Biggest disappointment of this season became evident tonight

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leftyslefty said:
Next year there will be 4 (at least) freshmen + Battle, Fox and Ihnen, and presumably 2 or more portal guys who will surely be promised big minutes. Where does that leave Thompson?

Here is a guy who is nearly 7 feet tall, moves well and has decent ball skills and shooting ability. THIS was the year to give him some run and find out where he is on the learning curve. Next year there should be far more depth and he could slip further down the rotation.
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The fact that TT didn't play a ton on a team that desperately needed help in the front court should be a pretty strong indication of where the coaches felt he was on the learning curve.

Assuming Thompson is on the roster next year, he will have the entire off season to prove to the coaches he deserves a bigger role. Lack of playing time this year won't be a factor in that.
 

IMO I think TT will be back. He is pretty close with Fox. I have seen the two at high school games and UST games… I said it 18 months ago TT was not ready you could see it in AAU…. There is some potential there. I think with TT there may be some maturity issues and lack of focus…
 

Here is a reprise post that I made last year. The same logic can be applied to Thiam, who played 49 minutes with 5 turnovers, shot 25%, with 0-6 from 3PT. He will likely never be a contributor in the B10.

At least with TT there are glimmers of hope. He had that Rutgers game where he was effective and played all 40 minutes. He shot 47%, with 40% from 3PT (6-15). He has a clear issue he can address -- putting on weight and getting stronger. And of the three players in my sample below, two were posts (who underwent some body transformation).

As an update, Sam Freeman averaged 4 pts and 3 rebounds in 12 minutes per game at Pacific. Martice Mitchell was supposed to transfer to Northern Illinois but never showed up on the roster. So I think that research was validated.

Repost:
When you see as little time as a freshman as Sam Freeman (30 minutes) and Martice Mitchell saw (23 minutes)...it's very unlikely you will ever contribute in the B10.

I did a deep dive study on the Gophers in the last 20 years: I arbitrarily picked <200 total minutes for freshmen to see who developed into a contributor later on in their career.

The only success stories I can find are:

Aaron Robinson: 134 minutes as a freshman, averaged 0.8 ppg and shot 20% from the field in 2001-2002. Stuck around and contributed as a solid PG his senior year, averaging 33 mpg, 8 ppg, 3 apg.
Jeff Hagen: played 194 minutes as a freshman, starter as a senior in 2004-2005 averaging 11 pts/6 rebs.
Mo Walker: conditioning was a major issue. Played 115 minutes as a freshman (198 as a soph), averaged 12/7 as a senior in 2014-2015.

Other guys who never were major contributors here after playing <200 min:
Wade Hokenson
Stan Gaines
Aliou Kane
Jonathan Williams (
Miles Webb
Kerry Wooldridge
Brandon Smith
Engen Nurumbi
Bryant Allen (not fair because he was football and partial season basketball...and then transferred to Illinois State for basketball..but he met the criteria of the search)
Wally Ellenson
Charles Buggs
Josh Martin (transferred partway through freshman year)
Gaston Diedhiou
Michael Hurt
Ahmad Gilbert (honorable mention, saw 295 minutes as a freshman and only 75 as a sophomore)
Jarvis Omersa (206 minutes, close enough!)
Bryan Greenlee (had a solid year at Florida Atlantic...hard to know what he would do here)
David Mutaf

Most notable other players are Justin Cobbs (played 363 forgettable minutes, and was a good player for Cal after redshirting/transferring) and Jamir Harris (played 394 minutes, now averaged 20 ppg for American and is transferring again as a 5th year senior). Mo Hargrow also only played 394 minutes his freshman year but was a solid contributor the next 3 years. If you stretch my 20 year window a few years back you could also count Dusty Rychart, although he was a walk-on which IMO is a different story.

Long story short: let's not twist ourselves into pretzels over the fact these guys are transferring. For the most part, if you aren't competitive enough to break the rotation even a little bit as a freshman...your chances of ever contributing in the B10 are pretty slim. If I missed anybody, please let me know and I can update my list.
 
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eker0016 said:
Here is a reprise post that I made last year. The same logic can be applied to Thiam, who played 49 minutes with 5 turnovers, shot 25%, with 0-6 from 3PT. He will likely never be a contributor in the B10.

