Biggest disappointment of this season became evident tonight

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VanillaThunder said:
That is alarming. What player doesn’t want to play? To me, it strongly suggests he lost the team. Clearly the bench could tell that their teammates were gassed. If the Strib report is accurate, I would expect both TT and Thiam will be entering the portal soon.
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No it doesn't. How he said that tells me they thought the first five were going well in the first half and no reason to disrupt that. People are looking for something here that isn't there. God, relax.
 


Dakota2 said:
Lack of trust based on what said players displayed in practice and in limited game time? Do you subject yourself to a dentist you do not trust because he deserves an opportunity?

Lack of development because the base line was too low? Maybe a couple of guys did develop a bit in practice but not to a level where they could contribute positively on the floor rather than negatively.

Yes, he could have played Daniels, TT, Thiam, Kern, and Brams five minutes each last night to rest the starters. At what cost? How many additional points would PS have scored during their respective times on the floor? How many less points would Minnesota have scored having Battle on the bench?

Any coach knows it is nearly impossible to win a game with five players. That Ben elected to try to win with five players tells you what you need to know about his trust level of the guys on the bench. There was no McBrayer or Trevor Winter sitting there.

Whatever anyone wants to say about Ben Johnson and his coaching style, one thing is indisputable: he tried to win every game this year.
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At what cost? They lost to the 11 seed by 9 without playing the bench.

You would maybe have a point if the Gophers didn't beat a NCAA tournament team without Battle, Curry, and Stephens, and playing Daniels and TT nearly the entire game.

Daniels and TT deserved to play 5-10 minutes to give players who were clearly gassed a break. It's complete stupidity and a giant red flag for Johnson not to do so.
 

VanillaThunder said:
A 7’ kid with 3 years of eligibility left has many options. Hedstrom went from WI to Valpo, I think, last year for example.

Ben took Daniels and Ogele, so I think it is safe to say TT has many options to him.

Players come and go. The alarming part is apparently Daniels, Ogele, Ramberg, and others also did not want to go in. The issue is greater than with the two freshman.

At this rate, we are looking at another transfer based team next year. Hope Henley follows through on his commitment.
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Maybe and maybe not in regards to a transfer based team. 3 of our 5 starting spots and 1 key reserve spot could easily be filled by some combination of Battle, Fox, Thompson and Ihnen. We are definitely going to need some transfer guards for sure, but the roster won't be a full rebuild the way it was for the 21-22 season.
 

Zeppelin Gopher said:
I'd be totally shocked if TT decided to transfer, for a variety of reasons.

Follow the kid for a day on IG and you'll see what I mean.
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Agreed, the people that think he will transfer are out of touch. If he doesn't do much next year, then year maybe. But to give up on Minnesota after one season when he showed flashes would be a huge surprise.
 


Tucker32 said:
No it doesn't. How he said that tells me they thought the first five were going well in the first half and no reason to disrupt that. People are looking for something here that isn't there. God, relax.
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They did well in the first half. And couldn't complete the game strong. Why?
 

there is a lot of speculating going on here.

We, the fans, are not at practice; not in the locker room; and not privy to what goes on behind the scenes.

As far as Ben Johnson - if we stipulate that he was not trying deliberately to lose, then it follows that Johnson was trying to win. And - there are 3 other coaches on the bench, including a coach in Thorson who is a mentor to Johnson. Presumably they are giving their input during games.

So, I have to conclude that Ben Johnson was doing what he thought would give the team the best chance to win.

You can certainly take that as a slight on Thompson, and yes, maybe Thompson does transfer. If he does, well, good luck somewhere else.

But in the end, I think the decision to play 5 guys tells us more about the players on the bench than it does about the coach.

In other words, the coaches believed that, if we put these guys in, it hurts our chance of winning.

I would be willing to bet that next year, the Gophers use at least 8 or 9 players on a regular basis.
If they're still playing 6 or 7 a night, then you've got a problem.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Maybe and maybe not in regards to a transfer based team. 3 of our 5 starting spots and 1 key reserve spot could easily be filled by some combination of Battle, Fox, Thompson and Ihnen. We are definitely going to need some transfer guards for sure, but the roster won't be a full rebuild the way it was for the 21-22 season.
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Oh my!!! Now TT could step in and start. Easily.

