Understanding Building a Team

[The SF Rock]

I hope this stimulates thought and reasoned conversation.

Once your pieces/players are in place you build it around your most productive player. In our situation that is Garcia. It will still be Garcia when the portal closes. You put Dawson in the best position at all times. Both offense and defense. You rest him and keep him from being double teamed. You do everything to keep him injury free. You would NEVER play him at the 5. Keep him where he is the very most effective. The 4. The 4 only. 30 minutes a game.

Next would be Payne basically the same and have him so active he draws the double team instead of Garcia. Feed him dunks and lay ins. 30 minutes a game.

The rest of the team is built around them. A 4 with a sweet shot at the 3. One that can rebound and bang.

Guards. 2 points that play as combos. Mitchell is one. Carrington is ready to be one, but please portal 2 more.

Lots of quality depth ready to step in as needed. Injuries will happen. Everyone gets 10 minutes PT or more. Fouls, injuries, and player exhaustion need to be planned for and reduced in likelihood.

Run the court. Lots of transition. Killer Bee defense. Play 9 or more players.

Result? 20 win season. .500 or better conference record. Advance in the dance.

 

[BleedGopher]

I like the overall premise of the post, but at the end of the day, our roster is only as good as those rosters we compete against. Our "best player" (Garcia) - how does he compare to other teams in the BT's best players, how do our freshman compare to the others in our conference? How do our 3 portal guards compare to the rosters they'll go up against?

If we want a 20 win season, we either need to have better talent, or better coaching than those teams who also want a 20 win season. We haven't seen us put together a more talented roster yet and we haven't seen a consistent ability to outcoach other BT coaches...one of those two need to change this upcoming season.

Go Gophers!!

 

[The SF Rock]

Yes. You have to maximize the available talent. Moving Garcia to the 5 to relieve Payne denigrates the overall quality of the team effort. You need to make the team better than the sum of the talent. That is indeed coaching.

It is a team sport not five 1 on 1 contests. Team beats roster every time. Easy to forget.

 

[GopherPlaya]

I hope this stimulates thought and reasoned conversation.

Once your pieces/players are in place you build it around your most productive player. In our situation that is Garcia. It will still be Garcia when the portal closes. You put Dawson in the best position at all times. Both offense and defense. You rest him and keep him from being double teamed. You do everything to keep him injury free. You would NEVER play him at the 5. Keep him where he is the very most effective. The 4. The 4 only. 30 minutes a game.

Next would be Payne basically the same and have him so active he draws the double team instead of Garcia. Feed him dunks and lay ins. 30 minutes a game.

The rest of the team is built around them. A 4 with a sweet shot at the 3. One that can rebound and bang.

Guards. 2 points that play as combos. Mitchell is one. Carrington is ready to be one, but please portal 2 more.

Lots of quality depth ready to step in as needed. Injuries will happen. Everyone gets 10 minutes PT or more. Fouls, injuries, and player exhaustion need to be planned for and reduced in likelihood.

Run the court. Lots of transition. Killer Bee defense. Play 9 or more players.

Result? 20 win season. .500 or better conference record. Advance in the dance.

We see it differently. He’s more effective as a small ball 5 than at the 4. He could flourish if we played him at the 5 with more space and shooters around him. I think playing on a team full of non-shooters takes away his effectiveness, which is beating slower bigs off the bounce.

 

[The SF Rock]

You would keep him beat down and even injured losing much or all his talent. Glad you brought it up. Most of our board holds the mistaken view. I do appreciate you for your coaching experience. It has value.

 

[GopherPlaya]

You would keep him beat down and even injured losing much or all his talent. Glad you brought it up. Most of our board holds the mistaken view. I do appreciate you for your coaching experience. It has value.

I don't see many teams playing through the post the way the Big Ten used to be. His injuries will happen no matter what position. I would be much more concerned about foul trouble than wear & tear. I wouldn't want him 30 minutes at the 5 but at least 10-12 would be beneficial imo

 

[The SF Rock]

The team would better even with Wilson at the 5 and keeping Garcia at the 4. Giving Garcia needed rest and 10 minutes at the 5 leaves him with 20 at the 4.

