Ben Is the Coach - We Need Some Patience

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Bob_Loblaw said:
There aren't too many jobs on the planet that you can get hired and do worse than anyone has ever done in the history of the company and keep a job for three years.
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That's simply not true. We're not talking about jobs in general. We're talking about high level college basketball head coaching jobs (but the same things would be true of high level college football head coaching jobs).

Absent objectionable conduct, firing such a coach after two years is pretty rare. Yes, Claeys was fired quickly (after a pretty successful year) but he wasn't smart enough to keep his mouth shut so the administration made an example of him. Notice that Pitino didn't utter a peep when Reggie Lynch was suspended.

Three years is a different matter. You can find multiple examples of P6 coaches fired after three years.
 

forever a gopher said:
Due to the almost unbelievable 100% FT performance the other day, we've rocketed up from spot 352 of 352 nationally to now 351 of 352. Team 350 (Gardner-Webb), watch out, we're comin' for ya!
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There are 363 D1 teams. Someone posted about this yesterday. Lafayette is now the last place free throw shooting school and the Gophers are next to last.
 

cjbfbp said:
There are 363 D1 teams. Someone posted about this yesterday. Lafayette is now the last place free throw shooting school and the Gophers are next to last.
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Well, then somebody needs to tell NCAA.com that, or you are incorrect. I've been watching the FT shooting all year, and all year there has been 352. Go to any team stat on NCAA.com, and they show 352 teams. There is an "All things FT shooting" thread that I have been keeping tabs on this if you go looking.

https://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/team/150

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forever a gopher said:
Well, then somebody needs to tell NCAA.com that, or you are incorrect. I've been watching the FT shooting all year, and all year there has been 352. Go to any team stat on NCAA.com, and they show 352 teams. There is an "All things FT shooting" thread that I have been keeping tabs on this if you go looking.

https://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/team/150

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Nope, I'm not wrong. NCAA.com (and you) are. Check out Sagarin. Check out schools stats for this season at "College Basketball at Sports Reference" The number grows a bit each year. Perhaps NCAA.com omits schools that newly entered D1 and aren't eligible for the main postseason tournaments.
 


cjbfbp said:
Nope, I'm not wrong. NCAA.com (and you) are. Check out Sagarin. Check out schools stats for this season at "College Basketball at Sports Reference" The number grows a bit each year. Perhaps NCAA.com omits schools that newly entered D1 and aren't eligible for the main postseason tournaments.
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NCAA.com only lists full members (which there are 352 of them). At the end of the day, it doesn't particularly matter how many there are - the Gophers FT shooting is terrible by any measure.

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cjbfbp said:
That's simply not true. We're not talking about jobs in general. We're talking about high level college basketball head coaching jobs (but the same things would be true of high level college football head coaching jobs).

Absent objectionable conduct, firing such a coach after two years is pretty rare. Yes, Claeys was fired quickly (after a pretty successful year) but he wasn't smart enough to keep his mouth shut so the administration made an example of him. Notice that Pitino didn't utter a peep when Reggie Lynch was suspended.

Three years is a different matter. You can find multiple examples of P6 coaches fired after three years.
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You may not have been talking about that, but I was talking about jobs in general.

I don't know what Reggie Lynch and Claeys have to do with my post. We can argue in another thread how I think both Pitino and Claeys did the right thing in their respective situations - but that has nothing to do with this thread.

If you're talking specifically about college basketball, it looks like we both agree that he deserves next season but he better produce next year.

If you notice, our timelines are the same - There aren't too many jobs on the planet that you can get hired and do worse than anyone has ever done in the history of the company and keep a job for three years.

One small nit with your argument is that you're comparing people who haven't done a great job with people who are "worse than anyone has ever done in the history of the company". Ben Johnson isn't just run of the mill bad (going 5-15; and 4-16 in conference). He is historically bad. There are few coaches who have ever done worse than him so far.
 

Bad Gopher said:
They might be trying to do too much or too complex. How many times have you heard this: a coach of a poorly-performing team decides to simplify things, and play improves. Isn't that how Joe Rossi improved the football defense miraculously, literally overnight?
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Not that I want to be a smart-alec, but the other side of that coin is look at the final 5 or so years of Glen Mason's tenure. It seemed like every offseason he was bringing in a new DC, and that person would say something like, "we're gonna simplify things, get these kids reacting instead of thinking" and then we'd be terrible on D as usual, Mason fires the D-coordinator, the next guy comes in, says the same thing....

Sometimes you just gotta realize your team doesn't have the horses.
 

