Still have faith in Pitino?

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cjbfbp said:
Auburn just hired Bruce Pearl last spring for $2 million a year. I'm not sure that's a worse job.
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Yes it is. They have plenty of football $ so they can probably pay more, but it's not a better job. And Cheatin' Bruce was not going to get anything better.
 

dpodoll68 said:
That season had to be good enough to get to the Tournament. I'm not discounting anything. I enjoyed winning games and getting to the Tournament. Oh, and also winning a game there. "One game" is better than "zero games". You'd rather have this season than the 2012-13 season? That "one game" is more Tournament wins than Pitino has won (or even coached in) for his entire career.



Gladly. You'd rather have this season than 3 Tournament appearances in 6 seasons?



Um, because they have to play the season in order to get to the Tournament? Were you not aware of that? Nobody gets an automatic bye or gets grandfathered in.



Fantastic. Pitino has done neither. Let me know when Pitino wins "one tournament game against a barely average team with no heart or discipline." Oh, that's right - he'd have to get there first.



The salary is a red herring. You'd all have run him out of town if he were getting paid $500 k.



Smith's Big Ten record through 2 seasons: 17-19 (.472)
Pitino's Big Ten record through (slightly less than) 2 seasons: 13-19 (.406)

If Smith's product was "brutal", what is Pitino's? Extra-brutal? Brutal-plus?
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You're absolutely right. Being a top 10 team, and crashing and burning for the last two months of every season was great to behold. Absolute success.

Years 4, 5, and 6 for Tubby had B1G records of 6-12, 6-12, and 8-10. MAN, what success. They barely scraped an NCAA bid his last year and got an absolute gift of a draw for their opening game. Thank the tournament committee before you thank any sort of coaching success.

Tubby's career record in the B1G was 46-62, .426 win percentage. So far on par with what Pitino has, but Pitino has a much smaller sample size as well. If Pitino has that level of success in a similar time frame, then he too will be gone.

Yes, Tubby's teams were brutal to watch. Standing around on offense, making no attempt to run a play or score a basket. Completely paralyzed by any sort of zone offense. I will gladly take the current play style than any more years of that.

I get that mediocrity is your gold standard, good for you. The rest of the Gopher fan base strives for more, that's why the coaching change was made. Tubby had hit his ceiling, so they took a risk and made a move to try to break through that ceiling. If your thinking is too narrow and one dimensional to see that point, then nobody can help you understand it.

"Better to shoot for the stars and miss than aim for the gutter and hit it."
 

howeda7 said:
No he couldn't. He could get a job at Auburn or LSU, etc. Just like Tubby could have. But he won't, because those are worse jobs than MN.
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LSU - the second most SEC titles in history; 20 NCAA appearances

Auburn - more NCAA tourney appearances than MN

Minnesota - Only Northwestern, Rutgers and Nebraska have fewer NCAA appearances; only Northwestern has fewer BT titles

LSU is a far better job. No contest.
 

So the Gophers have had one very ugly game (Northwestern), been blow out only once (hot shooting Indiana), lost two games soundly (Maryland, Louisville), and lost a bunch of close games that could have gone either way at the end. Flip two of the close games and they would be sitting (at 7-7) maybe a game behind where most of us thought they would be based on the poll that I did at the start of the conference season. They are literally a handful of possessions away from who we thought they were. However, we actually have people throwing in the towel on this administration. That is unbelievably short sighted, in my opinion.

This will come down to whether or not the guy can upgrade the talent. The 2015 class looks better than the 2014 class. The 2016 needs to be a step up, and so on. They just don't have the talent at this point to overcome a poor performance by Hollins.
 

mplarson7 said:
You're absolutely right. Being a top 10 team, and crashing and burning for the last two months of every season was great to behold. Absolute success.
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Nobody said any of those things. It's easy to win an argument when you make up the other person's statements for him.

