Shama: James Johannesson, star of spring game, never played a minute this season

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Pompous Elitist said:
I guess that's why Wisconsin split time for Russell Wilson when he came in as a transfer. The other guy had time in the system. No rational coach plays the less talented player, or are we now arguing with ourselves? Look, 2 plus 2 equals 4 not 3.

Allen's system looked pretty QB friendly.
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Well, you're certainly arguing with yourself again with all of the strawman arguments you make. I never said the system wasn't QB friendly (frankly, that has NOTHING to do with anything I brought up). I also never said that you shouldn't downgrade your opinion of Seth Green in your head.

However, yes, coaches play the less talented players ALL OF THE TIME. Because, wait for it . . . sometimes the less talented players aren't the best players at that specific time. I know it's a crazy concept.

Seth Green is a bigger, faster, stronger armed, QB than Mitchell Janke. I don't even think Mitchell's parents would disagree with me on that point. However, I did not say that Green was the better QB that season. He was just clearly the better recruit.

Your Russell Wilson example is horrid again. I never said that a coach always plays the person with more experience. Congratulations, you found an example of a a person new to a program being much better than the incumbent. Stellar research!!!!!

My whole point. . . sometimes the better player isn't the better prospect.

Zach Lavine played behind guys like Robbie Hummel and Lorenzo Brown his rookie season. Who was more talented?
Teddy Bridgewater played behind Matt Cassell. Who was more talented?
(I'll beat this horse to death) David Cobb played behind James Gillum and Donnell Kirkwood. Who was more talented?

This list could be absolutely endless. So you're right. 2 + 2 = 4, and rationale coaches play less talented players in every single league, in every single sport, in every single season.
 

What is 4 + 4? Thanks in advance.


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I'll make this short and simple. Green was a Sr with 3 years as a starter under his belt. Jonke was a Jr and hadn't started. The prior Sr starter at Allen was a big-time recruit and went to TAMU or similar.

Jonke played the majority of the snaps down the stretch. It's all available on the computers.

You don't think a 4-star recruit, with 3 yrs experience under his built shouldn't be able to carry his team through the playoffs rather than a Jr guy who will be playing at Brown and received zero offers to non-Ivys? The experience angle might hold water in September, but not in October/November.

We have numerous people that say the better, more experienced player starts. Well, Green was more experienced, played and practiced all season and his coach leaned on Jonke when the chips were down. What does that tell you? He wasn't a good for their offense? No, Jonke is a dual threat as well.

I hope Green works out but I find that a red flag. Prove me wrong Seth.
 



Pompous Elitist said:
I'll make this short and simple. Green was a Sr with 3 years as a starter under his belt. Jonke was a Jr and hadn't started. The prior Sr starter at Allen was a big-time recruit and went to TAMU or similar.

Jonke played the majority of the snaps down the stretch. It's all available on the computers.

You don't think a 4-star recruit, with 3 yrs experience under his built shouldn't be able to carry his team through the playoffs rather than a Jr guy who will be playing at Brown and received zero offers to non-Ivys? The experience angle might hold water in September, but not in October/November.

We have numerous people that say the better, more experienced player starts. Well, Green was more experienced, played and practiced sparingly all season and faded when the chips were down. What does that tell you? He wasn't a good fir for their offense? No, Jonke is a dual threat as well.
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If I got this right, you are writing Green off because someone non-Ivys didn't offer outplayed him when he was 17? Seems logical. Stick to math - you got that down.


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Spoofin said:
If I got this right, you are writing Green off because someone non-Ivys didn't offer outplayed him when he was 17? Seems logical. Stick to math - you got that down.


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I'm simply pointing the fact that seemingly the majority of the posters here say the best player plays, except for x, y, and z....if it fits the narrative. If a player doesn't play it's because he was beat out.

Surely Green sat because he wasn't familiar with the players, or the coach favors the local kid, or he wasn't a fit for the system, or, or, or.

