Why would you keep Pitino?

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MaxyJR1

MaxyJR1

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I go back and forth on whether it's time to move on or not. What are reasons to keep Pitino? I don't necessarily believe some of the things I'm posting.

1. Still a young and learning coach
2. Bringing in a nice 2020 class
3. Competitive even with early departures and injuries

other thoughts of support?
 

Like some others, I'm curious how good the team could be next year if Oturu stays and Carr matures as a point guard, along with the addition of the talented newcomers and Curry potentially contributing. That team would make the NCAAs no matter who was coaching them. Besides, Pitino has good teams every other year, and next year is his year.

OK, so that's my argument. I'm still not buying it in the grander scheme of things, though. In any workplace in any walk of life, you want a key employee to be better than just barely good enough to keep his job, which is the category I put Richard in based on his tenure here.
 

Richard is a great guy, the apple fell far from the tree, but it's probably time to move on after this many years and try a Craig Smith.
 

At the risk of this becoming the "why would I not keep Pitino" thread, this is the counterpoint to my post above:


The roster construction is just a mess. The comments and replies below the tweet are as key as the tweet. One center on the whole roster, and Coffey staying and Curry being available wouldn't have changed that; Curry is simply not a 5. And that one center is a huge flight risk. The whole thing is just a house of cards, and it won't be much better balanced next year no matter what.
 

It seems like every year, for Gopher basketball, we hear about how "next year" is going to be better. But, after 7 years, the "next year" argument is wearing pretty darn thin.

One question Coyle has to answer - If Pitino returns, can they sell tickets and market this team to advertisers and donors? Or are they looking at a half-empty Barn and diminishing financial returns?

The Men's BB program needs a shot in the arm. Bringing in a new coach could potentially provide that. it may not be entirely fair to Pitino, but last time I checked, life isn't always fair.
 


I'm in support of moving on at the end of the season if Coyle has a name in mind.

To answer the OP, because we are not a terrible program but an average program in the B1G. It feels very similar to the Kill era, we are not the doormat, but also never going to win the big games.

Pitino has absolutely grown a lot since we hired him and I feel pretty strongly that we will finish right around .500 in the conference with him at the helm with the occasional top 6 finish. He's a decent recruiter and I think he will fit really nicely at a mid major out east and I'd bet a lot of money he makes the tourney a few more times at his next stop. He's not a terrible coach like some on here seem to think.

For me though, I don't want celing to be the second round of the tourney. I wanna make sweet 16s and finish top 3 in the conference on occasion.
 

First of all, I trust Coyle, so if he thinks he can bring in the bb version of Fleck, I'm all for it and I'll wish the absolute best and future success to our young Pitino and I'll feel badly as I think he's trying his darnest to make something work here. So now my contribution to why we should keep him around...

Looking at the Top Gopher Recruits of the 247 era, so over a 20 year period, fully 33% of the Top 18 of that 20+ year period could be on next year's roster.

#3 Oturu,
#8 Mashburn,
#9 Ihnen,
#15 Curry,
#16 Williams,
#18 Mitchell.

And the Pitino's only recruit of the 2021 class, so far, would come in at #7 and bump all of them down a spot other than Oturu, and Pitino also just lost the #4 recruit of the 21st Century early to the NBA, which may not help this year's team, but it shows recruits you can come here and end up in the NBA.
 


Bad Gopher said:
At the risk of this becoming the "why would I not keep Pitino" thread, this is the counterpoint to my post above:


The roster construction is just a mess. The comments and replies below the tweet are as key as the tweet. One center on the whole roster, and Coffey staying and Curry being available wouldn't have changed that; Curry is simply not a 5. And that one center is a huge flight risk. The whole thing is just a house of cards, and it won't be much better balanced next year no matter what.
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I don't get how any one can look at this roster and not agree. This is the 2nd year where we played with no PG & we got project freshmen that we don't know if they will develop enough to be ready next year. We are assuming Mashburn is ready made but we really have no clue with him being a true freshmen
 



MaxyJR1 said:
I go back and forth on whether it's time to move on or not. What are reasons to keep Pitino? I don't necessarily believe some of the things I'm posting.

1. Still a young and learning coach
2. Bringing in a nice 2020 class
3. Competitive even with early departures and injuries

other thoughts of support?
Click to expand...

