Shama: Glen Taylor: Equity Group Not in Place for Wolves Sale

[tikited]

Fine.... I will step in and save the day. All I need to do is to get all of my ducks in a row, like money, the NBA agreeing to let me in, and all of the legal mumbo jumbo organized. Just give me about three years, then a few more after that since my main focus will still be on all of my other business interests. Cool?

 

[swede2]

History also repeats itself because the Wolves will become what they were for most of the 90s: relocation bait.

I don't think that will be the case so long as Glen Taylor owns the franchise but does the family keep the club after Glen passes away? My assumption is that the original decision to sell was made after consulting with his family and their feedback being that they weren't terribly interested in being NBA team owners. Perhaps that has changed.

Part of the original legislation that made the City purchase Target Center from Harv and Marv was that the team sign a 30 year lease. That original lease would have expired next year. As part of the Vikings stadium legislation, Target Center received $145 million in public and private dollars for renovations, which provided very little new revenue streams, in the scheme of things (compare and contract the $550 million renovations planned for Capital One Arena in DC, which while only 8 years newer than Target Center, was next generation compared to Target Center, with modern premium seating options like club levels and less upper level). With the renovations to Target Center, the team's lease was extended to 34-35, but has only a $50 million buyout.

Presumably, the TC renovations were as good as Glen Taylor thought he could get at the time, or its just another piece of his mismanagement of the team. If it was as good as he could get, then I don't blame him for agreeing to such a nonfactor buyout of the lease.

If Glen Taylor really wants to keep the team in Minnesota, then he needs to start the discussions now with city and state leaders and begin working on a plan for Target Center replacement. Glen has never been a developer that I'm aware of - he needs to partner with a developer that would develop the Farmer's Market site into an arena and mixed use development (hello Wilfs? Or what about the MOA people? I've always thought that a modern arena would be a great fit at MOA).

But as long as he owns the team, and intends to own the team, I don't think there will be any relocation talk.

 

[swede2]

Wonder if Hunt family has the money and interest to try to bring the Twolves to KC.

T-Mobile Center - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There is a bit of a mid-country NHL/NBA gap. KC, St Louis, even Omaha (if OKC can do it, why not Omaha?). Glen has now said that the team is no longer for sale, although that might simply mean that interested parties really need to present a very large offer, not this trifling $1.5 billion stuff.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

The New York Post had a lengthy article on the T-Wolves sale situation. According to the 2 writers on the story, Lore has not been as involved with the sale process and was leaving things to A-Rod to handle. Lore has been more focused on a different project - a food-delivery company. A few excerpts:

Lore was willing to invest a relatively little amount of money, but wanted A-Rod, who had put in a lot less than Lore, to catch up in this new round of financing to a level much closer to what he had invested, sources with direct knowledge of the situation said.

the initial plan was Lore and A-Rod would invest roughly equally in the team.

That meant A-Rod needed to raise most of the money for this next investment round and he tried to for months.

Not many parties wanted to play second fiddle to the Lore and A-Rod ownership group.

“Alex has gone through everyone,” a source who spoke recently to A-Rod and considered investing in the team said.

Right now Lore is laser-focused on keeping his gourmet food delivery-company Wonder.

He has in recent months invested several hundred million in the money-losing start-up and just completed a $700 million round of financing, sources said.

Lore owns more than half of the company, and it represents much of his net worth.

He still attended many Timberwolves games but left the fund-raising largely to A-Rod.

 

[MplsGopher]

There is a bit of a mid-country NHL/NBA gap. KC, St Louis, even Omaha (if OKC can do it, why not Omaha?). Glen has now said that the team is no longer for sale, although that might simply mean that interested parties really need to present a very large offer, not this trifling $1.5 billion stuff.

Omaha also has a nice arena but not quite to NBA size standards. I think it's more like 12k?

EDIT: nope I'm wrong, it's 18k https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHI_Health_Center_Omaha

It didn't feel like it was that big last time I was there a couple years ago.

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

The New York Post had a lengthy article on the T-Wolves sale situation. According to the 2 writers on the story, Lore has not been as involved with the sale process and was leaving things to A-Rod to handle. Lore has been more focused on a different project - a food-delivery company. A few excerpts:

Lore was willing to invest a relatively little amount of money, but wanted A-Rod, who had put in a lot less than Lore, to catch up in this new round of financing to a level much closer to what he had invested, sources with direct knowledge of the situation said.

the initial plan was Lore and A-Rod would invest roughly equally in the team.

That meant A-Rod needed to raise most of the money for this next investment round and he tried to for months.