Blackhammer said:
Not seeing the influx of talent . Do we even have a player who would start for another Big Ten team Maybe Garcia? Payne will eventually be a good player. Is Samuel your idea of talent or for now anyway Carrington . Throw Cooper in the mix and you have three guards who can absolutely not defend anyone.
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Payne is the only player worth getting excited about and Ben isn't even starting him. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he left after the season.
 



Dakota2 said:
You don't need to practice effort. You either bring it on game day or not. The coach either instills that ethic or he fails. Ben and Thorson did it in year 1. They failed year 2.

If Ben wants to keep this job long term, he needs to take a page from Fleck. PJ fired two friends to upgrade the team, Smith in 2018 and Sanford in '21. Ben needs to replace Thorson with a top notch assistant.

And he needs TT's scholarship along with Ramberg's.
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All the guys from last year came from different programs and already had their habits built.

Not sure if Ben can develop the work eithic part / good habits, although Payne and JOJ have natural motors.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
If there's no progress on the horizon, then patience is pointless and it's time to move on.

I'm also not buying the NIL argument for Evans decommitment. Kansas was the first P6 team to offer Evans a year ago, with Texas and Florida St also being involved, you don't think NIL was a factor then? We also know TCU was offering $$$ and he still signed here.

So now NIL is the driving factor 3 months after signing his LOI, while the Gophers are going through a historically bad season, with little hope on the horizon? Not a chance, but that's the easy and convenient narrative to continue to try and save face for a hire that was a massive mistake from day 1.
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I might have agreed with you until the crystal ball for Evans pointed toward Louisville. Their season has been as bad or worse. It's like I don't wanna play for the Bad News Bears, I wanna play for the Washington Generals. It's not an upgrade in any way. Unless.....$$$$.

I have no insider knowledge, but I do know Kansas is one of the schools that throws out literally dozens of offers, so I doubt the Evans offer was "committable" - they wait for someone from their plan A group of offers to commit before letting a plan B/C/D accept. And there's no NIL stuff for non-plan A until necessary.

But, having said all that, I'm not trying to use that to save face for Johnson - I truly believe this was a blessing in disguise, for whatever reason Evans decided to back out. Be zen. I never thought Evans was a net-positive for the long-term because of the domino-effect on the roster and PT. Payne was recruited over, and now he's not. Guys like Henley and TT, if they leave, can be replaced, and actually give an opportunity to position-balance the roster.
 

forever a gopher said:
NCAA.com only lists full members (which there are 352 of them). At the end of the day, it doesn't particularly matter how many there are - the Gophers FT shooting is terrible by any measure.

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It looks like the NCAA list is missing some teams. I don't see St. Thomas and a couple others.

I don't know why they left off certain teams and I've heard 352 all season. My guess is that their folks just used the NCAA site too.
 

Dakota2 said:
Didn't you hear the news? A top 20 recruit who chose to play for Ben Johnson at the U of M changed his mind because he did not want to waste time on a putrid team that was not improving.

Recap: Coach can recruit at high level; coach can't get effort or improvement on the floor.
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If the player never steps foot on campus/never plays a game for the Gophers...does the coach actually get credit for recruiting him? CBJ should get zero credit for recruiting Evans. He will play zero minutes for them. In fact, you could go further and say...the writing was on the wall and if CBJ actually knew about this in January (when Evans made up his mind), yet he didn't do anything and let this drag on...that's horrendous. He should've immediately released him from the LOI back in January and hustled to find a guard prospect or started the damage control (internal and external) a month ago.

Also, let's look at some of his other recruits:
-Cooper - not so great
-Samuels - terrible
-Carrington - not a B10 player, honestly, probably not even a Summit league player
-Payne - very good recruit
-JOJ - very good recruit
-Henley - more downs than ups, and if word on the street is right, he may be leaving....so can we actually say he is a good recruiter...
Christie - could be good, time will tell

Other players:
-Garcia - one could argue he would've come back no matter who the coach was due to proximity to family
-Battle - had a good last year but this year has been extremely disappointing, is an average B10 player
-Loewe - average at best B10 player
-Payton Willis - good B10 player, but he was a unique case as he previously played at the U, then transferred away...and then boomeranged back...
 
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formerlybis said:
I might have agreed with you until the crystal ball for Evans pointed toward Louisville. Their season has been as bad or worse. It's like I don't wanna play for the Bad News Bears, I wanna play for the Washington Generals. It's not an upgrade in any way. Unless.....$$$$.

I have no insider knowledge, but I do know Kansas is one of the schools that throws out literally dozens of offers, so I doubt the Evans offer was "committable" - they wait for someone from their plan A group of offers to commit before letting a plan B/C/D accept. And there's no NIL stuff for non-plan A until necessary.

