Snoozing with Kentucky fans.....

Donate To GopherHole
tjgesquire said:
OOPS, I didn't realize that Nazr Mohammed, Randolph Morris and Kalenna Azubuike were on the same level as Jamal Mashburn, Antoine Walker and Ron Mercer.
Click to expand...

I noticed you happened to leave out Rajon Rondo :rolleyes:
 


Friend Of Tubby said:
Indeed they are (players who left UK after 2 or 3 years for NBA). Hmm, you left out Rondo. Hmm.

http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/statistics/careerpoints.html see where they fall on this list.
Click to expand...

I left Rondo off because he is good now, in college he didn't compare to Pitino's three.
Boston unlocked those handcuffs he was wearing in Kentucky.

Here's my question for you F.O.T., will you and Tubby be around after next season - the second consecutive season under 20 wins and another N.I.T. appearance?
 

tjgesquire said:
I left Rondo off because he is good now, in college he didn't compare to Pitino's three.
Boston unlocked those handcuffs he was wearing in Kentucky.

Here's my question for you F.O.T., will you and Tubby be around after next season - the second consecutive season under 20 wins and another N.I.T. appearance?
Click to expand...

Rajon Rondo
Points: 107
Assists: 19 (Jamal Mashburn 37, Ron Mercer and Antoine Walker not top 42)
Steals: 10 (Jamal Mashburn 14, Ron Mercer 30, Anotine Walker 35)

Rondo had such tight handcuffs on that he finished top 10 in steals and top 20 in assists in UK history, only playing two full seasons. And don't even say the handcuffs only kept him from scoring, because Rondo barely scores now. Boston hasn't taken the handcuffs off of his jump shot apparently yet.

What, I ask you, exactly did Boston "unlock" when they got Rondo?

Lastly, if Pitino is such a fantastic coach, how did Tubby's Gophers beat Pitino?
 

tjgesquire said:
I left Rondo off because he is good now, in college he didn't compare to Pitino's three. Boston unlocked those handcuffs he was wearing in Kentucky.

Here's my question for you F.O.T., will you and Tubby be around after next season - the second consecutive season under 20 wins and another N.I.T. appearance?
Click to expand...

BS to the first paragraph.

I've followed B10 basketball since 1969. The last sentence is even more BS than first paragraph.
 




tjgesquire said:
1. Go watch a Celtics game and get back to me.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2010/news/story?page=Rondo-Chapter3

2. Nice reasoning, I guess that makes Chris Mack, Eric Reveno, and Bill Carmody better than Tubby.
Click to expand...

1. Link http://www.hoopstvonline.com/news/rajonrondointerview.html clipped:

HTV: What was it like to play for Tubby Smith (Then the Kentucky head coach.)?

RONDO: He's a great coach who is defensive minded and studies the game. He's competitive and he wants to win.

2. Tubby has actually won 5 of 7 versus "Mr. 15 Seconds" (Pitino) since he returned from NBA failure to Div I coaching.
 

tjgesquire said:
1. Go watch a Celtics game and get back to me.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2010/news/story?page=Rondo-Chapter3

2. Nice reasoning, I guess that makes Chris Mack, Eric Reveno, and Bill Carmody better than Tubby.
Click to expand...

I watch Celtics games often. Last I checked they have 4 future HOF players on that team (Shaq, KG, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce). Just for you, lets compare some more numbers ...

NBA Vs. College

Rajon Rondo College Career
9.6 PPG
49.3% FG%
4.2 APG
4.5 RPG
2.3 SPG

Rajon Rondo NBA Career
10.7 PPG
49.2% FG%
7.5 APG
4.4 RPG
2.0 SPG

Now, I ask you again, what did Boston "Unlock"?

Was it giving him 3 HOF players to score off of his assists?
Was it making the game 8 minutes longer?
Did the removal of "handcuffs" help him to score 1.1 PPG more? shoot .1% worse? have 3.3 more assists? .1 less rebounds? or .3 less steals?

The only number even somewhat different is assits and I'd imagine Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, and Paul Pierce have a little something to do with that.

My point is Rondo puts up very similar numbers in the NBA as he did in college. He gets more assists, which I guess Boston "unlocked" in him by putting some pretty good talent around him. I don't want to sound like dboy here, but how many assists does Rondo get by simply passing to Ray Allen coming off of a screen? (I realize it is not simple as ball placement and timing is BIG) If it is Smush Parker catching that pass does Rondo put up the same assist numbers?
 