How many of our other recruits sat on the bench the majority of their senior seasons?
 

dpodoll68 said:
I would be absolutely shocked if either Smith or Brooks left early. They're good college backs, but way too small to be NFL studs, and would be essentially throwing away college eligibility by leaving early. They'd be drafted 6th or 7th round, if at all. I could see either or both moving up into maybe 4th round territory if they stayed through their senior year. David Cobb was a far more productive college back than both, outweighs both by 20-25 lbs., and still was only drafted in the 5th round.
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http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/david-cobb-1.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/rodney-smith-5.html
 




Pompous Elitist said:
I'm simply pointing the fact that seemingly the majority of the posters here say the best player plays, except for x, y, and z....if it fits the narrative. If a player doesn't play it's because he was beat out.

Surely Green sat because he wasn't familiar with the players, or the coach favors the local kid, or he wasn't a fit for the system, or, or, or.

How many of our other recruits sat on the bench the majority of their senior seasons?
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Not sure where you are going with this. Green had multiple P5 offers to play QB. When is the last time we had a QB that you could say that about? He was an excellent recruit for us.
 

John Galt said:
Not sure where you are going with this. Green had multiple P5 offers to play QB. When is the last time we had a QB that you could say that about? He was an excellent recruit for us.
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As a soph/junior. I'm just playing the devils advocate here. We have many who strongly assert that the best płayer always plays (Djam>Johanneson). They are then faced with cognitive dissonance when their QB recruit was relegated to a change of pace role in high school. He's great, but he was a backup despite being older, bigger, and more experienced...huh.

I'm not saying Green will be terrible. We just had Mitch as our QB and we survived that as a team. I think there are many big, strong-armed QBs that can be serviceable in our system. Is he the messiah? I'm a lot less sure about that. I hope he's great.
 

Love the interesting argument going on about Green amongst some pretty knowledgeable posters....

Understand that his stock is reduced in the eyes of some since he may've been outplayed a bit at the end of his Sr. season in TX.

Anyone have the insight as to what part of his game relegated him to a close #2 down there?

I've heard that there may be issues with his arm motion/passing delivery. If it is that, certainly it can be worked on. If anyone knows his game in better detail, I am curious.
 

John Galt said:
Yeah, dpo is way off on this one. Smith has over 1700 yards rushing and 17 TDs after 2 seasons of action. Cobb had 65 yards. If Smith has 2 more seasons similar to this one, he might catch Thompson as the all-time leading rusher.
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Smith would have to average well over 1300 yards rushing the next two seasons to even catch Thompson. Not happening with Brooks with him. Maybe by himself.
 



Vandy said:
Love the interesting argument going on about Green amongst some pretty knowledgeable posters....

Understand that his stock is reduced in the eyes of some since he may've been outplayed a bit at the end of his Sr. season in TX.

Anyone have the insight as to what part of his game relegated him to a close #2 down there?

I've heard that there may be issues with his arm motion/passing delivery. If it is that, certainly it can be worked on. If anyone knows his game in better detail, I am curious.
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Talking to several H.S. coaches over the last few years has me perplexed with Green. They all say he was/is physically read to perform at the college level, but that he was very, very average as a QB in H.S.. I really feel we need him to be the guy sooner than later.
 

Either JJ or FC will be leaving. Worst case, both transfer.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
I'll make this short and simple. Green was a Sr with 3 years as a starter under his belt. Jonke was a Jr and hadn't started. The prior Sr starter at Allen was a big-time recruit and went to TAMU or similar.

Jonke played the majority of the snaps down the stretch. It's all available on the computers.

You don't think a 4-star recruit, with 3 yrs experience under his built shouldn't be able to carry his team through the playoffs rather than a Jr guy who will be playing at Brown and received zero offers to non-Ivys? The experience angle might hold water in September, but not in October/November.

We have numerous people that say the better, more experienced player starts. Well, Green was more experienced, played and practiced all season and his coach leaned on Jonke when the chips were down. What does that tell you? He wasn't a good for their offense? No, Jonke is a dual threat as well.

I hope Green works out but I find that a red flag. Prove me wrong Seth.
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I never said it wasn't a red flag for Green, how many times do I have to say that?

I simply said that it's incredibly common for a coach to play a less "talented" player. Extremely common. You said "No rational coach" plays a less talented player. That was an idiotic comment. Atrocious.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
I'm simply pointing the fact that seemingly the majority of the posters here say the best player plays, except for x, y, and z....if it fits the narrative. If a player doesn't play it's because he was beat out.