But, having said all that, I'm not trying to use that to save face for Johnson - I truly believe this was a blessing in disguise, for whatever reason Evans decided to back out. Be zen. I never thought Evans was a net-positive for the long-term because of the domino-effect on the roster and PT. Payne was recruited over, and now he's not. Guys like Henley and TT, if they leave, can be replaced, and actually give an opportunity to position-balance the roster.
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I do understand the argument about Evans' fit and all of that. However, we do need a massive influx of talent and excitement and he at least symbolized that.

I think losing Henley could be a big deal. He was the closest thing (at times) to being a real wing. He is athletic enough to defend and handle the ball. He has been bad this year but has had moments where he shined on defense.

We need wings desperately and he is the closest thing to one I could squint and see contributing.
 

Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
If the player never steps foot on campus/never plays a game for the Gophers...does the coach actually get credit for recruiting him? CBJ should get zero credit for recruiting Evans. He will play zero minutes for them. In fact, you could go further and say...the writing was on the wall and if CBJ actually knew about this in January (when Evans made up his mind), yet he didn't do anything and let this drag on...that's horrendous. He should've immediately released him from the LOI back in January and hustled to find a guard prospect or started the damage control (internal and external) a month ago.

Also, let's look at some of his other recruits:
-Cooper - not so great
-Samuels - terrible
-Carrington - not a B10 player, honestly, probably not even a Summit league player
-Payne - very good recruit
-JOJ - very good recruit
-Henley - more downs than ups, and if word on the street is right, he may be leaving....so can we actually say he is a good recruiter...
Christie - could be good, time will tell

Other players:
-Garcia - one could argue he would've come back no matter who the coach was due to proximity to family
-Battle - had a good last year but this year has been extremely disappointing, is an average B10 player
-Loewe - average at best B10 player
-Payton Willis - good B10 player, but he was a unique case as he previously played at the U, then transferred away...and then boomeranged back...
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I'd give him partial credit.
 


Bob_Loblaw said:
You may not have been talking about that, but I was talking about jobs in general.

I don't know what Reggie Lynch and Claeys have to do with my post. We can argue in another thread how I think both Pitino and Claeys did the right thing in their respective situations - but that has nothing to do with this thread.

If you're talking specifically about college basketball, it looks like we both agree that he deserves next season but he better produce next year.

If you notice, our timelines are the same - There aren't too many jobs on the planet that you can get hired and do worse than anyone has ever done in the history of the company and keep a job for three years.

One small nit with your argument is that you're comparing people who haven't done a great job with people who are "worse than anyone has ever done in the history of the company". Ben Johnson isn't just run of the mill bad (going 5-15; and 4-16 in conference). He is historically bad. There are few coaches who have ever done worse than him so far.
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"You may not have been talking about that, but I was talking about jobs in general."

And why would you do that? Homespun but irrelevant analogies may get you a thumbs up from the unwashed but I didn't know you needed that.

"I don't know what Reggie Lynch and Claeys have to do with my post."

Don't play dumb.

This year isn't clearly the absolute worst in school history by a significant degree. Johnson's second year is similar in quality to Pitino's third year ( and not that much different from the last Monson year either). Johnson faced more difficult circumstances in his first two years than Pitino did.

Most often head coaches are not fired for performance reasons before the end of three years and I don't see why Johnson should be the test case for breaking that general tradition. Either you're just enjoying a little message board demagoguery or there is something else going on that makes you particularly resentful of Johnson.
 

cjbfbp said:
"You may not have been talking about that, but I was talking about jobs in general."

And why would you do that? Homespun but irrelevant analogies may get you a thumbs up from the unwashed but I didn't know you needed that.

"I don't know what Reggie Lynch and Claeys have to do with my post."

Don't play dumb.

This year isn't clearly the absolute worst in school history by a significant degree. Johnson's second year is similar in quality to Pitino's third year ( and not that much different from the last Monson year either). Johnson faced more difficult circumstances in his first two years than Pitino did.

Most often head coaches are not fired for performance reasons before the end of three years and I don't see why Johnson should be the test case for breaking that general tradition. Either you're just enjoying a little message board demagoguery or there is something else going on that makes you particularly resentful of Johnson.
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Why would I do that? Because I wanted to put it into perspective that I believe he has gotten a fair shake. I think he has gotten a fair shake if he gets canned after two years. In every other job, they wouldn't put up with this. We only do because it's customary. I know you're having a hard time with this, but you can compare the micro (comparisons to him and coaches hired in the same cycle) or you can compare the macro (broader - like any jobs anywhere).