 

[Otis]

Garcia’s biggest problems for possibly playing the 5 are on the defensive end. He can’t guard a muscular post player, doesn’t matter if that player is a 4 or a 5.
If you play a team with Trevor Mbawkwe at the 4 and Hunter Dickinson at the 5, Garcia should guard Dickinson and let Payne deal with Mbawkwe.

Strength and athleticism vs strength and athleticism. Skill and shooting vs skill and shooting.

And all this planning for the bugs doesn’t mean shit if the guards are playing matador defense up top requiring the bigs to contest at the rim off their assignment.

Every game is different, give your players assignments they can succeed at.

Garcia guarding a down low strength guy is always a bad matchup.

 

[bga1]

I like the overall premise of the post, but at the end of the day, our roster is only as good as those rosters we compete against. Our "best player" (Garcia) - how does he compare to other teams in the BT's best players, how do our freshman compare to the others in our conference? How do our 3 portal guards compare to the rosters they'll go up against?

If we want a 20 win season, we either need to have better talent, or better coaching than those teams who also want a 20 win season. We haven't seen us put together a more talented roster yet and we haven't seen a consistent ability to outcoach other BT coaches...one of those two need to change this upcoming season.

Go Gophers!!

You are 100% correct. I will add one more component: A team that fits together and has chemistry.
No one can tell me that the AROB, Hagen, Grier team had more talent than the average Big Ten team- or even then they had the year before with Hump. But they had cohesiveness and they fit together well. Monson was the same coach- he just constructed a better fitting roster that was selfless.

I have seen Ben make a lot of rookie mistakes and be too rigid in his use of players but I think he is capable of coaching at this level if he can put together the right mix of guys. He needs a kid or two that are coaches on the floor- like Grier was that year. I think that Ben has been harpooned by his own poor roster construction. This needs to be the year he gets that piece right.

 

[GopherPlaya]

The team would better even with Wilson at the 5 and keeping Garcia at the 4. Giving Garcia needed rest and 10 minutes at the 5 leaves him with 20 at the 4.

This is the part I can't get behind. If we played a player like Wilson at the 5 with Garcia, it would clog space for him to be effective. That's why when he and Pharrell played together, he struggled to score, and the offense became stagnant. Garcia is better playing in more of a Jokic type 5 role where he is almost a point center

 

[Dakota2]

Yes. You have to maximize the available talent. Moving Garcia to the 5 to relieve Payne denigrates the overall quality of the team effort. You need to make the team better than the sum of the talent. That is indeed coaching.

It is a team sport not five 1 on 1 contests. Team beats roster every time. Easy to forget.

The issue with playing Garcia at 5 is simple: every coach in the conference will run at him trying to foul him out. They also know he's our best player.

 

[Dakota2]

We see it differently. He’s more effective as a small ball 5 than at the 4. He could flourish if we played him at the 5 with more space and shooters around him. I think playing on a team full of non-shooters takes away his effectiveness, which is beating slower bigs off the bounce.

He has to play defense too.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

on Garcia - I think he is most effective when he can play with some space around him. IMHO, putting him in the low-post negates his mobility and outside shooting. If Garcia is at the 5, and he rotates out on the perimeter, then someone else has to be able to rotate inside.

call me crazy, but depending on the matchup, I would be fine with letting Garcia slide out to the 3 position - maybe not on defense, but on offense - get him matched up against a smaller defender.

If Garcia is at the 4, he can still drive to the lane or run a pick-and-roll with the post for a high-low setup. I just think he is more versatile when he starts from the outside.

 

[The SF Rock]

The issue with playing Garcia at 5 is simple: every coach in the conference will run at him trying to foul him out. They also know he's our best player.