Rando sure learned to drive strong to the hole at the end of games from Tubby! (Cheap shot intended for Rondo not Tubby).

I think Tubby suffered from the "Bob Stoops" Syndrome at UK. His early success made anything less than a NC became unacceptable and his seasons that were good by UK standards became unacceptable in large part from the expectation level of the fans which were raised by his success.

I think it would be wise to hold off on talking about how great a player Rando is. While he is very good, he isn't asked to be any better than the third (or fourth) best player on his NBA team. We shouldn't project his success now back to UK, his time there can speak for itself.
 





Friend Of Tubby said:
http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/Statistics/careerpoints.html If the talent level dropped off, why are so many of Tubby recruits / players on the UK all-time scoring list (1000+ points) then?

About 20% of the 1000 Point scorers played for Tubby. Most of those (20%) were recruited by Tubby.

Why is that?
Click to expand...

They didn't have the 3 point shot during Rupp's Years
Didn't have it for Hall's years
I think it was during Suttons years the 3 point shot was added.
He didn't coach as long as Tubby did at UK and neither did Pitino.
I am not sure of the exact year but the 3 point shot was added to b-ball
somewhere at the end of Hall or beginning of Sutton.

At any point, I think Tubby was the only coach that coached a full 10 years with the 3 point shot.

Here is are some reasons that fans got tired of Tubby.

While he won the SEC a lot and had a high win percentage, people felt he would NEVER get another Title again. The thought was, would you want a coach who can win a lot but NEVER
get to the Final Four again or a coach that may have a down year but at least have a shot
at a banner.

The last 2 seasons of Tubby Smith were a disappointment by UK standards and there was
NO evidence that it was going to get any better. Most felt if he had stayed, UK was in
for much more of the same as he had done during his last 2 years and that was unacceptable.
While winning 20 games a year he was also losing 10 or more each year and could never seem
to win the big game. It was getting harder to beat top 20 teams and most of his wins were
just like this year at Minn. Start off with a big splash against lesser teams and then when the competition level went up, the losses stacked up also.

People got upset that Tubby seemed determined to play Saul at point guard and it appeared that he had no interest in recruiting a top one while Saul was on the team.

Some of the things that are happening at Minn now (transfers, legal problems,players seeming to give up, and Tubby NEVER putting ANY blame on himself for lack of success) are the same things that were happening at UK.
There is no question that Tubby is a good coach but there is also no question that UK was headed in the wrong direction with recruiting ( or lack thereof ), rankings, winning against top 20,
and overall image as elite.
Tubby left because it was time for him to go.
Minn. got what they wanted, Tubby got what he wanted, UK has gotten what it wants.
Better for everyone all around in my opinion.
 

Lets actual have a little more "statistical fun"

Lets compare Rondo's college numbers (2 seasons) as stats per minute played and his first two NBA seasons (pre Big Three)

Rajon Rondo College Career
.34 Points
.15 Assits
.16 Rebounds
.08 Steals

Rajon Rondo NBA Career (First 2 seasons)
.32 Points
.17 Assits
.15 rebounds
.06 Steals

Geez, looks like Rondo was essentially the same player when Tubby was no longer his coach??? :confused:

I will even give you Rondo's whole NBA career as per minute played numbers,

Rajon Rondo NBA Career
.34 Points
.24 Assits
.14 rebounds
.06 Steals

Oh my! He improved assists greatly when the Big 3 came, it is also arguable that he has simply improved every year in the leauge (which stats say he has) but did he improve over his two years in college? Stats say he improved their too.

Lastly, apparently Doc unlocked him so well he scores the same, yet rebounds and steals worse than he did in college? I would expect a guy to have lower numbers in the NBA compared to college, adjusting for the talent he now plays against. But considering the numbers are essentially the same, seems Tubby prepared him pretty well for the NBA.

So now, other than the wonderful eye test, in which statistical category have the Boston Celtics unlocked Rondo's greatness in, that Tubby was unable too?
 

scher215 said:
NBA Vs. College

Rajon Rondo College Career
9.6 PPG
49.3% FG%
4.2 APG
4.5 RPG
2.3 SPG

Rajon Rondo NBA Career
10.7 PPG
49.2% FG%
7.5 APG
4.4 RPG
2.0 SPG
Click to expand...

It's slightly more difficult to put up those stats vs. the NBA than the SEC.
 

nuggett said:
Tubby left because it was time for him to go.
Minn. got what they wanted, Tubby got what he wanted, UK has gotten what it wants.Better for everyone all around in my opinion.
Click to expand...

