tourney champs, 2 conference regular season champs, 3 Sweet Sixteens, 1 Elite Eight

Minnesota - 5 tournament appearances, 0 conference tourney champs, 0 conference regular season champs, 2 Sweet Sixteens, 1 Elite Eight

If you can't see how Iowa St. has been much better, there's not much I can do to help you.

I count the final four appearance, and the 1996-97 conference championship, and the four NCAA tournament appearances that were vacated. Even if the NCAA doesn't. That's just the way i roll. And since the Big 10 has only had a conference tournament since 1998, i'm only going to ignore all of ISU's conference tourney championships before then( one, to be precise) So here's how i see it:

Iowa St. - 13 tournament appearances, 1 conference tourney champs, 2 conference regular season champs, 3 Sweet Sixteens, 1 Elite Eight

Minnesota - 9 tournament appearances, 0 conference tourney champs, 1 conference regular season champs, 2 Sweet Sixteens, 1 Elite Eight, 1 Final Four

To me, those numbers don't add up to MUCH better. They add up to about the same.

My point about where the two programs are going still stands. ISU appears to be rising, and Minnesota appears to be hurting, recruiting-wise. Wisconsin has already taken a lot of in-state talent over the years. I'm concerned ISU is about to join that parade.

 

[Blackhammer]

Iowa State with Wayne Morgan losing control of his team. His New York kids running the team. Larry Eustachy groping co-eds. Let's not confuse them with Kansas quiet yet. Actually Minnesota and Iowa State are very much alike in their basketball history. But I must say Hoiberg seems to be doing a better job recruiting than Tubby at present.

 

[9194Gophs]

We 'Roll' alike.

I count the final four appearance, and the 1996-97 conference championship, and the four NCAA tournament appearances that were vacated. Even if the NCAA doesn't. That's just the way i roll. And since the Big 10 has only had a conference tournament since 1998, i'm only going to ignore all of ISU's conference tourney championships before then( one, to be precise) So here's how i see it:

Iowa St. - 13 tournament appearances, 1 conference tourney champs, 2 conference regular season champs, 3 Sweet Sixteens, 1 Elite Eight

Minnesota - 9 tournament appearances, 0 conference tourney champs, 1 conference regular season champs, 2 Sweet Sixteens, 1 Elite Eight, 1 Final Four

To me, those numbers don't add up to MUCH better. They add up to about the same.

The Final Four tips the scales to the Gophers for me. I was at many games during their prime years, they count in my book and always will.

 

[BarnBurner]

Iowa St. is a far better basketball program, both now and historically, than Minnesota. Do you deny it?

I'll admit Tubby hasn't done as well as he should have here. I'll never understand why he made 420 smoke all that pot and why he took crowbars to the various appendages of Al Nolen and Trevor Mbakwe. He really seemed to be working against himself when he injured those guys or made them choom their way out of school.

Yes.

Nice array of excuses dp. I am surprised ss has not commented on the excuses.

 

[scher215]

I still find it ironic how vilified John Calipari and other "cheating" coaches are on here, even ones who have never been caught, yet how loved Clem and the cheating Gopher teams are.

Go look at the thread about Duke and Coach K or the one where everyone finds it hilarious Coach Cal got asked how "his first final four feels?" or that talks Cal in general and compare it to the thoughts on this thread and many others about Clem's cheating.

I find it hilarious how much we take down other programs for cheating when we had a pretty nice scandal here as well and had a final four vacated.

People could at least be consistent ...

 

[Clem's Gophers]

I count the final four appearance, and the 1996-97 conference championship, and the four NCAA tournament appearances that were vacated. Even if the NCAA doesn't. That's just the way i roll. And since the Big 10 has only had a conference tournament since 1998, i'm only going to ignore all of ISU's conference tourney championships before then( one, to be precise) So here's how i see it:

Iowa St. - 13 tournament appearances, 1 conference tourney champs, 2 conference regular season champs, 3 Sweet Sixteens, 1 Elite Eight

Minnesota - 9 tournament appearances, 0 conference tourney champs, 1 conference regular season champs, 2 Sweet Sixteens, 1 Elite Eight, 1 Final Four

To me, those numbers don't add up to MUCH better. They add up to about the same.

My point about where the two programs are going still stands. ISU appears to be rising, and Minnesota appears to be hurting, recruiting-wise. Wisconsin has already taken a lot of in-state talent over the years. I'm concerned ISU is about to join that parade.

+1

 

[Cayman]

I still find it ironic how vilified John Calipari and other "cheating" coaches are on here, even ones who have never been caught, yet how loved Clem and the cheating Gopher teams are.

Go look at the thread about Duke and Coach K or the one where everyone finds it hilarious Coach Cal got asked how "his first final four feels?" or that talks Cal in general and compare it to the thoughts on this thread and many others about Clem's cheating.

I find it hilarious how much we take down other programs for cheating when we had a pretty nice scandal here as well and had a final four vacated.

People could at least be consistent ...