I also enjoy where you think the "being a top 10 team" part is somehow an indictment. Remind me again when Pitino has had any of his teams in the top 10.

mplarson7 said:
They barely scraped an NCAA bid his last year and got an absolute gift of a draw for their opening game.
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Barely scraped = still got in. I'd rather barely scrape than not get there at all.

mplarson7 said:
Thank the tournament committee before you thank any sort of coaching success.
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That's what the Tournament committee is there for, to select the participants in the NCAA Tournament. The Gophers earned their bid and draw as much as anyone else. I thank a combination of coaching and playing for their appearance.

mplarson7 said:
Tubby's career record in the B1G was 46-62, .426 win percentage. So far on par with what Pitino has
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False.

mplarson7 said:
If Pitino has that level of success in a similar time frame, then he too will be gone.
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Pitino also needs to make 3 NCAA Tournament appearances in the next 4 years (and win at least one game) to match that level of success. Want to place a wager as to whether that happens?

mplarson7 said:
Yes, Tubby's teams were brutal to watch. Standing around on offense, making no attempt to run a play or score a basket. Completely paralyzed by any sort of zone offense. I will gladly take the current play style than any more years of that.
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Great, you'd rather be entertained and lose than be bored and win. I'll take the latter, 100 times out of 100. I'd rather win than lose, regardless of the entertainment value, but I guess that's just me.

mplarson7 said:
I get that mediocrity is your gold standard, good for you.
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False. Also, 3 Tournament appearances in 6 years had never before been done in the history of Minnesota basketball. Ever. It is certainly mediocre by national standards, but unprecedented success by Minnesota standards.

mplarson7 said:
Tubby had hit his ceiling
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Unprovable speculation and conjecture. What is provable up to this point is that our current coach's results are inferior to his predecessor's.

mplarson7 said:
So they took a risk and made a move to try to break through that ceiling
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What happened is that Teague fancies himself a basketball genius and wanted to hire his own coach. The decision to fire Tubby was made long before the end of the season. It was a risk, but only at the potential expense of Teague's ego and reputation.

mplarson7 said:
If your thinking is too narrow and one dimensional to see that point, then nobody can help you understand it.
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My thinking is far broader and more multi-dimensional than your brain is even capable of fathoming. I understand it perfectly. You'd rather all be entertained and lose than be bored and win. It's not surprising - most of this fan base has a loser's mentality in several sports, particularly so in men's basketball.

mplarson7 said:
"Better to shoot for the stars and miss than aim for the gutter and hit it."
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"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."
 


One more angle on Pitino: this is his first second year as a head coach. Not sure what that means, but that's the fact. In other words, he's never head coached the same team in consecutive years. It's an experience he's never had.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Nobody said any of those things. It's easy to win an argument when you make up the other person's statements for him.
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says the guy who made this up: "The worst coach in college basketball history took a 9-win team to the Tournament in his 2nd year." find me a single link where someone on this board other than you said he was the "The worst coach in college basketball history," otherwise it is hypocrisy as usual. man on internet once said it's easy to win an argument when you make up the other person's statements for him.
 

Bad Gopher said:
One more angle on Pitino: this is his first second year as a head coach. Not sure what that means, but that's the fact. In other words, he's never head coached the same team in consecutive years. It's an experience he's never had.
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Another experience he hasn't had is beating beating Northwestern at Williams Arena.

Trying to find levity in this maddening, disappointing season.

Can we just fast forward to Chicago?
 

dpodoll68 said:
Nobody said any of those things. It's easy to win an argument when you make up the other person's statements for him.

I also enjoy where you think the "being a top 10 team" part is somehow an indictment. Remind me again when Pitino has had any of his teams in the top 10.



Barely scraped = still got in. I'd rather barely scrape than not get there at all.



That's what the Tournament committee is there for, to select the participants in the NCAA Tournament. The Gophers earned their bid and draw as much as anyone else. I thank a combination of coaching and playing for their appearance.



False.



Pitino also needs to make 3 NCAA Tournament appearances in the next 4 years (and win at least one game) to match that level of success. Want to place a wager as to whether that happens?



Great, you'd rather be entertained and lose than be bored and win. I'll take the latter, 100 times out of 100. I'd rather win than lose, regardless of the entertainment value, but I guess that's just me.



False. Also, 3 Tournament appearances in 6 years had never before been done in the history of Minnesota basketball. Ever. It is certainly mediocre by national standards, but unprecedented success by Minnesota standards.



Unprovable speculation and conjecture. What is provable up to this point is that our current coach's results are inferior to his predecessor's.



What happened is that Teague fancies himself a basketball genius and wanted to hire his own coach. The decision to fire Tubby was made long before the end of the season. It was a risk, but only at the potential expense of Teague's ego and reputation.