UK wanted BG over Tubby. True (what an odd want that was :confused:)
UK wanted Cal over everyone. True (will be interesting to see how many nat'l titles / final fours Cal makes it to in 10 years - if he is still around)
 



tjgesquire said:
It's slightly more difficult to put up those stats vs. the NBA than the SEC.
Click to expand...

I agree with you in the talent argument (I mentioned it) however, it also becomes somewhat easier as the talent around you is much better, even on a bad NBA team. Even the T'Wolves current roster would beat tOSU with ease. The talent diference is there, and I give it some account when comparing college / NBA numbers.

However, the similarities between his college and NBA numbers make me think he didn't all of a sudden have a light turned on as soon as Tubby stopped coaching him.
 

nuggett said:
Here is are some reasons that fans got tired of Tubby.

While he won the SEC a lot and had a high win percentage, people felt he would NEVER get another Title again. The thought was, would you want a coach who can win a lot but NEVER
get to the Final Four again or a coach that may have a down year but at least have a shot
at a banner.

The last 2 seasons of Tubby Smith were a disappointment by UK standards and there was
NO evidence that it was going to get any better. Most felt if he had stayed, UK was in
for much more of the same as he had done during his last 2 years and that was unacceptable.
While winning 20 games a year he was also losing 10 or more each year and could never seem
to win the big game. It was getting harder to beat top 20 teams and most of his wins were
just like this year at Minn. Start off with a big splash against lesser teams and then when the competition level went up, the losses stacked up also.

People got upset that Tubby seemed determined to play Saul at point guard and it appeared that he had no interest in recruiting a top one while Saul was on the team.

Some of the things that are happening at Minn now (transfers, legal problems,players seeming to give up, and Tubby NEVER putting ANY blame on himself for lack of success) are the same things that were happening at UK.
There is no question that Tubby is a good coach but there is also no question that UK was headed in the wrong direction with recruiting ( or lack thereof ), rankings, winning against top 20,
and overall image as elite.
Tubby left because it was time for him to go.
Minn. got what they wanted, Tubby got what he wanted, UK has gotten what it wants.
Better for everyone all around in my opinion.
Click to expand...

And yet, despite the 2003 team's failure to get to FF, there was Tubby in 2005 within 2OT of getting to FF again. Oh.

Tubby averaged 26-8. He won 20+ games EVERY year but lost 10+ in 5 (of 10) years. Oh.

Saul started at PG in 2000 and 01. Tubby recruited HS A-A PG Cliff Hawkins in 2000. Oh.

Adolph Rupp, Joe Hall, and Eddie Sutton had MORE transfers (per year) than Tubby. Oh.

You left out one reason. Dick Gabriel of WKYT mentioned it (linked here, earlier in thread). The "R' word. And you are quite possibly one of those.

Tubby put 14 players in NBA during his 10 years at UK. Players giving up?

He recruited the #1 class in 2004. The #1 JuCo in 2005. Top 15 class (including NBA player Jodie Meeks) in 2006. And all set to sign Patterson and Lucas before he left in 2007. Recruiting???

Your post is filled with lies or inaccuracies.
 


Friend Of Tubby said:
And yet, despite the 2003 team's failure to get to FF, there was Tubby in 2005 within 2OT of getting to FF again. Oh.

Tubby averaged 26-8. He won 20+ games EVERY year but lost 10+ in 5 (of 10) years. Oh.

Saul started at PG in 2000 and 01. Tubby recruited HS A-A PG Cliff Hawkins in 2000. Oh.

Adolph Rupp, Joe Hall, and Eddie Sutton had MORE transfers (per year) than Tubby. Oh.

You left out one reason. Dick Gabriel of WKYT mentioned it (linked here, earlier in thread). The "R' word. And you are quite possibly one of those.

Tubby put 14 players in NBA during his 10 years at UK. Players giving up?

He recruited the #1 class in 2004. The #1 JuCo in 2005. Top 15 class (including NBA player Jodie Meeks) in 2006. And all set to sign Patterson and Lucas before he left in 2007. Recruiting???

Your post is filled with lies or inaccuracies.
Click to expand...