Not many parties wanted to play second fiddle to the Lore and A-Rod ownership group.

“Alex has gone through everyone,” a source who spoke recently to A-Rod and considered investing in the team said.

Right now Lore is laser-focused on keeping his gourmet food delivery-company Wonder.

He has in recent months invested several hundred million in the money-losing start-up and just completed a $700 million round of financing, sources said.

Lore owns more than half of the company, and it represents much of his net worth.

He still attended many Timberwolves games but left the fund-raising largely to A-Rod.

Thanks. An interesting perspective.

As part of ARod’s reclamation project, I read a fluff piece online a few years ago, talking about his business acumen & contacts. The writer was impressed because he (his advisers?) decided to buy 2K apartment units and set up a property management company to be the administrator. They also delved into his friendship with Buffet and how he loved to talk business with Alex; I remember thinking maybe he’s just a fan who likes to hang out with ex-jocks.

Sounds like Alex may have discovered hanging out with business guys is one thing, but getting them to give you money is another thing entirely.

 

[MplsGopher]

(hello Wilfs? Or what about the MOA people? I've always thought that a modern arena would be a great fit at MOA).

This would be a fantastic idea.

Get it the hell out of downtown. No one wants to go to downtown and fight with parking and walking on crime streets in the cold and dark of winter.

It's a completely different story for Twins in the Summer and Vikings in the fall.

 

[jamiche]

I don't think that will be the case so long as Glen Taylor owns the franchise but does the family keep the club after Glen passes away? My assumption is that the original decision to sell was made after consulting with his family and their feedback being that they weren't terribly interested in being NBA team owners. Perhaps that has changed.

Part of the original legislation that made the City purchase Target Center from Harv and Marv was that the team sign a 30 year lease. That original lease would have expired next year. As part of the Vikings stadium legislation, Target Center received $145 million in public and private dollars for renovations, which provided very little new revenue streams, in the scheme of things (compare and contract the $550 million renovations planned for Capital One Arena in DC, which while only 8 years newer than Target Center, was next generation compared to Target Center, with modern premium seating options like club levels and less upper level). With the renovations to Target Center, the team's lease was extended to 34-35, but has only a $50 million buyout.

Presumably, the TC renovations were as good as Glen Taylor thought he could get at the time, or its just another piece of his mismanagement of the team. If it was as good as he could get, then I don't blame him for agreeing to such a nonfactor buyout of the lease.

If Glen Taylor really wants to keep the team in Minnesota, then he needs to start the discussions now with city and state leaders and begin working on a plan for Target Center replacement. Glen has never been a developer that I'm aware of - he needs to partner with a developer that would develop the Farmer's Market site into an arena and mixed use development (hello Wilfs? Or what about the MOA people? I've always thought that a modern arena would be a great fit at MOA).

But as long as he owns the team, and intends to own the team, I don't think there will be any relocation talk.

Taylor got the crumbs of the Vikings stadium bill. The bill also funded CHS field for the St.Paul folks. It was as good as he could do.

 

[jamiche]

Glen saved the franchise only to have the franchise win 2 playoff series over the last 30 years, both coming in the same season 20 years ago.

It's not a coincidence the the Wolves are now the best they've been, maybe ever in history, after he started selling and the new owners brought in real leadership.

So what has he really accomplished? Nothing other than making the Wolves one of the most embarrassing franchises in all of sports.

If Glen really wants to 'save the franchise' he'll sell the team. If he wants to keep them, then build your own fucking arena Glen.

I don't think Lore drafted Ant, McDaniels or Reid. He brought in Connelly who made one very dubious and cap busting trade (yes, Rudy is having a very good year) and one excellent deal.

Two series wins is infinitely better than zero series wins. Exactly what we would have had if the wolves had moved to NOLA or anyplace else in 1995.

 

[Iceland12]

Inside story of how A-Rod’s Timberwolves bid fell apart

Marc Lore, who several years ago said that owning the Timberwolves was a dream come true, largely walked away from his option to buy control of the team leaving it to Alex Rodriguez.

nypost.com

Most telling part of that story?

"A Lore spokesman declined comment.

An A-Rod spokesman did not return calls."

 

[MplsGopher]

Two series wins is infinitely better than zero series wins.

What about the other 26 years? Is 26 years of disappointment better than zero years of disappointment?

I guess we would've never got to year 27!

 

[swede2]

Omaha also has a nice arena but not quite to NBA size standards. I think it's more like 12k?