You cant make this stuff up.
 




GopherWeatherGuy said:
At what cost? They lost to the 11 seed by 9 without playing the bench.

You would maybe have a point if the Gophers didn't beat a NCAA tournament team without Battle, Curry, and Stephens, and playing Daniels and TT nearly the entire game.

Daniels and TT deserved to play 5-10 minutes to give players who were clearly gassed a break. It's complete stupidity and a giant red flag for Johnson not to do so.
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This is the bottom line. I've supported BJ and the staff and have been relatively encouraged by most of what they've done.

Trying to play iron 5 last night was just really weird and an incompetent decision.
 

JimmyJamesMD said:
Now the excuses get to end. He's had a full recruiting year now.
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Now the battle cry will be we're young. People need to understand that we aren't going to make huge strides in year two unless the freshmen really step up and we add a transfer or 2. Development takes time and is done in the off-season. Make some improvement next year and really show something when Battle is a senior.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
Now the battle cry will be we're young. People need to understand that we aren't going to make huge strides in year two unless the freshmen really step up and we add a transfer or 2. Development takes time and is done in the off-season. Make some improvement next year and really show something when Battle is a senior.
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Doesn't have to be. Portal era.
 

Block M said:
The player rotations (non-rotations) is the one red flag from the season. This indicates a lack of trust; lack of player development; and stubbornness. Surely playing only five or six guys did not give the team its best chance to win last night or probably during the season. A big thank you to the players. They gave it all they had.
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Two contributors were lost for the season and another did not play yesterday. That would have been an 8 man rotation. It is simply those factors that led Ben to do what he did this year. Playing more of the bench guys would have led to a less competitive team overall. Most teams play 8 players.

Penn State played 7 guys last night.
 



BarnBurner said:
Oh my!!! Now TT could step in and start. Easily.

You cant make this stuff up.
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Not what I said, but guess this is what I get for letting my curiosity get the better of me and taking you off ignore.

But it is also not impossible that with a strong off season that Thompson will be ready for a much bigger role in 22-23. Maybe even as a starter. Will all depend on whether or not he can add some bulk and make improvements to his low post game.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Not what I said, but guess this is what I get for letting my curiosity get the better of me and taking you off ignore.

But it is also not impossible that with a strong off season that Thompson will be ready for a much bigger role in 22-23. Maybe even as a starter. Will all depend on whether or not he can add some bulk and make improvements to his low post game.
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That is exactly what you said. But don’t let it get in the way of blathering on.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
Two contributors were lost for the season and another did not play yesterday. That would have been an 8 man rotation. It is simply those factors that led Ben to do what he did this year. Playing more of the bench guys would have led to a less competitive team overall. Most teams play 8 players.

Penn State played 7 guys last night.
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We never had two of those 8 to start the season, so that's misleading. We still had an 8 man rotation in most games with Sutherlin/Daniels and TT. Last night we refused to use 2 of the 3.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
Now the battle cry will be we're young. People need to understand that we aren't going to make huge strides in year two unless the freshmen really step up and we add a transfer or 2. Development takes time and is done in the off-season. Make some improvement next year and really show something when Battle is a senior.
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Battle will be a junior next season
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
If I have an abscess tooth and I need to get it pulled, yes I do. It's not an ideal situation to pick a dentist at random but when you have a desperate need, you make do.

It's kind of like our bench. In an ideal world, we wouldn't need those guys to log minutes but the alternative was the proverbial tooth ache of trying to win with 5 players.
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I had the impression dentists were almost as plentiful as lawyers. In any event there is always the option of just suffering the pain. Ben did that in the belief winning was more likely playing with five tired proven players rather than throwing liabilities on the floor.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
there is a lot of speculating going on here.

We, the fans, are not at practice; not in the locker room; and not privy to what goes on behind the scenes.

As far as Ben Johnson - if we stipulate that he was not trying deliberately to lose, then it follows that Johnson was trying to win. And - there are 3 other coaches on the bench, including a coach in Thorson who is a mentor to Johnson. Presumably they are giving their input during games.

So, I have to conclude that Ben Johnson was doing what he thought would give the team the best chance to win.

You can certainly take that as a slight on Thompson, and yes, maybe Thompson does transfer. If he does, well, good luck somewhere else.