FOT has anyone ever told you that perception and reality aren't always the same thing. Sometimes this isn't even related to the R word either (sometimes it is). As a Gopher related example many people currently feel that the type of player recruited is Don Lucia's biggest problem, yet his recruiting classes are always highly rated.
 

scher215 said:
UK wanted BG over Tubby. True (what an odd want that was :confused:)
UK wanted Cal over everyone. True (will be interesting to see how many nat'l titles / final fours Cal makes it to in 10 years - if he is still around)
Click to expand...

Tubby was 44-25 his last 2 years. Far Tubby.

Bring on Gillispie. He was 40-27 his 2 years. Far him.

Calipari is 56-11 in 2 years so far. He has 2 (vacated) FF in 19 years as a coach. Average 1 FF (0 NC) per 10 seasons.
 

Silvio said:
FOT has anyone ever told you that perception and reality aren't always the same thing. Sometimes this isn't even related to the R word either (sometimes it is). As a Gopher related example many people currently feel that the type of player recruited is Don Lucia's biggest problem, yet his recruiting classes are always highly rated.
Click to expand...

I grew up in KY - lived there 23 years. The R is more prevalent than you might think, especially in some areas.

Ask Dick Gabriel, who said:

And that’s where I part company with Tubby Bashers.

Disguised Racism

They embrace the notion that the 1998 NCAA Championship was somehow tainted, or worthless, because Rick Pitino recruited most of the players. Funny, nobody ripped Roy Williams for winning a title with kids recruited by Matt Doherty.

And those same malcontents will tell you that the program has been going downhill from the day Smith was hired.

That’s where the racism buzzer goes off in my head.

And don’t kid yourself, it was there. From the season ticket cancellations the day Smith was hired to the cowardly, anonymous phone calls to the talk shows – a faction of UK “fans” made themselves clear.
 

Friend Of Tubby said:
I grew up in KY - lived there 23 years. The R is more prevalent than you might think, especially in some areas.

Ask Dick Gabriel, who said:

And that’s where I part company with Tubby Bashers.

Disguised Racism

They embrace the notion that the 1998 NCAA Championship was somehow tainted, or worthless, because Rick Pitino recruited most of the players. Funny, nobody ripped Roy Williams for winning a title with kids recruited by Matt Doherty.

And those same malcontents will tell you that the program has been going downhill from the day Smith was hired.

That’s where the racism buzzer goes off in my head.

And don’t kid yourself, it was there. From the season ticket cancellations the day Smith was hired to the cowardly, anonymous phone calls to the talk shows – a faction of UK “fans” made themselves clear.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying that it wasn't a factor, it just feels like you are stating it was the only factor for people to be frustrated with his performance. I've only spent a weekend in the bluegrass state. I think it is far more dangerous to claim that every fan that wanted a change was a racist instead of accept that a percentage of the fanbase (and every fanbase) is racsit (%'s can very) and that some people wanted a change for reasons other than the color of Tubby's skin.
 

I think Tubby is going to turn out much like grinning Glen. Got hired away from schools where they had worn out their welcome, come in and have immediate success with the previous coaches players by getting much more effort out of them. Downfall is recruiting, which is primarily outworking your competitors. Burnt out by his time at UK?
 


Silvio said:
I'm not saying that it wasn't a factor, it just feels like you are stating it was the only factor for people to be frustrated with his performance. I've only spent a weekend in the bluegrass state. I think it is far more dangerous to claim that every fan that wanted a change was a racist instead of accept that a percentage of the fanbase (and every fanbase) is racsit (%'s can very) and that some people wanted a change for reasons other than the color of Tubby's skin.
Click to expand...

Not at all. SMALL % of K-ians overall, just VERY vocal.

But YES some UK fans wanted Tubby gone for the R reason.
 

beavergopher said:
I think Tubby is going to turn out much like grinning Glen. Got hired away from schools where they had worn out their welcome, come in and have immediate success with the previous coaches players by getting much more effort out of them. Downfall is recruiting, which is primarily outworking your competitors. Burnt out by his time at UK?
Click to expand...

His 1998-2002 record was 132-43 with mixture of players left over and his recruits.
His 2003-2007 record was 131-40 with 100% his own recruits. (At UK)

His 1996 record was 21-10 with mostly leftover players. 8 seniors on that team.
His 1997 record was 24-9 with mostly his own recruits. (At Georgia)

His 1992-93 record was 32-27 with mixture of players left over and his recruits.
His 1994-95 record was 47-16 with mostly his own recruits. (At Tulsa)

Until Minnesota, your theory fails to fit.
 

You must log in or register to reply here.



Top Bottom