EDIT: nope I'm wrong, it's 18k https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHI_Health_Center_Omaha

It didn't feel like it was that big last time I was there a couple years

Omaha built a ballpark that sits empty and all used all summer for the CWS. I would think that if they could get a big league team, that the city would make the necessary upgrades to CHI or build a new arena.

Not that it tells the whole story but OKC is actually a top 50 television market, at least by DMA (New Orleans is actually a smaller market than OKC by DMA). Omaha is 75 or 76.

MSP is 15. St Louis is 24. KC is a top 50 market but further down the line. Other than Seattle, which almost certainly will be an expansion team, there isn't a larger market without an NBA team. But does being #30 make that much difference when compared to #15? Is the local television contract more lucrative in a less crowded market? Is there any value anymore in any other than the largest markets for a local tv contract?

 

[swede2]

Taylor got the crumbs of the Vikings stadium bill. The bill also funded CHS field for the St.Paul folks. It was as good as he could do.

Other than Xcel, is there state money in any of our big league arenas/stadiums? Xcel seemed to get built, with a big state general fund contribution, with very little controversy. Targer Field is a Hennepin County deal. US Bank is largely pull tabs and I believe city venture. Target Center was built by Harv and Marv, but sold to the City, although I don't believe the city was necessarily wild about it - there was a legislative piece to it. And Target Center was remodeled with city and maybe pull tab dollars I believe.

Even with a legislature that spends money like drunken sailors, I can't foresee any kind of state contribution to a new arena for the Wolves. City of Minneapolis? Hard to imagine anyone in that inside out asylum championing an arena bill. I can't see Glen putting up a billion himself for a new arena. How does this get done?

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

I don't think Lore drafted Ant, McDaniels or Reid. He brought in Connelly who made one very dubious and cap busting trade (yes, Rudy is having a very good year) and one excellent deal.

Two series wins is infinitely better than zero series wins. Exactly what we would have had if the wolves had moved to NOLA or anyplace else in 1995.

And Connelly found a way to keep all 3 players around long term, plus bring the roster to a championship level.

The Gobert trade wasn't a cap busting trade which has been explained repeatedly to you. It was a bold, necessary move to take this team to the next level, and it is working out. But you still think Walker Kessler is just as good as Gobert, so I know you completely lack any knowledge on this subject.

And there's that Minnesota mentality we all know and love. Hey, we don't have a chance to compete under this ownership every year, but at least we have a team. I would rather have fewer teams that can compete at a championship level, than more teams that haven't come close in decades.

I'll enjoy this team as currently assembled because they have a chance to win a championship this season, and for the next several thanks to Connelly. But if he/Lore/Arod all get out and it's back fully in Taylor's hands, we'll be back in the lottery in no time.

But hey, at least we have a team to waste time and money on, while the incompetent Taylor laughs his way to the bank. I actually value winning.

 

[forever a gopher]

Other than Xcel, is there state money in any of our big league arenas/stadiums? Xcel seemed to get built, with a big state general fund contribution, with very little controversy. Targer Field is a Hennepin County deal. US Bank is largely pull tabs and I believe city venture. Target Center was built by Harv and Marv, but sold to the City, although I don't believe the city was necessarily wild about it - there was a legislative piece to it. And Target Center was remodeled with city and maybe pull tab dollars I believe.

Even with a legislature that spends money like drunken sailors, I can't foresee any kind of state contribution to a new arena for the Wolves. City of Minneapolis? Hard to imagine anyone in that inside out asylum championing an arena bill. I can't see Glen putting up a billion himself for a new arena. How does this get done?

USBank Stadium was partially funded by the state ($348MM) and the city ($150MM). The state is covering their end through e-pulltabs. The city is covering their end through a hospitality tax. So yes, there is plenty of state dollars tied up in the stadium.

 

[jamiche]

And Connelly found a way to keep all 3 players around long term, plus bring the roster to a championship level.

The Gobert trade wasn't a cap busting trade which has been explained repeatedly to you. It was a bold, necessary move to take this team to the next level, and it is working out. But you still think Walker Kessler is just as good as Gobert, so I know you completely lack any knowledge on this subject.

And there's that Minnesota mentality we all know and love. Hey, we don't have a chance to compete under this ownership every year, but at least we have a team. I would rather have fewer teams that can compete at a championship level, than more teams that haven't come close in decades.

I'll enjoy this team as currently assembled because they have a chance to win a championship this season, and for the next several thanks to Connelly. But if he/Lore/Arod all get out and it's back fully in Taylor's hands, we'll be back in the lottery in no time.

But hey, at least we have a team to waste time and money on, while the incompetent Taylor laughs his way to the bank. I actually value winning.