At least with TT there are glimmers of hope. He had that Rutgers game where he was effective and played all 40 minutes. He shot 47%, with 40% from 3PT (6-15). He has a clear issue he can address -- putting on weight and getting stronger. And of the three players in my sample below, two were posts (who underwent some body transformation).

Repost:
When you see as little time as a freshman as Sam Freeman (30 minutes) and Martice Mitchell saw (23 minutes)...it's very unlikely you will ever contribute in the B10.

I did a deep dive study on the Gophers in the last 20 years: I arbitrarily picked <200 total minutes for freshmen to see who developed into a contributor later on in their career.

The only success stories I can find are:

Aaron Robinson: 134 minutes as a freshman, averaged 0.8 ppg and shot 20% from the field in 2001-2002. Stuck around and contributed as a solid PG his senior year, averaging 33 mpg, 8 ppg, 3 apg.
Jeff Hagen: played 194 minutes as a freshman, starter as a senior in 2004-2005 averaging 11 pts/6 rebs.
Mo Walker: conditioning was a major issue. Played 115 minutes as a freshman (198 as a soph), averaged 12/7 as a senior in 2014-2015.

Other guys who never were major contributors here after playing <200 min:
Wade Hokenson
Stan Gaines
Aliou Kane
Jonathan Williams (
Miles Webb
Kerry Wooldridge
Brandon Smith
Engen Nurumbi
Bryant Allen (not fair because he was football and partial season basketball...and then transferred to Illinois State for basketball..but he met the criteria of the search)
Wally Ellenson
Charles Buggs
Josh Martin (transferred partway through freshman year)
Gaston Diedhiou
Michael Hurt
Ahmad Gilbert (honorable mention, saw 295 minutes as a freshman and only 75 as a sophomore)
Jarvis Omersa (206 minutes, close enough!)
Bryan Greenlee (had a solid year at Florida Atlantic...hard to know what he would do here)
David Mutaf

Most notable other players are Justin Cobbs (played 363 forgettable minutes, and was a good player for Cal after redshirting/transferring) and Jamir Harris (played 394 minutes, now averaged 20 ppg for American and is transferring again as a 5th year senior). Mo Hargrow also only played 394 minutes his freshman year but was a solid contributor the next 3 years. If you stretch my 20 year window a few years back you could also count Dusty Rychart, although he was a walk-on which IMO is a different story.

Long story short: let's not twist ourselves into pretzels over the fact these guys are transferring. For the most part, if you aren't competitive enough to break the rotation even a little bit as a freshman...your chances of ever contributing in the B10 are pretty slim. If I missed anybody, please let me know and I can update my list.
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Too soon.
 

VanillaThunder said:
or for any bench player last night …

Every available player was brought in by Ben with exception of TT, who Ben must have encouraged to stay.

The iron 5 have it all they had. Ben failed them too last night in the most baffling display of Gopher (non) coaching I have ever seen.
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Yeah, at the end of the 1st half putting in Luke L was puzzling. but ok.
 




I have been out of pocket for most of the last week, so is the story really that Ben is saying the bench players didn't want to play?

I have to wonder how that plays out? Did Ben go to them in the last minute of the first half for them to go in for 20 seconds and then they told him to kick rocks?

If players really didn't want to go in, they shouldn't be on the team. It's also a red flag for Ben Johnson.

This is very odd. It's almost worse if there isn't more to this story.
 


I didn't take Ben's statement about the bench players literally.

IMO it was just a throwaway line in in the halftime interview...it that actually happened, it's obviously very concerning.

Judging from Daniels body language on the bench last night, I find it very hard to believe that he wasn't interesting in playing.
 

This is how STrib reported it:

Unfortunately for Johnson, the Gophers were also not at full strength going into the Big Ten tournament opener Wednesday night, leading to a quick exit in a 60-51 loss in the rematch against the Nittany Lions at Gainbridge Fieldhouse.

Jamison Battle had a team-high 19 points, but the Gophers (13-17) didn't have energy to extend their season with the starters playing all but one minute for the first time this season.

Johnson said he looked to put in his reserves at times during the game, but they told him to stick with the starting lineup.