My thinking is far broader and more multi-dimensional than your brain is even capable of fathoming. I understand it perfectly. You'd rather all be entertained and lose than be bored and win. It's not surprising - most of this fan base has a loser's mentality in several sports, particularly so in men's basketball.
 :)


"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."
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Actually college basketball is supposed to be entertainment dpdoll. Tubby's years are over and the proof of his greatness can be found in Lubbock. His years here were filled with hope but ended up being neither successful or entertaining. For many of us winning is not peaking out at 6th place and a .500 record. I'd rather accept a few years of rebuilding with at least the HOPE of winning in a bigger way. Pitino may not succeed, but he will give us a better effort than we saw from Tubby. As to you dp - you are a small thinker, miniscule. You always, always get stuck on the most anal of points. It is not your thinking that is big- it is your ego.
 



mplarson7 said:
You're absolutely right. Being a top 10 team, and crashing and burning for the last two months of every season was great to behold. Absolute success.

Years 4, 5, and 6 for Tubby had B1G records of 6-12, 6-12, and 8-10. MAN, what success. They barely scraped an NCAA bid his last year and got an absolute gift of a draw for their opening game. Thank the tournament committee before you thank any sort of coaching success.

Tubby's career record in the B1G was 46-62, .426 win percentage. So far on par with what Pitino has, but Pitino has a much smaller sample size as well. If Pitino has that level of success in a similar time frame, then he too will be gone.

Yes, Tubby's teams were brutal to watch. Standing around on offense, making no attempt to run a play or score a basket. Completely paralyzed by any sort of zone offense. I will gladly take the current play style than any more years of that.

I get that mediocrity is your gold standard, good for you. The rest of the Gopher fan base strives for more, that's why the coaching change was made. Tubby had hit his ceiling, so they took a risk and made a move to try to break through that ceiling. If your thinking is too narrow and one dimensional to see that point, then nobody can help you understand it.

"Better to shoot for the stars and miss than aim for the gutter and hit it."
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+1, well said. Don't understand how people still are pissy about firing Flubby
 


Go4 said:
"people" aren't. just one person.
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I've seen plenty of others say something along the lines of wanting Tubby back on this board, maybe not on this thread...
 




mcal24 said:
+1, well said. Don't understand how people still are pissy about firing Flubby
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Com-cool (who I think posts over on the football board mostly) once said to me regarding Brewster being worse than Mason that "the problem wasn't that we fired Mason, it was that we hired Brewster". I certainly hope I don't end up feeling the same way about Tubby-Pitino. At this point, Pitino's performance has been close enough to Tubby's through two seasons that I don't feel like I want to really label one as better than the other. But after Pitino has 4, 5, or 6 years under his belt, I am definitely going to be comparing Pitino's track record to Tubby's, both in terms of B1G and postseason success. I am intrigued enough by some of the guys Pitino has signed for next year that I am curious to see what comes next, but if we don't see some improved teams (and by improved, I mean better B1G records, qualifying and advancing in the NCAA tournament, not some nebulous "well, it doesn't show in the record, but you can see the improvement" crap), Pitino's stay won't be any longer than Tubby's was. The proof will be in the proverbial pudding. If Pitino is a good coach, he will need to show it with on court results.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
Com-cool (who I think posts over on the football board mostly) once said to me regarding Brewster being worse than Mason that "the problem wasn't that we fired Mason, it was that we hired Brewster". I certainly hope I don't end up feeling the same way about Tubby-Pitino. At this point, Pitino's performance has been close enough to Tubby's through two seasons that I don't feel like I want to really label one as better than the other. But after Pitino has 4, 5, or 6 years under his belt, I am definitely going to be comparing Pitino's track record to Tubby's, both in terms of B1G and postseason success. I am intrigued enough by some of the guys Pitino has signed for next year that I am curious to see what comes next, but if we don't see some improved teams (and by improved, I mean better B1G records, qualifying and advancing in the NCAA tournament, not some nebulous "well, it doesn't show in the record, but you can see the improvement" crap), Pitino's stay won't be any longer than Tubby's was. The proof will be in the proverbial pudding. If Pitino is a good coach, he will need to show it with on court results.
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Agree with about everything you said. I think it's way too early to get overly concerned though. A loss is a loss, but we could easily be sitting at 7-7 or better right now. Pitino has had not even 2 recruiting classes and when you completely change the system, it will take more than that. Be patient.
 

dpodoll68 said:
I also enjoy where you think the "being a top 10 team" part is somehow an indictment.