Championship level means the team has won a championship. Everybody knows that hasn't happened.

Never said Kessler was as good as Gobert. I said he was a pretty good substitute at 5% of the cost. Yes it was a cap busting trade. The wolves will be over the second apron after this season. Ownership will have to decide to pay a heavy penalty or break up the team for financial reasons.

Fewer teams rather than more teams? Do you think there's some kind of universal salary cap for professional sports? If so, I know a wannabe owner who will sell you seventy five cents of equity for every dollar of investment...and he'll keep the difference.

Nobody is forcing you to waste time or money on the wolves.

 

[jamiche]

Other than Xcel, is there state money in any of our big league arenas/stadiums? Xcel seemed to get built, with a big state general fund contribution, with very little controversy. Targer Field is a Hennepin County deal. US Bank is largely pull tabs and I believe city venture. Target Center was built by Harv and Marv, but sold to the City, although I don't believe the city was necessarily wild about it - there was a legislative piece to it. And Target Center was remodeled with city and maybe pull tab dollars I believe.

Even with a legislature that spends money like drunken sailors, I can't foresee any kind of state contribution to a new arena for the Wolves. City of Minneapolis? Hard to imagine anyone in that inside out asylum championing an arena bill. I can't see Glen putting up a billion himself for a new arena. How does this get done?

The only possible way to get it done is with a known, local, private party (after a very successful season) who agrees to put at least some money in the deal. The Pohlads did, the Wilfs did not. I don't remember about Xcel.

 

[jamiche]

Thanks. An interesting perspective.

As part of ARod’s reclamation project, I read a fluff piece online a few years ago, talking about his business acumen & contacts. The writer was impressed because he (his advisers?) decided to buy 2K apartment units and set up a property management company to be the administrator. They also delved into his friendship with Buffet and how he loved to talk business with Alex; I remember thinking maybe he’s just a fan who likes to hang out with ex-jocks.

Sounds like Alex may have discovered hanging out with business guys is one thing, but getting them to give you money is another thing entirely.

If the NY Post article is accurate, Alex should have been able to raise the money...except he has no track record and he got greedy. I would think most investors won't take a second meeting if you are selling 75% equity on a 100% investment and pocketing the difference. Lore shouldn't have let him go off on his own.

 

[jamiche]

What about the other 26 years? Is 26 years of disappointment better than zero years of disappointment?

I guess we would've never got to year 27!

I'll take 26 years of disappointment over zero years of NBA basketball. Would you take 64 years of Vikings disappointment over zero years of NFL football?

 

[Ope3]

Get it the hell out of downtown. No one wants to go to downtown and fight with parking and walking on crime streets in the cold and dark of winter.

I went to the Big 10 Tournament on 4 different days parking in 3 different ramps, 2 of them to the east of Target Center. My shoes never touched a sidewalk.

 

[howeda7]

And where are they going to go if LV and Seattle are off the table due to expansion?

There is nowhere for them to go. This is just another made up boogeyman.

There a lot more places an NBA team can go than NFL/MLB. Kansas City, Pittsburgh, St. Louis etc. It wouldn't exactly be wise to leave MSP for those markets but that doesn't mean they won't threaten it or do it.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Championship level means the team has won a championship. Everybody knows that hasn't happened.

Never said Kessler was as good as Gobert. I said he was a pretty good substitute at 5% of the cost. Yes it was a cap busting trade. The wolves will be over the second apron after this season. Ownership will have to decide to pay a heavy penalty or break up the team for financial reasons.

Fewer teams rather than more teams? Do you think there's some kind of universal salary cap for professional sports? If so, I know a wannabe owner who will sell you seventy five cents of equity for every dollar of investment...and he'll keep the difference.

Nobody is forcing you to waste time or money on the wolves.

Kessler is not a good substitute at 5% cost. Without Gobert, this team is nowhere near the top of the west this season.

The Wolves have cap issues because of KAT's contract, not Gobert. It has been discussed since last offseason that KAT will likely be moved at some point, potentially after this season. Naz is his younger replacement at a lower cost, and they have already proved they can compete at a high level without KAT. They don't have to break up the team, and again, this has been explained repeatedly to you.

As far as more teams, everyone discusses how there's only so much money to go around in this market, which is a fact. That does affect attendance/support for all teams, including the Gophers. And that affects the ability for all of them to win.

 

[howeda7]

Other than Xcel, is there state money in any of our big league arenas/stadiums? Xcel seemed to get built, with a big state general fund contribution, with very little controversy. Targer Field is a Hennepin County deal. US Bank is largely pull tabs and I believe city venture. Target Center was built by Harv and Marv, but sold to the City, although I don't believe the city was necessarily wild about it - there was a legislative piece to it. And Target Center was remodeled with city and maybe pull tab dollars I believe.