But in the end, I think the decision to play 5 guys tells us more about the players on the bench than it does about the coach.

In other words, the coaches believed that, if we put these guys in, it hurts our chance of winning.

I would be willing to bet that next year, the Gophers use at least 8 or 9 players on a regular basis.
If they're still playing 6 or 7 a night, then you've got a problem.
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He'll use 13 players if they can all score, defend, and rebound better than the opponents.
 

Gophers_4life said:
This is how STrib reported it:

Unfortunately for Johnson, the Gophers were also not at full strength going into the Big Ten tournament opener Wednesday night, leading to a quick exit in a 60-51 loss in the rematch against the Nittany Lions at Gainbridge Fieldhouse.

Jamison Battle had a team-high 19 points, but the Gophers (13-17) didn't have energy to extend their season with the starters playing all but one minute for the first time this season.

Johnson said he looked to put in his reserves at times during the game, but they told him to stick with the starting lineup.

"Guys knew we were playing well, and they wanted the guys to keep fighting," Johnson said. "I think that's what our team has been all year. They're about the right stuff. They're the true definition of a team. It hurts to end. And we all wish we had one more day."

Gophers third-leading scorer E.J. Stephens was sidelined by a migraine. Sean Sutherlin replaced Stephens in the starting lineup, but that took away their top player off the bench.

"Going down with a migraine literally an hour before the game you feel for him," Johnson said of Stephens. "He was super locked in all week. He didn't want it to end as far as the season."

Johnson had the shortest rotation among all high major programs in the regular season, but Stephens playing one minute was the fewest the bench had played all year. Logging those heavy minutes finally seemed to wear down the Gophers down the stretch.
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I'm not buying what is being sold here.
BEN HAS SOME EXPLAINING TO DO.If
the media has guts to look into it,but probably will just ignore it.
 

Zeppelin Gopher said:
This is the bottom line. I've supported BJ and the staff and have been relatively encouraged by most of what they've done.

Trying to play iron 5 last night was just really weird and an incompetent decision.
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Agree with this. There were a few loud voices on here defending Pitino when Carr was getting ridden into the ground and obviously gassed at the end of games. I remember people using stats within the last 5 minutes to prove their point. You really don't need stats to quantify the obvious. The team, with numerous players getting heavy minutes all season had greater difficulty in the last 1/3 of the season. This was very much on display last night when the team was discombobulated and often chucking up shots against a not-overly-good team.

I kept thinking to myself before it got out of hand at the end- "well, even if we win tonight, we're going to get blitzed tomorrow". If they did win yesterday, they would have been exhausted today and it probably would have gone poorly. This is a tournament with games on consecutive days. And many of the players you recruited have this one-and-only opportunity to play in the B1G tournament. You're the 14 seed playing an 11 seed. What exactly is the harm in throwing some minutes to the bench? I think it ended up being a bad look for Johnson, and agree with Bleed in that this was his poorest performance of the year. He's young; hopefully he uses this as a learning experience.
 

leftyslefty said:
There is NO excuse for no substitutions against another bad team. I would love to know the reasoning. Even if TT gets torched (which he wouldn’t by Lurch of PS) he could say….see I told you you weren’t ready.

We weren’t going to win the BTT….Thompson should have played.
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BJ "The bench players told me not to play them. What could I do! It's their fault."
 

MaxyJR1 said:
Two contributors were lost for the season and another did not play yesterday. That would have been an 8 man rotation. It is simply those factors that led Ben to do what he did this year. Playing more of the bench guys would have led to a less competitive team overall. Most teams play 8 players.

Penn State played 7 guys last night.
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Why was their no player development ?
 

Lion King said:
I'm not buying what is being sold here.
BEN HAS SOME EXPLAINING TO DO.If
the media has guts to look into it,but probably will just ignore it.
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Yeah Ben has to explain why he played the guys that he thought gave them the best chance to win last night? Sounds like this could be a bigger scandal than Gangelhofgate.
 