"Guys knew we were playing well, and they wanted the guys to keep fighting," Johnson said. "I think that's what our team has been all year. They're about the right stuff. They're the true definition of a team. It hurts to end. And we all wish we had one more day."

Gophers third-leading scorer E.J. Stephens was sidelined by a migraine. Sean Sutherlin replaced Stephens in the starting lineup, but that took away their top player off the bench.

"Going down with a migraine literally an hour before the game you feel for him," Johnson said of Stephens. "He was super locked in all week. He didn't want it to end as far as the season."

Johnson had the shortest rotation among all high major programs in the regular season, but Stephens playing one minute was the fewest the bench had played all year. Logging those heavy minutes finally seemed to wear down the Gophers down the stretch.
 





alchemy2u said:
I think the predominant theme for the first year could have been culture and style of play.

It was obvious that they were short handed and played very few players, but let's look at it from another point of view. This is just my guess from a distance with no direct information.

Let's say the coach tells a player that they need to improve certain parts of their game (defense, etc.) before they can play. As the year goes on that player keeps making mistakes in practice and doesn't seem to be improving enough to get PT. What signal and lesson does it show if the coach still gives that player significant playing time without making the improvements? Does the team still listen to the coach or do they know that the coach will play guys he needs even if they ignore him?

It could just be a case where none of the players on the bench have earned PT. Coach could be sending a strong message that PT is not given, it is earned.
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this has to be the case. It really does set the expectations Ben has from day 1. We should see progress right away then next season
 

Gophers_4life said:
This is how STrib reported it:

Johnson said he looked to put in his reserves at times during the game, but they told him to stick with the starting lineup.

"Guys knew we were playing well, and they wanted the guys to keep fighting," Johnson said. "I think that's what our team has been all year. They're about the right stuff. They're the true definition of a team. It hurts to end. And we all wish we had one more day.
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That is alarming. What player doesn’t want to play? To me, it strongly suggests he lost the team. Clearly the bench could tell that their teammates were gassed. If the Strib report is accurate, I would expect both TT and Thiam will be entering the portal soon.
 

I would be frustrated if I were Daniels. Curry looked like he was going to collapse, and Ben couldn't go to Daniels in last college game ever? Not a way I would want to end my career, I'm literally the second guy in line and coach says nah, I'm gonna play the grad assistant with questionable knees all 40 minutes.
 

VanillaThunder said:
That is alarming. What player doesn’t want to play? To me, it strongly suggests he lost the team. Clearly the bench could tell that their teammates were gassed. If the Strib report is accurate, I would expect both TT and Thiam will be entering the portal soon.
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I don't see it with TT. And where would he go, St Thomas?
 

Spottedmuskie said:
I don't see it with TT. And where would he go, St Thomas?
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A 7’ kid with 3 years of eligibility left has many options. Hedstrom went from WI to Valpo, I think, last year for example.

Ben took Daniels and Ogele, so I think it is safe to say TT has many options to him.

Players come and go. The alarming part is apparently Daniels, Ogele, Ramberg, and others also did not want to go in. The issue is greater than with the two freshman.

At this rate, we are looking at another transfer based team next year. Hope Henley follows through on his commitment.
 

Gophers_4life said:
This is how STrib reported it:

Unfortunately for Johnson, the Gophers were also not at full strength going into the Big Ten tournament opener Wednesday night, leading to a quick exit in a 60-51 loss in the rematch against the Nittany Lions at Gainbridge Fieldhouse.

Jamison Battle had a team-high 19 points, but the Gophers (13-17) didn't have energy to extend their season with the starters playing all but one minute for the first time this season.

Johnson said he looked to put in his reserves at times during the game, but they told him to stick with the starting lineup.

"Guys knew we were playing well, and they wanted the guys to keep fighting," Johnson said. "I think that's what our team has been all year. They're about the right stuff. They're the true definition of a team. It hurts to end. And we all wish we had one more day."

Gophers third-leading scorer E.J. Stephens was sidelined by a migraine. Sean Sutherlin replaced Stephens in the starting lineup, but that took away their top player off the bench.

"Going down with a migraine literally an hour before the game you feel for him," Johnson said of Stephens. "He was super locked in all week. He didn't want it to end as far as the season."