Even with a legislature that spends money like drunken sailors, I can't foresee any kind of state contribution to a new arena for the Wolves. City of Minneapolis? Hard to imagine anyone in that inside out asylum championing an arena bill. I can't see Glen putting up a billion himself for a new arena. How does this get done?

The Vikings stadium has (had) state funds backing up the pulltabs because they flopped out of the gate. But I'm pretty sure they took off so much that all the state $$ was given back.

As far as I know, the restriction the city of Minneapolis passed in the 90's to stop funding for the Twins stadium is still in place, so they likely can't/won't contribute anything to a new arena. It will have to come from the state or county.

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

If the NY Post article is accurate, Alex should have been able to raise the money...except he has no track record and he got greedy. I would think most investors won't take a second meeting if you are selling 75% equity on a 100% investment and pocketing the difference. Lore shouldn't have let him go off on his own.

I never said the Post article wasn’t accurate.

I simply relayed information from another article and my perspective regarding it. In taking it a step further, an adroit businessman wouldn’t have been offering those terms, as they would have realized they wouldn’t be acceptable to the people’s who have that type of cash to invest. Additionally, they wouldn’t insult those coveted and cultivated contacts in that manner, as those folks will be less likely to hear your next pitch.

So those points support my contention that Alex was in front of his skis in this arena. Big difference between checkers and chess.

 

[MplsGopher]

Omaha built a ballpark that sits empty and all used all summer for the CWS. I would think that if they could get a big league team, that the city would make the necessary upgrades to CHI or build a new arena.

I figured it was used by a MiLB team, but I just checked and there is a completely separate ballpark for the city's AAA team that only seats around 8500.

I guess the CWS stadium is way too big. Crazy

Not that it tells the whole story but OKC is actually a top 50 television market, at least by DMA (New Orleans is actually a smaller market than OKC by DMA). Omaha is 75 or 76.

MSP is 15. St Louis is 24. KC is a top 50 market but further down the line. Other than Seattle, which almost certainly will be an expansion team, there isn't a larger market without an NBA team. But does being #30 make that much difference when compared to #15? Is the local television contract more lucrative in a less crowded market? Is there any value anymore in any other than the largest markets for a local tv contract?

None bigger in the US you mean. Supposedly Mexico City is being considered. Vancouver was tried and failed. I have no idea if Calgary or Edmonton would be any better.

New Orleans is not that big but has old money. It's grandfathered in like (but to a lesser extend than) Green Bay and Buffalo.

I would not think it would matter that much between KC, STL, Louisville, Cincy, Nashville, Columbus, or Pittsburgh. I don't know if Indy, Cleveland, or Memphis have any "rights" to block new teams in any of those markets.

Big TV ratings come from (national) casual tuneins. I'm sure the market matters some, but not the end all. Wonder what percentage of the MSP market actually tunes into Twolves games? Hard to tune them in if they aren't on your channel package!

 

[gophersfan]

David Samson explains why Timberwolves sale fell apart, details dealings with A-Rod

On 'The Dan Le Batard Show,' David Samson detailed his dealings with Alex Rodriguez and his failed purchase of the Minnesota Timberwolves.

awfulannouncing.com

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

 

[jamiche]

The article never said they put up the money. All they had to say is we funded the deal. The money is in escrow pending NBA approval.

 

[jamiche]

Kessler is not a good substitute at 5% cost. Without Gobert, this team is nowhere near the top of the west this season.

The Wolves have cap issues because of KAT's contract, not Gobert. It has been discussed since last offseason that KAT will likely be moved at some point, potentially after this season. Naz is his younger replacement at a lower cost, and they have already proved they can compete at a high level without KAT. They don't have to break up the team, and again, this has been explained repeatedly to you.

As far as more teams, everyone discusses how there's only so much money to go around in this market, which is a fact. That does affect attendance/support for all teams, including the Gophers. And that affects the ability for all of them to win.

We can upgrade the Rudy deal from Herschel territory to just bad.

If you move KAT and replace him with Naz, you've lost the amazing depth that Naz provides. The new CBA will make it harder to get big returns for big contracts.

Everybody knows there's plenty of money to go around for winning teams in this market. That's the way it is in most markets. The only team that's immune to losing support under any circumstances is the Vikings.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

Jamiche and tiki Ted go to many wolves games. 2 of the best wolves fans I know.