As to your second post, I'm not playing dumb. You again brought up Reggie Lynch and Claeys and followed it with two paragraphs that have absolutely nothing to do with those situations. Nothing. I also cannot fathom what they could have to do with Ben Johnson.

BTW - holy sh!t you can't read. I have now said it three times directly to you that I don't think he will be canned before next season. You can't make an argument that you're not part of the unwashed and refuse to read. So go slowly - - - he will get a third season and I am fine with that. Now, read it again.

As to why Ben Johnson could be the "test case" for breaking a general tradition, it's because he has been worse than almost anyone who has ever done it. I already explained this. He is NOT run of the mill bad, he is historically bad.
 

howeda7 said:
Payne leaving would be grounds to reconsider giving Ben next year if I were Coyle.
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I have season tickets, so I would be extremely sad if Payne left. With that said...I would leave if I were him.

Ben should be starting him.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Why would I do that? Because I wanted to put it into perspective that I believe he has gotten a fair shake. I think he has gotten a fair shake if he gets canned after two years. In every other job, they wouldn't put up with this. We only do because it's customary. I know you're having a hard time with this, but you can compare the micro (comparisons to him and coaches hired in the same cycle) or you can compare the macro (broader - like any jobs anywhere).

As to your second post, I'm not playing dumb. You again brought up Reggie Lynch and Claeys and followed it with two paragraphs that have absolutely nothing to do with those situations. Nothing. I also cannot fathom what they could have to do with Ben Johnson.

BTW - holy sh!t you can't read. I have now said it three times directly to you that I don't think he will be canned before next season. You can't make an argument that you're not part of the unwashed and refuse to read. So go slowly - - - he will get a third season and I am fine with that. Now, read it again.

As to why Ben Johnson could be the "test case" for breaking a general tradition, it's because he has been worse than almost anyone who has ever done it. I already explained this. He is NOT run of the mill bad, he is historically bad.
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I can read....between the lines. "Johnson should be fired, but he won't be because......woke administration, black, blah blah, blah." I've read enough of your posts to know what animates you.

Claeys was an example of a rare quick firing but that wasn't performance related. He crossed the administration, they made an example of him, and I believe that had a chilling effect on people like Pitino when the administration struck again. Is that clear enough for you?

I've had experience following really bad college teams a number of times in my life. Once you get to a certain level, one or two fewer wins doesn't make much of a difference.
 

-I'd be shocked if Payne or JOJ left. Would be majorly disappointing.
-Also would be surprising if Garcia left unless deciding to go play overseas.
-Interesting the buzz about Battle leaving as that seems surprising to me too. Where's he going?
-Cooper might leave just to graduate but seems like he'll be back.
-Buzz around Henley leaving seems more likely he is not back.

I don't think it really matters unless Ben pulls in a massive haul of talent from the portal anyway. The coaching just isn't there.
 

cjbfbp said:
I can read....between the lines. "Johnson should be fired, but he won't be because......woke administration, black, blah blah, blah." I've read enough of your posts to know what animates you.

Claeys was an example of a rare quick firing but that wasn't performance related. He crossed the administration, they made an example of him, and I believe that had a chilling effect on people like Pitino when the administration struck again. Is that clear enough for you?

I've had experience following really bad college teams a number of times in my life. Once you get to a certain level, one or two fewer wins doesn't make much of a difference.
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You should focus more on trying to decipher the actual words that I type rather than trying to deduce anything.

Lets walk through your "logic". Do you think I would be "fine" with keeping Ben Johnson if it were only because of a "woke" administration? Does that sound like me? Nope. I believe he'll get three years because of the cost associated with firing him and it's a fairly standard practice. I don't think that "woke admin" cares anymore - they've moved on to their next project. I'm not afraid to post my opinions and you are not smart enough to deduce things that aren't spelled out for you.

Ok. Yeah, clearly people can get fired for things outside of performance. Was that ever in doubt? Did you think I didn't know that? Why shoehorn that into this conversation? Have I ever implied CBJ ran a dirty program? Get this, there have been coaches who didn't get three years because they got promoted too. Also ones who have died and lost their job. Do we need to run through every scenario on the planet?

Maybe to you the difference between run-of-the-mill bad and historically bad doesn't matter but there is a difference. They are not the same thing. It will take a lot of growth for our team to simply be "bad". Like we would need to improve a lot to become a 6-14 or 7-13 team.