Care to find where I said that? Because I didn't. You probably shouldn't make up things that I said. The indictment is having a team playing that well, then having the wheels fall off the bus. Every season.

Barely scraped = still got in. I'd rather barely scrape than not get there at all.

Good for you...I guess. I'd much rather have a team be a real threat year in and year out.

False.

A 40% win percentage isn't comparable to a 42% win percentage? Curious.

Pitino also needs to make 3 NCAA Tournament appearances in the next 4 years (and win at least one game) to match that level of success. Want to place a wager as to whether that happens?

Somehow I expect you won't be happy with Pitino regardless, so that point is moot.

Great, you'd rather be entertained and lose than be bored and win. I'll take the latter, 100 times out of 100. I'd rather win than lose, regardless of the entertainment value, but I guess that's just me.

False. Didn't say that. Why are you putting words in my mouth?

False. Also, 3 Tournament appearances in 6 years had never before been done in the history of Minnesota basketball. Ever. It is certainly mediocre by national standards, but unprecedented success by Minnesota standards.

And why be satisfied with that? There is not a single reason that Minnesota can't be better than that.

What happened is that Teague fancies himself a basketball genius and wanted to hire his own coach.

He's more well-connected and knowledgeable than anyone on this board.

The decision to fire Tubby was made long before the end of the season.

Yep, because he was once again crashing and burning. Started the season 15-1, 3-0 in conference and went 5-11 the rest of the way during the regular season. Yet again.

My thinking is far broader and more multi-dimensional than your brain is even capable of fathoming.

False. Why make statements that you can't prove?

It's not surprising - most of this fan base has a loser's mentality in several sports

Including yourself.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."

Solid advice. Perhaps you should follow it yourself?
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Keep spinning your wheels buddy, the Tubby ship sailed a long time ago. Time for you to get over it.
 

mcal24 said:
Agree with about everything you said. I think it's way too early to get overly concerned though. A loss is a loss, but we could easily be sitting at 7-7 or better right now. Pitino has had not even 2 recruiting classes and when you completely change the system, it will take more than that. Be patient.
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I am always pretty upset after losses with my favorite sports teams. I agree with what you are saying about recruiting classes and changing the system, and I certainly don't want to sound like I don't like what Pitino has been doing on the recruiting trail this year. I think he is getting the right kind of guys who will work well in the system he wants to play. Unfortunately, I am too jaded by too many years of Wild/Gophers/Vikings/Twins/Timberwolves breaking my heart to get too excited about recruits or "next year" until I actually see the results come out.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
I am always pretty upset after losses with my favorite sports teams. I agree with what you are saying about recruiting classes and changing the system, and I certainly don't want to sound like I don't like what Pitino has been doing on the recruiting trail this year. I think he is getting the right kind of guys who will work well in the system he wants to play. Unfortunately, I am too jaded by two many years of Wild/Gophers/Vikings/Twins/Timberwolves breaking my heart to get too excited about recruits or "next year" until I actually see the results come out.
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Hey, this is Minnesota, being mediocre is what we do best! Wild are the only team that currently have the chance to be above average.
 

Gophers went into this season with: 2nd year coach (presumably knows players better and has had entire season + off-season to install his system)
4 Returning Starters
2 Senior Starters in the backcourt
a senior Center that some people on this board have called one of the better offensive big men in the B1G
A freshman guard I think we all like in Mason.
A Juco recruit that at least some people were excited about in Squirrel Morris.

And out of all that, we (the fans) get to watch a team that poops its pants in close games; cannot box out; and goes through the same 'dead zones' on offense that the Tubby-haters used to scream about.

I'm NOT saying that Pitino can't coach - I'm NOT calling for him to be fired - but I am pretty darn disappointed.
 