7 years of overall mediocrity sums up the Pitino tenure. The team has flat out given up this year as you can see over the past 5/6 games being losses. This seems to happen too often in the Pitino era. He's never recruited a pure shooter either. In this day and age you need a few pure shooters on your team. I wouldn't call Gabe a pure shooter as he's been among the worst shooting guards (offensively) in the BIG this season. And, depth? It doesn't exist with Pitino. We have had a D2 bench for several years now. Time to move on. There is new blood out there and this team could sure use a fresh start. How much worse could a new coach even do? This season looked promising and I was actually raving a bit about Pitino's coaching under the circumstances. That's all moot now.
 

GopherPlaya said:
I don't get how any one can look at this roster and not agree. This is the 2nd year where we played with no PG & we got project freshmen that we don't know if they will develop enough to be ready next year. We are assuming Mashburn is ready made but we really have no clue with him being a true freshmen
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You don't consider Carr a PG?
 

Be careful what you wish for.
Ticket prices were raised when the product was stale so declining fans is only partially Little Ricky's fault.
Is there money for a star hire? It is not a program with a cachet to attract a star without a lot of $$$.
One and dones are not staying at WI either but Gard somehow gets some decent players from MN.
Whose fault is that and why?
I bet Coyle waits another year to decide and hunt for a possible replacement.
 

Because good programs don't have a new coaching search every five years or so and pray that this time it will surely be the right move. We can keep resetting back to square one every few years by hiring a new coach or keep a coach around and have some stability.
 



Plato said:
Be careful what you wish for.
Ticket prices were raised when the product was stale so declining fans is only partially Little Ricky's fault.
Is there money for a star hire? It is not a program with a cachet to attract a star without a lot of $$$.
One and dones are not staying at WI either but Gard somehow gets some decent players from MN.
Whose fault is that and why?
I bet Coyle waits another year to decide and hunt for a possible replacement.
Click to expand...
Those both seem like Pitino's fault to me.
 


GopherPlaya said:
Yes but he is definitely not a PG that you can consistently get a flow to the game. He is a shoot first PG
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Like every PG in the country. That is what PGs are now, unless they simply suck at shooting like Tum Tum or Rajon Rondo.

Tre Jones, a very good PG, takes 13 shots per game while averaging 6.5 assists. Marcus Carr takes 13 shots per game while averaging 6.7 assists. Jones shoots better (albeit not by a ton, and in a weaker conference) but man...those stats seem pretty similar.

Not sure you can name a PG as good as Carr who doesn't shoot much and gets into the flow of the game.
 

UpAndUnder43 said:
Like every PG in the country. That is what PGs are now, unless they simply suck at shooting like Tum Tum or Rajon Rondo.

Tre Jones, a very good PG, takes 13 shots per game while averaging 6.5 assists. Marcus Carr takes 13 shots per game while averaging 6.7 assists. Jones shoots better (albeit not by a ton, and in a weaker conference) but man...those stats seem pretty similar.

Not sure you can name a PG as good as Carr who doesn't shoot much and gets into the flow of the game.
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Tre Jones doesn't dribble the air out of the ball every possession. That is my biggest issue with Carr. Gabe percentages are down because Carr hits him way too late with passes and he shoots all contested shots instead of open looks.
 

I don't know if I can live without the informative coach's show where Grimm and Gaard grill Pitino with hard-hitting questions about how much his kids play in the snow or what kind of snacks he ate during the Super Bowl.
 

You wouldn't. This "if everything had gone perfectly we would have been decent" argument gets so old. It will never go perfect. There will always be injuries, transfers and guys who leave early. Which is why you can't have 4 scholarships taken up by guys like Brady Rudrud, Greenlee, Freeman and Hurt. Curry should be the 13th guy next year that if you get anything, great, if not, OK. Omersa should be #12. As it is they will both be in the top 8.

If Oturu leaves, the ceiling for next year is to be no worse than this year. If he doesn't leave, probably an 8-10 seed in the NCAA's. But we'll still be one Carr or Oturu ankle twist away from disaster.
 

After last night, I'm probably closer to calling for a change than I ever have but I would put it this way.....

We made a mistake in hiring a guy with so little experience at a job this tough. At that time, we had garbage facilities, a really mediocre roster, a bad AD, and a very long history of mediocre to horrible results on the court. He was left with a freshman and sophomore class of underwhelming recruits and a number of openings to try to fill late in the recruiting cycle. It would have been a very difficult transition for anybody to walk into and have immediate success. He had some early success but compounded the problem by trying to recruit to Florida/Louisville standards and had to settle for Konate/Diedhiou level recruits. He also made a couple early mistakes on Dorsey/Martin/Morris which didn't help things and ultimately led to a bottoming out in year three.