Surely Green sat because he wasn't familiar with the players, or the coach favors the local kid, or he wasn't a fit for the system, or, or, or.

How many of our other recruits sat on the bench the majority of their senior seasons?
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Or as I said, many times, Janke might have been a BETTER player at the time. I'm not saying he wasn't.

I am saying, that Green is the better prospect.

Janke was a really good HS QB who very well could have been a better player during the 2015 season for Allen HS. However, that doesn't mean he was more talented than Green. He is not.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
I never said it wasn't a red flag for Green, how many times do I have to say that?

I simply said that it's incredibly common for a coach to play a less "talented" player. Extremely common. You said "No rational coach" plays a less talented player. That was an idiotic comment. Atrocious.
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Well "Bob", here is what I said in my original post on this thread: "There are plenty of reasons guys don't see the field rather than a talent deficit."

Your rant should be directed at the majority of Gopherholers that feel the better player always sees the field.

In Seth's case...he wasn't benched. He simply was passed over by a less athletically and physically gifted player. I was forced to defend my statement on why we ought to recruit Jonke if the better player always plays (a very common sentiment/narrative) and I did so. Personally I'm hopeful he can develop but the red flags are there.
 

tikited said:
Smith would have to average well over 1300 yards rushing the next two seasons to even catch Thompson. Not happening with Brooks with him. Maybe by himself.
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Good catch, I was thinking DT had 3900 yards instead of 4500.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Or as I said, many times, Janke might have been a BETTER player at the time. I'm not saying he wasn't.

I am saying, that Green is the better prospect.

Janke was a really good HS QB who very well could have been a better player during the 2015 season for Allen HS. However, that doesn't mean he was more talented than Green. He is not.
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Bob, there's much more to playing QB than being tall and having a good arm. If he were better at making good decisions, reading defenses, and protecting the ball he'd have been the starter. Stop lying to yourself.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
I'm simply pointing the fact that seemingly the majority of the posters here say the best player plays, except for x, y, and z....if it fits the narrative. If a player doesn't play it's because he was beat out.

Surely Green sat because he wasn't familiar with the players, or the coach favors the local kid, or he wasn't a fit for the system, or, or, or.

How many of our other recruits sat on the bench the majority of their senior seasons?
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Seth Green split time all the way through. It's fine to articulate your opinion without lying and making absurd comments throughout. Pump the breaks on the hyperbole, it really takes away from whatever point you're trying to make.
 


Bob_Loblaw said:
Seth Green split time all the way through. It's fine to articulate your opinion without lying and making absurd comments throughout. Pump the breaks on the hyperbole, it really takes away from whatever point you're trying to make.
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Take a look at the game summaries, drive charts and get back to me Bob. I've done my research. Green was not the starter down the stretch. He played, but it was 75/25.

What point are you trying to make? You insinuate Johannesson does not have the requisite talent, yet you're defending Green. It really makes no sense.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Bob, there's much more to playing QB than being tall and having a good arm. If he were better at making good decisions, reading defenses, and protecting the ball he'd have been the starter. Stop lying to yourself.
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Wow. You aren't really this dense. I know you aren't.

I never said that Janke wasn't the better player at that time, probably for the exact reasons that you mentioned. You literally quoted a post of mine where I was saying that yes, Janke could very well have been the better player or similar level of player because they SPLIT time.

I said that Green was and still is the more talented player. He is a better prospect.

For example, Lavine was considerably more talented player than guys like Robbie Hummel. However, Hummel was probably better than Lavine during Lavine's rookie season (Lavine was historically bad). However, Lavine was a considerably better prospect, because of his physical tools.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Wow. You aren't really this dense. I know you aren't.

I never said that Janke wasn't the better player at that time, probably for the exact reasons that you mentioned. You literally quoted a post of mine where I was saying that yes, Janke could very well have been the better player or similar level of player because they SPLIT time.

I said that Green was and still is the more talented player. He is a better prospect.

For example, Lavine was considerably more talented player than guys like Robbie Hummel. However, Hummel was probably better than Lavine during Lavine's rookie season (Lavine was historically bad). However, Lavine was a considerably better prospect, because of his physical tools.
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I don't follow basketball. That's probably why I know more about Green.