I have to think part of it is because it's one of the very few highly successful seasons Gopher basketball has had in the last 40+ years. I literally turned 4 the day before the 1997 NCAA tournament began, and my parents aren't Gopher fans, so I have no personal recollection of this season, but other people do. The season may not be on the record books, but I'm sure a lot of fans here remember going to those games, having a great time, watching the Gophers win, and win, and win some more in a way that they never had before and never have since. People have fond personal memories attached to that season, and I could definitely see why they would have a hard time saying that that season never happened, because the season did happen in the most literal sense. I don't think people want to condone Clem's cheating, they just don't want to forget about that one magical season of basketball that we've only seen once every decade or less. I bet if we had even one other Final Four within the last 30 years, people wouldn't be so reluctant to let go of the 1997 appearance.

I'm definitely not going to be the one using our vacated Final Four appearance to assert that our program has achieved more than other middling programs that do not have a Final Four or list those vacated seasons under the accomplishments of Gopher basketball, at least not without an asterisk, but I don't think it's hard to understand why many fans still won't give up the 1996-1997 season. After all, without that season, even including the other vacated seasons, there isn't a whole lot to write home about with regards to our basketball program in the last 20 years. We haven't officially won a tournament game in 22 years.

 

[EG#9]

I still find it ironic how vilified John Calipari and other "cheating" coaches are on here, even ones who have never been caught, yet how loved Clem and the cheating Gopher teams are.

Go look at the thread about Duke and Coach K or the one where everyone finds it hilarious Coach Cal got asked how "his first final four feels?" or that talks Cal in general and compare it to the thoughts on this thread and many others about Clem's cheating.

I find it hilarious how much we take down other programs for cheating when we had a pretty nice scandal here as well and had a final four vacated.

People could at least be consistent ...

Clem was found cheating in the academic realm. Most people realize that this goes on nearly everywhere and that, while against the rules, was certainly not the shocking scandal it was made out to be. Look how few college basketball players are declared academically ineligible despite many being on the lower end of the admittance requirement AND having the equivalent of a full time job playing basketball while taking college courses.

Calipari (and others) have a reputation for dirty recruiting which other coaches resent, because talent dictates wins and losses above all else. Ask yourself why most coaches have great things to say about Clem and not much good to say about a Coach Cal?

I find it sad that Minnesota fans are basically the only ones that "self sanction" their own program by constantly referring to an alleged "scandal" that is well over a decade old. Michigan fans don't claim that the fab five never happened and Gopher fans don't constantly remind Michigan of their cheating (or Ohio State of theirs under O'Brien), yet the violations with the fab five had a much bigger impact on the Wolverines on court performance than anything that happened at Minnesota.

 

[Mulligan]

I find it sad that Minnesota fans are basically the only ones that "self sanction" their own program by constantly referring to an alleged "scandal" that is well over a decade old. Michigan fans don't claim that the fab five never happened and Gopher fans don't constantly remind Michigan of their cheating (or Ohio State of theirs under O'Brien), yet the violations with the fab five had a much bigger impact on the Wolverines on court performance than anything that happened at Minnesota.

No need to put "scandal" in quotation marks like it really wasn't. Sorry, but it definitely was. It was organized and it was systematic and it went on for years. All, while the head coach cultivated an image of hard work and honesty. Hell, I even remember talk or speculation of federal charges because Pell Grants were involved. The "everybody does it" excuse is what's sad because not "everybody does it" on such a grand scale.

Just because you acknowledge what happened and accept it, makes one different from other fans? I still have great, fond memories of that '97 team, and Bobby Jackson makes my all time favorite Gopher team. I don't need the NCAA to validate how I see that team, but I certainly don't disagree with what they did and I certainly recognize it. Incidentally, it's much easier for coaches to say nice things about someone who got caught instead of someone who is still riding high, and has outbid them for guys they also really wanted. Plus, Clem never had the slick arrogance of Calipari.

Not sure how you can speak for Michigan or Ohio State fans either, since you certainly don't grasp how many Minnesota fans see things. I know Jalen Rose was bitter because the Fab Five wasn't being recognized so, sorry, but it seems like maybe quite a few Michigan fans are fine with being sanctimonious also. Fact is, our beloved Gophers would make most Top 10 Scandals list for the conference as often as any other school. While nothing compares to Penn State, Clem and the Ohio State brawl and its aftermath are right up there with anything else that has happened elsewhere. Not too sure Madison wouldn't make the list either which would put us Number One without a doubt.

 

[dpodoll68]

So dirty recruiting is "worse" than academic cheating? How do you figure? The net result is the same: players who are only active and on the floor via breaking rules. In fact, I would call the average case of academic fraud worse than the average recruiting violation because the latter most often happens with one-and-dones, while academic fraud can and does occur with players of any grade level and can be systemic and pervasive over several years.

The fact that we're even having this conversation is asinine. Attempting to whitewash it and say "it's not so bad" is nothing short of immoral. Gopher fans should be distancing themselves from it and recognizing it as the ugly, festering stain on our history that it is. Instead, many embrace it and say it was no big deal. Any accomplishment gained via breaking the rules is no accomplishment at all. Any other attitude toward it is repugnant and flat-out wrong.

 

[TC-Monkey]

Iowa State with Wayne Morgan losing control of his team. His New York kids running the team. Larry Eustachy groping co-eds. Let's not confuse them with Kansas quiet yet. Actually Minnesota and Iowa State are very much alike in their basketball history. But I must say Hoiberg seems to be doing a better job recruiting than Tubby at present.

Don't forget the quality McDermott years of 2006-2010. Four future NBA players or draftees, zero NCAA appearances. Stellar.