Also increases odds of nagging injuries. Even a severe injury. Play him where he is comfortable and most confident. Don’t ignore the mental aspect of the game.

Build the team “centered” on him, not dependent on him. Maybe quick ball handling guards

 

[Otis]

Let’s say we sign Pride and Whritesell.

PG: Mitchell
SG: Wrightsell
SF: Pride
PF: Garcia
C: Payne

This might not be our best lineup, but let’s just talk about it.

The three guard approach here would lead me to believe a 3-2 match up zone might be the most effective approach. It keeps Garcia and Payne near the basket and is designed to pressure the three. Pride sounds like a natural wing. Defense would allow him to slash in for rebounds when on the off-side.

Payne could overplay to keep Garcia from getting muscled down low. Or the could just rotate sides with the ball and keep Garcia on the backside.

Point is, this wasn’t an option last year! If you don’t have the guards, you can’t do crap!

We really have no idea what Ben and Thorsen can do with a decent line up.

 

[The SF Rock]

Let’s say we sign Pride and Whritesell.

PG: Mitchell
SG: Wrightsell
SF: Pride
PF: Garcia
C: Payne

This might not be our best lineup, but let’s just talk about it.

The three guard approach here would lead me to believe a 3-2 match up zone might be the most effective approach. It keeps Garcia and Payne near the basket and is designed to pressure the three. Pride sounds like a natural wing. Defense would allow him to slash in for rebounds when on the off-side.

Payne could overplay to keep Garcia from getting muscled down low. Or the could just rotate sides with the ball and keep Garcia on the backside.

Point is, this wasn’t an option last year! If you don’t have the guards, you can’t do crap!

We really have no idea what Ben and Thorsen can do with a decent line up.

Would give us plenty of talent for rotation. Would love 3 40% 3 point shooters on the floor. If we had them.

 

[GopherPlaya]

on Garcia - I think he is most effective when he can play with some space around him. IMHO, putting him in the low-post negates his mobility and outside shooting. If Garcia is at the 5, and he rotates out on the perimeter, then someone else has to be able to rotate inside.

call me crazy, but depending on the matchup, I would be fine with letting Garcia slide out to the 3 position - maybe not on defense, but on offense - get him matched up against a smaller defender.

If Garcia is at the 4, he can still drive to the lane or run a pick-and-roll with the post for a high-low setup. I just think he is more versatile when he starts from the outside.

Who said he has to play the post. Look at the best teams. They play an open offense not posting anyone. Playing Garcia at the 5 in a 5 out offense gives us an advantage playing him at the 3 doesn't because he would only have an only have an advantage posting up smaller players which goes back to your original point of him being in the low post negates his advantage. You play a player like Garcia with a 4 man who can shoot and rebound then he would be at his best.

 

[BleedGopher]

You are 100% correct. I will add one more component: A team that fits together and has chemistry.
No one can tell me that the AROB, Hagen, Grier team had more talent than the average Big Ten team- or even then they had the year before with Hump. But they had cohesiveness and they fit together well. Monson was the same coach- he just constructed a better fitting roster that was selfless.

I have seen Ben make a lot of rookie mistakes and be too rigid in his use of players but I think he is capable of coaching at this level if he can put together the right mix of guys. He needs a kid or two that are coaches on the floor- like Grier was that year. I think that Ben has been harpooned by his own poor roster construction. This needs to be the year he gets that piece right.

Great call on the chemistry aspect and that ARob/Hagen/Grier team...truly one of the most fun seasons in a long, long time.

Go Gophers!!

 

[GopherPlaya]

The issue with playing Garcia at 5 is simple: every coach in the conference will run at him trying to foul him out. They also know he's our best player.