MaroonGold1 said:
Top 15 job???? Lets see, here's a quick list... Which of these schools is Pitino leaving for this spring? Duke UNC Louisville Kansas Arizona Michigan St Ohio St. Indiana Syracuse UCLA Kentucky Florida Texas Villanova Michigan
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We are arguing a hypothetical (it's the internet, after all!) but I'd bet that if Syracuse, UCLA or Texas opened up they would look at him. He has a great brand, he's well connected and he's very personable. He can explain this season. A year from now he would have a much tougher time explaining things if the poor outcomes are repeated.
 


These last two loses have been as painful as any that I have experienced as a Gopher fan. And don't tell me that I must not have been a fan very long. I've been a fan since the 1950s. It's understandable that people are frustrated and concerned. The question, though, is where is this program headed. We have a very young and inexperienced coach. He had a good deal of success his first two years as a head coach, and his team this year has been competitive in most games until now. Plus, I've been very impressed with his communication skills. My sense is that long term he will mature into a very successful coach. How long that will take will depend in large measure on how successfully he is able to recruit. I'm encouraged by his 2015 commits, though, I think he will need to take recruiting to yet another level to reach the levels most of us seek, and this year's disappointing season will not help in that regard. We'll see how well he is able to sell this vision of the future. In any event, I think Coach Pitino has demonstrated enough potential that he deserves our continued support. Time will tell whether the program is making progress under his leadership. At this point, I think it is to early to reach any conclusion in that regard.
 


bleedsmaroonandgold said:
Com-cool (who I think posts over on the football board mostly) once said to me regarding Brewster being worse than Mason that "the problem wasn't that we fired Mason, it was that we hired Brewster". I certainly hope I don't end up feeling the same way about Tubby-Pitino. At this point, Pitino's performance has been close enough to Tubby's through two seasons that I don't feel like I want to really label one as better than the other. But after Pitino has 4, 5, or 6 years under his belt, I am definitely going to be comparing Pitino's track record to Tubby's, both in terms of B1G and postseason success. I am intrigued enough by some of the guys Pitino has signed for next year that I am curious to see what comes next, but if we don't see some improved teams (and by improved, I mean better B1G records, qualifying and advancing in the NCAA tournament, not some nebulous "well, it doesn't show in the record, but you can see the improvement" crap), Pitino's stay won't be any longer than Tubby's was. The proof will be in the proverbial pudding. If Pitino is a good coach, he will need to show it with on court results.
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This is a very silly comparison. To very loosely paraphrase and flip a famous quote:
We saw Tim Brewster, we worked with Tim Brewster; Sir, Richard Pitino is no Tim Brewster
 

vagopher said:
These last two loses have been as painful as any that I have experienced as a Gopher fan. And don't tell me that I must not have been a fan very long. I've been a fan since the 1950s. It's understandable that people are frustrated and concerned. The question, though, is where is this program headed. We have a very young and inexperienced coach. He had a good deal of success his first two years as a head coach, and his team this year has been competitive in most games until now. Plus, I've been very impressed with his communication skills. My sense is that long term he will mature into a very successful coach. How long that will take will depend in large measure on how successfully he is able to recruit. I'm encouraged by his 2015 commits, though, I think he will need to take recruiting to yet another level to reach the levels most of us seek, and this year's disappointing season will not help in that regard. We'll see how well he is able to sell this vision of the future. In any event, I think Coach Pitino has demonstrated enough potential that he deserves our continued support. Time will tell whether the program is making progress under his leadership. At this point, I think it is to early to reach any conclusion in that regard.
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+19

Edit: And it makes no sense to compare him to Tubby. Tubby was canned because the AD didn't like the direction of the program. Coach P will be judged on his own merits.
 

Let's not forget what happened at the beginning of the season when Lavine got dismissed, McNeil got arrested and was off the team, and Martin transferred. I am not saying with those guys on the team we would be any better (Martin was not looking so good but McNeil was) but it would have been more depth and would have given Hollins, Mathieu, Mason more time on the bench to rest up. One thing I noticed about this team especially during those games where they blew 10 point leads was that they simply got tired at the end and Mason Mathieu and especially Hollins would be out there way longer than they should have. The Gophers would start out every game very fast and then would slow down because they would get tired due to not having enough rest throughout the game. I know Lavine was good and would have added good depth and play making on the court and McNeil was getting a lot better and it was a bummer what happened to them especially McNeil because he was improving very well.
 