The three years prior to this year would all have been tournament teams if not for a really awful set of circumstances in year five with the Lynch suspension and injuries to Curry, Coffey, McBrayer, and a hobbled Mason. Every team has injuries. I get that. But his fifth year was unbelievable. I am making no excuses for any of the other years. ONLY YEAR FIVE. If he had made the tournament after the fifth year and would have been on a run of three years in a row, it would have been stupid to talk about letting him go given how few tournament appearances this program has enjoyed. This year was always going to be a transition year when you start the year having only 3 players that have even seen the court in a Gopher uniform. Had he been on a three year run of tournament appearances and hopefully another win or two, this year's result would have been acceptable, in my view.

He has recruited better than people give him credit for since the first couple recruiting cycles. Too many people latch on to the handful of Minnesota kids that have achieved success elsewhere and rarely mention the out-of-state players (or in-state for that matter) that have succeeded here. Many blame him for not landing more players with MN zip codes. However, the fan base as a whole kinda sucks right now, to be honest. We get 9000 fans for a Big Ten game now and routinely hear excuses about the start time of the games, or the frequent call reviews, or the length of games, or the bad parking, or the game day experience, or any of a number of other excuses. Why would a prospective MN kid have some sort of inherent bias to staying at home when this is the current state of the fan base/program? That isn't all on Pitino.

Would I make the move? Maybe. I'm not sure. We still seem to have other issues at this program that hasn't allowed us to move forward. Start with finding a way to put 14000 people in the stands that want to be there.
 

mcal24 said:
Because good programs don't have a new coaching search every five years or so and pray that this time it will surely be the right move. We can keep resetting back to square one every few years by hiring a new coach or keep a coach around and have some stability.
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Good programs don't have a new coaching search every five years or so because they have good coaches, which is why they are a good program. We have neither a good program nor a good coach right now, so the point is moot.
 

Why would I keep Pitino?

Consistency- (I laughed writing this)
Recruits? - Mashburn is toast if Pitino goes, right?

Nope, can't help you find a good reason. He should of had another tournament run in year five and a possible top 4 finish in the conference without Reggie and the injuries, but it didn't happen.

The only good thing I can think of to say is it appears his staff has done a good job of teaching defense this year. Too bad they can't score.
 

Bad Gopher said:
At the risk of this becoming the "why would I not keep Pitino" thread, this is the counterpoint to my post above:


The roster construction is just a mess. The comments and replies below the tweet are as key as the tweet. One center on the whole roster, and Coffey staying and Curry being available wouldn't have changed that; Curry is simply not a 5. And that one center is a huge flight risk. The whole thing is just a house of cards, and it won't be much better balanced next year no matter what.
Click to expand...
I've been saying that for a few years now. His rosters are always a disaster. Little quality after the first two guys. One injury away from calamity. No balance. No bench, etc..
 

golfing18now said:
After last night, I'm probably closer to calling for a change than I ever have but I would put it this way.....

We made a mistake in hiring a guy with so little experience at a job this tough. At that time, we had garbage facilities, a really mediocre roster, a bad AD, and a very long history of mediocre to horrible results on the court. He was left with a freshman and sophomore class of underwhelming recruits and a number of openings to try to fill late in the recruiting cycle. It would have been a very difficult transition for anybody to walk into and have immediate success. He had some early success but compounded the problem by trying to recruit to Florida/Louisville standards and had to settle for Konate/Diedhiou level recruits. He also made a couple early mistakes on Dorsey/Martin/Morris which didn't help things and ultimately led to a bottoming out in year three.

The three years prior to this year would all have been tournament teams if not for a really awful set of circumstances in year five with the Lynch suspension and injuries to Curry, Coffey, McBrayer, and a hobbled Mason. Every team has injuries. I get that. But his fifth year was unbelievable. I am making no excuses for any of the other years. ONLY YEAR FIVE. If he had made the tournament after the fifth year and would have been on a run of three years in a row, it would have been stupid to talk about letting him go given how few tournament appearances this program has enjoyed. This year was always going to be a transition year when you start the year having only 3 players that have even seen the court in a Gopher uniform. Had he been on a three year run of tournament appearances and hopefully another win or two, this year's result would have been acceptable, in my view.

He has recruited better than people give him credit for since the first couple recruiting cycles. Too many people latch on to the handful of Minnesota kids that have achieved success elsewhere and rarely mention the out-of-state players (or in-state for that matter) that have succeeded here. Many blame him for not landing more players with MN zip codes. However, the fan base as a whole kinda sucks right now, to be honest. We get 9000 fans for a Big Ten game now and routinely hear excuses about the start time of the games, or the frequent call reviews, or the length of games, or the bad parking, or the game day experience, or any of a number of other excuses. Why would a prospective MN kid have some sort of inherent bias to staying at home when this is the current state of the fan base/program? That isn't all on Pitino.