They will do that to him at the 4 too. What makes it any different? He played plenty of minutes at the 4 last year and averaged almost 3 fouls a game. Dawson's problem is he's a tweener and there really isn't a position he can guard successfully. Same issue Jamison had. Dawson guards a 5 they are too strong, a 4 they will usually be too strong or too quick & no chance he can guard a 3. We just have to come to terms that Dawson isn't a good defender. That's why we should try more zone because we don't have great defenders in our front court. (backcourt either if you look at last year's roster) The one thing we did have was length. We could have been better defensively in zone than man

 

[The SF Rock]

Playa. You leave no role for Payne. You said he big time hurts Garcia’s game when he is on the floor. Payne is the next man up to optimize his talents for this year. I think you would really damage this teams potential. Who are you five starters?

 

[GopherPlaya]

Playa. You leave no role for Payne. You said he big time hurts Garcia’s game when he is on the floor. Payne is the next man up to optimize his talents for this year. I think you would really damage this teams potential. Who are you five starters?

I would start Payne & Garcia but try to rest 1 and play 1 for at least 10-20 min a game. I'm not saying they should ever play together but if we are playing them together for 25-30 minutes we better have 3 other shooters on the court because that was our biggest offensive issue last year. Our spacing was horrible

 

[The SF Rock]

I would start Payne & Garcia but try to rest 1 and play 1 for at least 10-20 min a game. I'm not saying they should ever play together but if we are playing them together for 25-30 minutes we better have 3 other shooters on the court because that was our biggest offensive issue last year. Our spacing was horrible

You aren’t optimizing the talent of either one to build a better team.

 

[bga1]

I would start Payne & Garcia but try to rest 1 and play 1 for at least 10-20 min a game. I'm not saying they should ever play together but if we are playing them together for 25-30 minutes we better have 3 other shooters on the court because that was our biggest offensive issue last year. Our spacing was horrible

Our spacing was horrible most of the year. Watch some of the later games in the year when Ben got Payne posted up earlier in the clock. Payne learned to move the ball from the low post and things got a whole lot better. We still lacked the shooters to finish the plays but the look of it was much improved. Payne and Garcia are a great fit together in my view. A long but non banger 4 who can shoot and drive to the hoop and a banger 5 who can hit the boards and finish in close. Nothing wrong with that pairing!!

 

[leib0039]

Garcia can't play the 5! Sure in 1985 against Ewing, Olajuwon, and David Robinson he would struggle. Most teams don't do that. We have PP so yes our best lineup has Dawson at the 4, but to say him and Wilson is better than say JOJ-Dawson is comical. You are worried about a guy like Kofi or Edey. Rightfully so, they are tough, but imagine those big lumbering oxes trying to guard Garcia on the perimeter!

He can't play over 30 min a night! I'm not advocating 40 a night but he's an elite athlete in his early 20s who plays likely 2 games a week. I'm sure he can manage 34 a game.

Chemistry/Fit is critical agreed. Look no further than Andrew Wiggins. Wolves needed him to be option 1 or 2 on offense. Didn't work. He goes to GS where he's def first shoots open 3s guy and now he's this incredible piece. Holes in a players game can be covered up in the right system or with the right team. They said, CBJ has shown 0 ability to find those players or system so call me skeptical he will this year.

 

[UpAndUnder43]

Yes. You have to maximize the available talent. Moving Garcia to the 5 to relieve Payne denigrates the overall quality of the team effort. You need to make the team better than the sum of the talent. That is indeed coaching.

It is a team sport not five 1 on 1 contests. Team beats roster every time. Easy to forget.

It’s easy to forget because it’s simply untrue.

 

[GopherPlaya]

Our spacing was horrible most of the year. Watch some of the later games in the year when Ben got Payne posted up earlier in the clock. Payne learned to move the ball from the low post and things got a whole lot better. We still lacked the shooters to finish the plays but the look of it was much improved. Payne and Garcia are a great fit together in my view. A long but non banger 4 who can shoot and drive to the hoop and a banger 5 who can hit the boards and finish in close. Nothing wrong with that pairing!!