Your logic makes no sense because of what I've already laid out: Green was more experienced in terms of starts/gameplay, Sr vs Jr, physically mature vs 6-0 (listed) 180 Jonke. Green did not play the majority of snaps, particularly in the playoff run which is telling. So where does that leave us? Was he a discipline case? No, he was playing. Was he inexperienced? No. Was he better at doing things that QBs need to do? Seems like apparently not definitively.

Mind you this is in high school where the pool of talent is FAR more dispersed than in college and particularly in the pros. Tom Brady didn't play much and emerged as a better pro but his college teammates were also pro-level talent. The gap between a 4 star recruit and Jonke ought to have been vast. He should have been a slam dunk starter.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Take a look at the game summaries, drive charts and get back to me Bob. I've done my research. Green was not the starter down the stretch. He played, but it was 75/25.

What point are you trying to make? You insinuate Johannesson does not have the requisite talent, yet you're defending Green. It really makes no sense.
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I've never insinuated anything about Johannesson's talent. I said he is not as good as Smith, McCrary or Brooks right now. I thought his highlights were impressive and I thought he looked great at the Spring Game, so no, I never insinuated that Johannesson doesn't have the talent to help the Gophers, he is just rightfully buried on the depth chart at our deepest position.

Ok. . . read slowly

I said "If the coaches thought JJ would give the Gophers their best chance to win, they would have been playing him". You quoted and bolded this comment and replied with "So you think the Gophers should have recruited Janke?"

Now my point is really, really easy.

A player might not be as good as a player one season (for a variety of reasons) and that lesser player might STILL be the better recruit/prospect.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
I don't follow basketball. That's probably why I know more about Green.

Your logic makes no sense because of what I've already laid out: Green was more experienced in terms of starts/gameplay, Sr vs Jr, physically mature vs 6-0 (listed) 180 Jonke. Green did not play the majority of snaps, particularly in the playoff run which is telling. So where does that leave us? Was he a discipline case? No, he was playing. Was he inexperienced? No. Was he better at doing things that QBs need to do? Seems like apparently not definitively.

Mind you this is in high school where the pool of talent is FAR more dispersed than in college and particularly in the pros. Tom Brady didn't play much and emerged as a better pro but his college teammates were also pro-level talent. The gap between a 4 star recruit and Jonke ought to have been vast. He should have been a slam dunk starter.
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Yeah, you just don't follow sports. Brady started every single game of his Junior and Senior seasons. He was all over the Michigan record books.

The gap between Brady (arguably the greatest QB of all time) and Henson is considerably wider than the gap between a good Big 10 QB (hopefully that is what Green will be) and a good Ivy League QB (hopefully that is what Janke will be).
 

Breaking down box scores on TX football from Mn.

From box scores realize they won games by an average of over 30 points last year. Maybe that's why the Junior played more. They are 12-0 this year and winning games by 28.

Looks like a great way to evaluate who is better.

Who played and better in the title game they lost?




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Pompous Elitist said:
I don't follow basketball. That's probably why I know more about Green.

Your logic makes no sense because of what I've already laid out: Green was more experienced in terms of starts/gameplay, Sr vs Jr, physically mature vs 6-0 (listed) 180 Jonke. Green did not play the majority of snaps, particularly in the playoff run which is telling. So where does that leave us? Was he a discipline case? No, he was playing. Was he inexperienced? No. Was he better at doing things that QBs need to do? Seems like apparently not definitively.

Mind you this is in high school where the pool of talent is FAR more dispersed than in college and particularly in the pros. Tom Brady didn't play much and emerged as a better pro but his college teammates were also pro-level talent. The gap between a 4 star recruit and Jonke ought to have been vast. He should have been a slam dunk starter.
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It's really easy. . .

Sometimes Player A is a better player than Player B, but Player B is still the better prospect/recruit. This happens all of the time, in every sport. It's really not that complicated.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
Breaking down box scores on TX football from Mn.

From box scores realize they won games by an average of over 30 points last year. Maybe that's why the Junior played more. They are 12-0 this year and winning games by 28.

Looks like a great way to evaluate who is better.

Who played and better in the title game they lost?




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Green did.

Jonke was getting more run than Green early in the year and putting up good numbers too. It was a legitimate QB platoon.
 

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