Would I make the move? Maybe. I'm not sure. We still seem to have other issues at this program that hasn't allowed us to move forward. Start with finding a way to put 14000 people in the stands that want to be there.
Click to expand...
If he really did recruit better than people give credit for, why was this always going to be a transition year?
 

USAF said:
If he really did recruit better than people give credit for, why was this always going to be a transition year?
Click to expand...

This was going to be a transition year based on how the roster is currently constructed. He literally has one senior and one junior on the roster that play. I don't think Minnesota will ever be a school that can throw out a line-up of freshman and sophomores and compete for a conference championship, regardless of who the coach happens to be.

His senior class should have been Curry/Coffey/Hurt. Coffey's departure and Curry's injuries certainly changed the complexion of that class but I can't fault Pitino for either of those. Hurt hasn't been a great use of a scholarship but most on here would have taken him given his brother was the bigger fish.

His junior class definitely has hurt the team's depth. IW is the biggest disappointment of the Pitino tenure from a player perspective. I'm not sure what happened to Harris. Obviously both of these are on Pitino.

His sophomore class consisted of the second, third, and fourth ranked Minnesota players of that class. We all love Minnesota kids. Then he added a starting point guard to the mix.

It's too early to cast judgement on the freshman class. I think Ihnen and Williams will be decent players. I'm intrigued by Freeman in his very limited role. I'm not a fan of Greenlee. But too early to tell.

My point is all the talent on this roster is in the freshman and sophomore classes. Most power five schools would struggle given this construct. I suppose some of that is due to attrition and bad luck and some would be on Pitino.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
I go back and forth on whether it's time to move on or not. What are reasons to keep Pitino? I don't necessarily believe some of the things I'm posting.

1. Still a young and learning coach
2. Bringing in a nice 2020 class
3. Competitive even with early departures and injuries

other thoughts of support?
Click to expand...

1. "Still a young and learning coach"

What evidence is there that he is learning? He had his only winning conference season in his 4th season and he's now in his 7th season. In his 7th year his team just played arguably its two worst games of the season (certainly its 2 worst B1G games of the season) in must win situations at home. His team is regressing this season. Recruiting, especially in-state, has also declined. He landed top 50 Daniel Oturu 3 classes ago and has completely whiffed in the last two classes.

2. "Bringing in a nice 2020 class"

Depending on your source of choice, at least 4-5 Minnesota kids are rated higher than Mashburn and at least 5 are rated higher than Mitchell. Striking out on all these kids is a MAJOR red flag so recruiting is a strange place to make an argument for Pitino. Mashburn is a solid recruit, but opinions on Mitchell vary wildly. The only consensus on Mitchell is that he's a project that will take a couple of years to be a significant contributor.

3. "Competitive even with early departures and injuries"

This might be even more ridiculous than the other 2 "reasons" ( I know you said you didn't necessarily believe these, but some people do). Pitino has had ONE early departure in 6 years, that should be a strike against him...he should have more! To complain about Amir Coffey leaving (and after his Junior season no less) is ridiculous. You want to put players in the pros, that's a significant part of attracting recruits and building a brand. Other programs in the B1G to have at least one kid leave early in the past few years: Iowa, Penn State, and Rutgers. To not be prepared for Coffey to leave is an indictment on Pitino, not a reason for pity.

Iowa lost much more than Minnesota this year: Cook left early to the NBA, Moss grad transferred to Kansas and Bohanon suffered a season ending hip injury. What possible excuse is there to be worse than that team? There is none.

Penn State played the Gophers last week without their second leading scorer and beat us. The only Gopher to miss time this year has been Payton Willis. Iowa beat the Gophers this week without a key starter and only 7 or 8 scholarship players...they put a walk on in the game. If you were counting on Eric Curry after all the injuries he's had, that's just unacceptable...and wouldn't address the Gophers shooting/scoring woes anyway.

Michigan lost at least two players to the NBA early, lost their coach, and Isaiah Livers has missed most of the season. First year coach Juwan Howard has them in the tournament and ahead of the Gophers in the standings.

This year there are plenty of teams the Gophers are very similar to in talent, and they have the worst B1G record of that entire group. They have not been competitive. They've lost 5 of 6 and find themselves squarely in 12th place in the conference ahead of only Nebraska and Northwestern.
 


Because he is one of the lowest paid basketball coaches in the BTEN... and performance is commensurate with pay.... U is getting what their willing to pay for.
 

If Kerwin Walton pulls a Jimmy Chitwood, that would be a great reason.
 


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