For you, it doesn't matter. That's cool, that's your opinion. However, they aren't the same thing.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Maybe to you the difference between run-of-the-mill bad and historically bad doesn't matter but there is a difference. They are not the same thing. It will take a lot of growth for our team to simply be "bad". Like we would need to improve a lot to become a 6-14 or 7-13 team.
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Pitino had an 8 win season. The last Monson season was 9 wins. Clem's first season was 9 wins (and his second season was only 10 wins). Is Johnson's current season really so much worse than these? I don't think so. His first season was bad (13 wins) but there are multiple others that bad or worse in this program's history. I don't think the record after two years justifies breaking precedent.

The truth is that neither you nor anyone else can predict the exact amount of improvement that could occur in year three and, even if significant improvement doesn't occur in that year, Johnson is no less deserving than others of the 3rd year chance.
 

tikited said:
I have season tickets, so I would be extremely sad if Payne left. With that said...I would leave if I were him.

Ben should be starting him.
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Starting Payne means JOJ off the bench.
 

cjbfbp said:
Pitino had an 8 win season. The last Monson season was 9 wins. Clem's first season was 9 wins (and his second season was only 10 wins). Is Johnson's current season really so much worse than these? I don't think so. His first season was bad (13 wins) but there are multiple others that bad or worse in this program's history. I don't think the record after two years justifies breaking precedent.

The truth is that neither you nor anyone else can predict the exact amount of improvement that could occur in year three and, even if significant improvement doesn't occur in that year, Johnson is no less deserving than others of the 3rd year chance.
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Yes, he is way worse than them through their first two seasons. There has never been a coach at the U that has had a worse two year stretch. Richard Pitino never finished last. Clem Haskins never finished last. Ben Johnson has finished last in BOTH of his first two seasons. Monson finished last (tied for it) once, the second time he was rightfully canned. Remind me never to have you advocate for my job. The only example somewhat close to as bad as Ben Johnson is a guy who got canned. LOL. You can't make this up.

Of course I can't predict the exact amount of improvement that COULD occur. LOL. No sh!t. I can predict the amount of improvement that would be needed to make us a decent team - we might disagree on that but I can certainly predict it. Who do you think had been closer to right about Ben Johnson so far?

But yes, Johnson is less deserving of a third year. I think he'll get it and I can understand the argument for him getting it, but he is less deserving. We haven't seen anyone as bad as him. Even you could find one example of someone as bad as Johnson and that guy got canned. So he is less deserving of another season, he's been uniquely brutal.
 

formerlybis said:
I might have agreed with you until the crystal ball for Evans pointed toward Louisville. Their season has been as bad or worse. It's like I don't wanna play for the Bad News Bears, I wanna play for the Washington Generals. It's not an upgrade in any way. Unless.....$$$$.

I have no insider knowledge, but I do know Kansas is one of the schools that throws out literally dozens of offers, so I doubt the Evans offer was "committable" - they wait for someone from their plan A group of offers to commit before letting a plan B/C/D accept. And there's no NIL stuff for non-plan A until necessary.

But, having said all that, I'm not trying to use that to save face for Johnson - I truly believe this was a blessing in disguise, for whatever reason Evans decided to back out. Be zen. I never thought Evans was a net-positive for the long-term because of the domino-effect on the roster and PT. Payne was recruited over, and now he's not. Guys like Henley and TT, if they leave, can be replaced, and actually give an opportunity to position-balance the roster.
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Louisville is still Louisville, and despite their recent struggles, they're still in that tier just below blue blood status. A crystal ball is meaningless unless it turns into a commitment. And at least according to the recruiting sites today, he doesn't even have an offer yet.

Louisville is far worse than they should be this year, but it's still year 1 of a coach who's resume destroys Ben's, and a program with a ton of historical success and support. They have a young core who at worse is comparable to ours, and a recruiting class that's better than ours. Plus the transfer portal. Kenny Payne has plenty of hope to sell.

You may be right about Kansas, but it's also telling to me that no other blue bloods were in on Evans for how highly he ranks. But Evans still had NIL offers before signing, so I'll never believe that's the main reason he's leaving. I wasn't as high on Evans in the short term either, and never thought he'd move the needle much for next season. I think that'll be the case wherever he ends up.
 


FWIW - factors to remember: Ben Johnson is a MN native and a former Gopher player.

if he was NOT a MN native and a former Gopher player, I think there would be a better chance of his being fired after this season - buyout or no buyout.

But because he is a MN native and a former Gopher player, that buys Johnson a 3rd year at the very least.

However, if by this time next year, the team has 2 or 3 conference wins and attendance is in the tank, I think Johnson is gone. I would put the odds of that at 65-70%.
 


The U could fire Ben now and look good doing it vs firing him next with 5 conference wins. You’ll get the same complaints from the same people regardless. I like Coyle but that extension last year was dumb.
 

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