Johnson had the shortest rotation among all high major programs in the regular season, but Stephens playing one minute was the fewest the bench had played all year. Logging those heavy minutes finally seemed to wear down the Gophers down the stretch.
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Diffident Ben. ‘Anyone wanna play?’
 

Zeppelin Gopher said:
I didn't take Ben's statement about the bench players literally.

IMO it was just a throwaway line in in the halftime interview...it that actually happened, it's obviously very concerning.

Judging from Daniels body language on the bench last night, I find it very hard to believe that he wasn't interesting in playing.
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Very interesting. I, like you, didn’t think it actually happened. Guess I was wrong. Find it hard to believe someone would not want to play. Astounds me.
 


Block M said:
The player rotations (non-rotations) is the one red flag from the season. This indicates a lack of trust; lack of player development; and stubbornness. Surely playing only five or six guys did not give the team its best chance to win last night or probably during the season. A big thank you to the players. They gave it all they had.
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Lack of trust based on what said players displayed in practice and in limited game time? Do you subject yourself to a dentist you do not trust because he deserves an opportunity?

Lack of development because the base line was too low? Maybe a couple of guys did develop a bit in practice but not to a level where they could contribute positively on the floor rather than negatively.

Yes, he could have played Daniels, TT, Thiam, Kern, and Brams five minutes each last night to rest the starters. At what cost? How many additional points would PS have scored during their respective times on the floor? How many less points would Minnesota have scored having Battle on the bench?

Any coach knows it is nearly impossible to win a game with five players. That Ben elected to try to win with five players tells you what you need to know about his trust level of the guys on the bench. There was no McBrayer or Trevor Winter sitting there.

Whatever anyone wants to say about Ben Johnson and his coaching style, one thing is indisputable: he tried to win every game this year.
 

VanillaThunder said:
That is alarming. What player doesn’t want to play? To me, it strongly suggests he lost the team. Clearly the bench could tell that their teammates were gassed. If the Strib report is accurate, I would expect both TT and Thiam will be entering the portal soon.
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If anyone is transferring out, we will probably hear soon. Seems like some of these kids barely get off the bus ride home before they announce.
 

Gophers_4life said:
With his redshirt already gone, and everyone saying "why the heck didn't you play TT more??", there has to be a reason or reasons something like what you say here.

There has to be more to it that we fans don't know. Bad attitude in practice? Late to meetings, skipping class? I pulled those out of my rear end as hypotheticals, I have no info.
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I doubt very much TT has a bad attitude or skips class and is late for practice. From what little we can see his attitude is great and he probably understands his limited playing time much better than posters here.

Everything can't be explained by "mental" errors. He keeps making the same mistakes etc. I would bet TT is a smart kid, knows what coaches want, and is trying to do it. But you can't change the rate of physical development with a good attitude.

TT is not strong enough to play inside right now. That is the only place he could have helped the team -- strong interior defense, rebounding, shot blocking, and score in the paint. We didn't need a 6'11 three point shooter.

I think he understands that if he is going to be a major factor next year he will earn that between now and late summer in the weight room, in the gym alone, and at the dinner table.
 

Dakota2 said:
Lack of trust based on what said players displayed in practice and in limited game time? Do you subject yourself to a dentist you do not trust because he deserves an opportunity?

Lack of development because the base line was too low? Maybe a couple of guys did develop a bit in practice but not to a level where they could contribute positively on the floor rather than negatively.

Yes, he could have played Daniels, TT, Thiam, Kern, and Brams five minutes each last night to rest the starters. At what cost? How many additional points would PS have scored during their respective times on the floor? How many less points would Minnesota have scored having Battle on the bench?

Any coach knows it is nearly impossible to win a game with five players. That Ben elected to try to win with five players tells you what you need to know about his trust level of the guys on the bench. There was no McBrayer or Trevor Winter sitting there.

Whatever anyone wants to say about Ben Johnson and his coaching style, one thing is indisputable: he tried to win every game this year.
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If I have an abscess tooth and I need to get it pulled, yes I do. It's not an ideal situation to pick a dentist at random but when you have a desperate need, you make do.