TrueGopherFballfan#1 said:
Let's not forget what happened at the beginning of the season when Lavine got dismissed, McNeil got arrested and was off the team, and Martin transferred. I am not saying with those guys on the team we would be any better (Martin was not looking so good but McNeil was) but it would have been more depth and would have given Hollins, Mathieu, Mason more time on the bench to rest up. One thing I noticed about this team especially during those games where they blew 10 point leads was that they simply got tired at the end and Mason Mathieu and especially Hollins would be out there way longer than they should have. The Gophers would start out every game very fast and then would slow down because they would get tired due to not having enough rest throughout the game. I know Lavine was good and would have added good depth and play making on the court and McNeil was getting a lot better and it was a bummer what happened to them especially McNeil because he was improving very well.
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I think you mean Lofton. Lavine plays for the Wolves.

I do agree that fatigue may have something to do with end-of-game performances, but Lofton wouldn't have played anyway as he had to sit out. Pitino has reduced the minutes of his guards somewhat by starting three forwards in recent games but if he wants to give them a bit more of a break, he is simply going to have to play Morris more than he has recently. I agree that Morris can be frustrating but he does have some talent, has had some very good games for us this year, and he should be playing more than 11 minutes a game.

As for Martin, I'm glad he transferred when he did because that gave the staff a long time to scout for a replacement.
 

SelectionSunday said:
Another experience he hasn't had is beating beating Northwestern at Williams Arena.

Trying to find levity in this maddening, disappointing season.

Can we just fast forward to Chicago?
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When I was a kid, a down and out Northwestern team came to Williams and pulled a late season upset on a pretty good Gopher team. They are professional spoilers and it has happened more times than I care to remember, basketball as well as football. By next week the Mildcats wilk be losing again, content that they delivered chaos to Iowa and Minnesota.
 

Not even a remote possibility at any of those schools. You need to take a crap program to a sweet 16 or a good program further. He is very fortunate to get the Gopher job. This may turn out to be the right place for him. Give it some time. Shaka, Archie Miller, Tony Bennett are way ahead of anyone else on any kind of list. Bennett is never leaving UVA. Syracuse has a succession model. Shaka is waiting for North Carolina but could look at Texas. Ucla wants Bennett but he would never do it. There is a huge gap between Tony Bennett and Pitino. He can win here if given time. A NIT title has never paved the way to a better job !
 

mplarson7 said:
You're absolutely right. Being a top 10 team, and crashing and burning for the last two months of every season was great to behold. Absolute success.

Years 4, 5, and 6 for Tubby had B1G records of 6-12, 6-12, and 8-10. MAN, what success. They barely scraped an NCAA bid his last year and got an absolute gift of a draw for their opening game. Thank the tournament committee before you thank any sort of coaching success.

Tubby's career record in the B1G was 46-62, .426 win percentage. So far on par with what Pitino has, but Pitino has a much smaller sample size as well. If Pitino has that level of success in a similar time frame, then he too will be gone.

Yes, Tubby's teams were brutal to watch. Standing around on offense, making no attempt to run a play or score a basket. Completely paralyzed by any sort of zone offense. I will gladly take the current play style than any more years of that.

I get that mediocrity is your gold standard, good for you. The rest of the Gopher fan base strives for more, that's why the coaching change was made. Tubby had hit his ceiling, so they took a risk and made a move to try to break through that ceiling. If your thinking is too narrow and one dimensional to see that point, then nobody can help you understand it.

"Better to shoot for the stars and miss than aim for the gutter and hit it."
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I don't want to make this an argument about Tubby, but the B1G in Tubby's years was way better than it is this year. Tubby also had to deal with some bad injuries in some of those years. The Nolen injury killed a pretty good team and mbakwe's injury the next year killed another promising start. If Pitino had lost Hollins this year we might not have more than a game in the B1G this year!!!!

Despite that....what makes me more concerned about Pitino is I think next year is even more bleak!!!! I hear everyone talking about how great this class is.....ITS AN AVERAGE B1G recruiting class!!!! You throw out the top three classes....usually MSU, OSU and either Indiana, Michigan or Illinois....and the bottom three....usually PSU, Rutgers and NW...and the rest are all about then same. The class is fine....but it's not a program changer.....and it's very similar to most of the other teams in the B1G.
 

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