Dakota2 said:
I had the impression dentists were almost as plentiful as lawyers. In any event there is always the option of just suffering the pain. Ben did that in the belief winning was more likely playing with five tired proven players rather than throwing liabilities on the floor.
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The problem was, he was wrong and didn't adjust. It was evident that team was gassed, but still he didn't adjust. Basketball can be a game of my guy beats the guy covering him, to do that you can't be completely spent, especially if you don't start with more talent than the other guy. If you only have two guys that can consistently beat their man and no other options, don't play them at the same time. Rest one of them, so when the other runs out of gas, then you have one who is fresh. Even if you have to put in a player who isn't great, its better to always have a fresh go to player on the floor who can actually be effective, rather than have all your go to players completely gassed on the floor all the time and not able to beat anyone. If your go to has the ball, than it doesn't really matter if the weaker player is on the floor.
 

stocker08 said:
Front court players take longer to develop than backcourt players. Especially in the Big Ten....being a 7'0" 18 year old twig going up against grown men is a hard adjustment to make.

I posted a week or two about this....when I looked at other centers in TTs class. There are only a handful of true freshman centers who played significant minutes this year. That included four of the top five centers in the class and no more than three or four guys ranked higher than TT after that. Most saw a few minutes per game. And I understand that a lot of those teams probably had enough depth that they didn't need to play their freshman. But the guys ranked ahead of TT (according to the 247 composite) were all Top 150 recruits (I believe). Talented....highly recruited players that still barely saw the floor. Point being....most big guys simply aren't ready as true freshman. And yes....it's disappointing that TT didn't see more time considering our need at the position. But not being ready this year isn't unique to him. Ben Johnson has been saying it all year.
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I agree with you. I still have plenty of hope for TT. I found myself watching him like a hawk whenever he was in.

When the other options were playing a backup from Stephen F. Austin, or an injury plagued guy who planned to be a grad assistant, or a D2 transfer, or a slashing guard at our 5 spot..I had hoped he would have had a regular role this year. He played 152 minutes, 25% of those in one game, and averaged 2 pts and 1 reb.

For perspective here are the total season minutes played in their freshman year by other Gophers in the last few coaching regimes:

Ralph Sampson: 668 minutes, 6 pts and 4 rebs
Colton Iverson: 566 minutes, 5 pts and 4 rebs
Elliot Elliason: 571 minutes, 3 pts and 4 rebs
Gaston Diedhiou: 66 minutes, 1 pt and 1reb
Bakary Konate: 222 minutes, 2 reb and 2 pts
Daniel Oturu: 834 minutes, 11 pts 7 rebs

It worries me that Ben saw fit to give TT Konate/Diedhiou minutes when the need was so great...but then again I think TT was the least physically ready of all these players. Really hope to see him blossom in the coming years.
 

Dakota2 said:
I had the impression dentists were almost as plentiful as lawyers. In any event there is always the option of just suffering the pain. Ben did that in the belief winning was more likely playing with five tired proven players rather than throwing liabilities on the floor.
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Yeah, they might be. My point is that when you're in dire need of one, one is better than nothing.

People aren't asking for a robust/dominant bench, they are simply saying we were in dire need of some guys picking up a few minutes throughout some games over the course of the last few months. Our refusal to play players - even bad ones - is kind of strange and it's a criticism some folks are going to continue to have of Ben.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
there is a lot of speculating going on here.

We, the fans, are not at practice; not in the locker room; and not privy to what goes on behind the scenes.

As far as Ben Johnson - if we stipulate that he was not trying deliberately to lose, then it follows that Johnson was trying to win. And - there are 3 other coaches on the bench, including a coach in Thorson who is a mentor to Johnson. Presumably they are giving their input during games.

So, I have to conclude that Ben Johnson was doing what he thought would give the team the best chance to win.

You can certainly take that as a slight on Thompson, and yes, maybe Thompson does transfer. If he does, well, good luck somewhere else.

But in the end, I think the decision to play 5 guys tells us more about the players on the bench than it does about the coach.

In other words, the coaches believed that, if we put these guys in, it hurts our chance of winning.

I would be willing to bet that next year, the Gophers use at least 8 or 9 players on a regular basis.
If they're still playing 6 or 7 a night, then you've got a problem.
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who recruited the players?
 

I didn't see the game. The only ongoing head scratcher for me is TT. He showed some ability when given the opportunity, certainly enough to rate 5-10 minutes a game at a minimum on this roster. Thiam looked somewhat athletic, with no ability to shoot. He could have played situationally as the season progressed.

This team had very limited resources and TT was a resource. BJ is a smart guy, so there must have been a reason.
 

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