Nothing wrong with that pairing in spurts like 10-15 minutes a game but if we go heavy minutes together 25-30 without more shooting we are in trouble imo

 

[GopherPlaya]

Garcia can't play the 5! Sure in 1985 against Ewing, Olajuwon, and David Robinson he would struggle. Most teams don't do that. We have PP so yes our best lineup has Dawson at the 4, but to say him and Wilson is better than say JOJ-Dawson is comical. You are worried about a guy like Kofi or Edey. Rightfully so, they are tough, but imagine those big lumbering oxes trying to guard Garcia on the perimeter!

He can't play over 30 min a night! I'm not advocating 40 a night but he's an elite athlete in his early 20s who plays likely 2 games a week. I'm sure he can manage 34 a game.

Chemistry/Fit is critical agreed. Look no further than Andrew Wiggins. Wolves needed him to be option 1 or 2 on offense. Didn't work. He goes to GS where he's def first shoots open 3s guy and now he's this incredible piece. Holes in a players game can be covered up in the right system or with the right team. They said, CBJ has shown 0 ability to find those players or system so call me skeptical he will this year.

This. I'm not saying go Garcia only at 5 but for 10 minutes a game with a JOJ or Betts type at 4, we would have an offensive advantage. This is why big ten teams struggle vs quicker teams in the tournament. I don't understand why this is complicated to understand

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Yes. You have to maximize the available talent. Moving Garcia to the 5 to relieve Payne denigrates the overall quality of the team effort. You need to make the team better than the sum of the talent. That is indeed coaching.

It is a team sport not five 1 on 1 contests. Team beats roster every time. Easy to forget.

Unless the other option is to play Jack Wilson those minutes.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Nothing wrong with that pairing in spurts like 10-15 minutes a game but if we go heavy minutes together 25-30 without more shooting we are in trouble imo

I actually like the pairing quite a bit because Garcia's range compliments Payne's game and Payne's toughness and athleticism help to make up for Garcia's shortcomings.

The offense was putrid last year, but I think it was largely because we were playing PFs at one wing and a completely overmatched FR at the other wing (and that's before we went to the bench).

I'm more worried about the synergy of other pairings like JOJ and Payne (not enough skill), Garcia and Fox (not enough bulk), Garcia and Betts (just not enough bulk/toughness). But honestly, our roster construction was so off last year, it was hard to really see how the pairings worked.

I think next year's team has a shot as significant improvement if Ben plays 3 guards as much as possible. This might mean some guys we like don't see the court as much. Let's assume we lock in Pride and Brown.

PG: Brown (25) - Mitchell (15)
G: Mitchell (15) - Carrington (15) - Christie (10)
G: Pride (30) - JOJ (5) - Betts (5)
PF: Garcia (25) - JOJ (10) - Ihnen (5)
C: Payne (27) - Garcia (8) - Fox (5)

Some of that can change a bit on how we break down minutes between JOJ/Ihnen/Fox/Betts - I'm not sure how those will all divy up. By my point is, that team is built much different than last year. It has actual wings and guys who can defend the perimeter (Pride and Brown both being DPOY for their conferences).

It's all about the guards.

 

[Off-GridTNgopher]

Let’s say we sign Pride and Whritesell.

PG: Mitchell
SG: Wrightsell
SF: Pride
PF: Garcia
C: Payne

This might not be our best lineup, but let’s just talk about it.

The three guard approach here would lead me to believe a 3-2 match up zone might be the most effective approach. It keeps Garcia and Payne near the basket and is designed to pressure the three. Pride sounds like a natural wing. Defense would allow him to slash in for rebounds when on the off-side.

Payne could overplay to keep Garcia from getting muscled down low. Or the could just rotate sides with the ball and keep Garcia on the backside.

Point is, this wasn’t an option last year! If you don’t have the guards, you can’t do crap!

We really have no idea what Ben and Thorsen can do with a decent line up.

Your last sentence is my only concern as they have had 2 portal years to do exactly that... Put a decent line up on the court. Hopefully we can get a couple of these kids that are visiting soon... They are NEEDED otherwise I just don't see your decent line up happening