It's kind of like our bench. In an ideal world, we wouldn't need those guys to log minutes but the alternative was the proverbial tooth ache of trying to win with 5 players.
 

eker0016 said:
Here is a reprise post that I made last year. The same logic can be applied to Thiam, who played 49 minutes with 5 turnovers, shot 25%, with 0-6 from 3PT. He will likely never be a contributor in the B10.

At least with TT there are glimmers of hope. He had that Rutgers game where he was effective and played all 40 minutes. He shot 47%, with 40% from 3PT (6-15). He has a clear issue he can address -- putting on weight and getting stronger. And of the three players in my sample below, two were posts (who underwent some body transformation).

As an update, Sam Freeman averaged 4 pts and 3 rebounds in 12 minutes per game at Pacific. Martice Mitchell was supposed to transfer to Northern Illinois but never showed up on the roster. So I think that research was validated.

Repost:
When you see as little time as a freshman as Sam Freeman (30 minutes) and Martice Mitchell saw (23 minutes)...it's very unlikely you will ever contribute in the B10.

I did a deep dive study on the Gophers in the last 20 years: I arbitrarily picked <200 total minutes for freshmen to see who developed into a contributor later on in their career.

The only success stories I can find are:

Aaron Robinson: 134 minutes as a freshman, averaged 0.8 ppg and shot 20% from the field in 2001-2002. Stuck around and contributed as a solid PG his senior year, averaging 33 mpg, 8 ppg, 3 apg.
Jeff Hagen: played 194 minutes as a freshman, starter as a senior in 2004-2005 averaging 11 pts/6 rebs.
Mo Walker: conditioning was a major issue. Played 115 minutes as a freshman (198 as a soph), averaged 12/7 as a senior in 2014-2015.

Other guys who never were major contributors here after playing <200 min:
Wade Hokenson
Stan Gaines
Aliou Kane
Jonathan Williams (
Miles Webb
Kerry Wooldridge
Brandon Smith
Engen Nurumbi
Bryant Allen (not fair because he was football and partial season basketball...and then transferred to Illinois State for basketball..but he met the criteria of the search)
Wally Ellenson
Charles Buggs
Josh Martin (transferred partway through freshman year)
Gaston Diedhiou
Michael Hurt
Ahmad Gilbert (honorable mention, saw 295 minutes as a freshman and only 75 as a sophomore)
Jarvis Omersa (206 minutes, close enough!)
Bryan Greenlee (had a solid year at Florida Atlantic...hard to know what he would do here)
David Mutaf

Most notable other players are Justin Cobbs (played 363 forgettable minutes, and was a good player for Cal after redshirting/transferring) and Jamir Harris (played 394 minutes, now averaged 20 ppg for American and is transferring again as a 5th year senior). Mo Hargrow also only played 394 minutes his freshman year but was a solid contributor the next 3 years. If you stretch my 20 year window a few years back you could also count Dusty Rychart, although he was a walk-on which IMO is a different story.

Long story short: let's not twist ourselves into pretzels over the fact these guys are transferring. For the most part, if you aren't competitive enough to break the rotation even a little bit as a freshman...your chances of ever contributing in the B10 are pretty slim. If I missed anybody, please let me know and I can update my list.
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Front court players take longer to develop than backcourt players. Especially in the Big Ten....being a 7'0" 18 year old twig going up against grown men is a hard adjustment to make.

I posted a week or two about this....when I looked at other centers in TTs class. There are only a handful of true freshman centers who played significant minutes this year. That included four of the top five centers in the class and no more than three or four guys ranked higher than TT after that. Most saw a few minutes per game. And I understand that a lot of those teams probably had enough depth that they didn't need to play their freshman. But the guys ranked ahead of TT (according to the 247 composite) were all Top 150 recruits (I believe). Talented....highly recruited players that still barely saw the floor. Point being....most big guys simply aren't ready as true freshman. And yes....it's disappointing that TT didn't see more time considering our need at the position. But not being ready this year isn't unique to him. Ben Johnson has been saying it all year.
 

GoodasGold said:
If the players are making these kinds of decisions, perhaps we don’t don’t need a head coach?🤔
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Agreed.

its not that this is a weird statement to make public, is that it brings up a question of leadership.

who runs this program? The head coach or everybody?
 


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