Saying 'we have to get better,' Fleck tackles struggling football program

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What was this thread about? oh, yeah - are the Gophers a "struggling" program?

I would define a "struggling" program as one that is winning 3 or 4 games a year, and not going to a bowl game. Like the Gophers under Wacker most of the time.

I would term the Kill-Claeys era as average. I know some use the term "mediocre." Technically, mediocre can mean average, but I think that mediocre has a more negative connotation. to me, I hear "mediocre" and I think below average.

Again, maybe I have a different perspective. I'm 62 years old and I've suffered through some really bad Gopher teams. Back then, if you would have offered me 8 wins and a bowl game, I would have leapt at the offer. I don't take winning seasons for granted. I don't take bowl games for granted.

Yes, maybe Fleck is setting his sights higher. And maybe Fleck will push/pull the Gophers to a higher level of play and a higher level of results. That would be wonderful. But, I will NOT criticize Fleck for a 7 or 8-win season and a bowl game. Because I know how much that would have meant to me in the down years. I will never take victories lightly.

Now, if Fleck wins, say, 7 games, and you want to argue that it could/should have been 8 or 9 games, that is a different argument.
 


short ornery norwegian said:
What was this thread about? oh, yeah - are the Gophers a "struggling" program?

I would define a "struggling" program as one that is winning 3 or 4 games a year, and not going to a bowl game. Like the Gophers under Wacker most of the time.

I would term the Kill-Claeys era as average. I know some use the term "mediocre." Technically, mediocre can mean average, but I think that mediocre has a more negative connotation. to me, I hear "mediocre" and I think below average.

Again, maybe I have a different perspective. I'm 62 years old and I've suffered through some really bad Gopher teams. Back then, if you would have offered me 8 wins and a bowl game, I would have leapt at the offer. I don't take winning seasons for granted. I don't take bowl games for granted.

Yes, maybe Fleck is setting his sights higher. And maybe Fleck will push/pull the Gophers to a higher level of play and a higher level of results. That would be wonderful. But, I will NOT criticize Fleck for a 7 or 8-win season and a bowl game. Because I know how much that would have meant to me in the down years. I will never take victories lightly.

Now, if Fleck wins, say, 7 games, and you want to argue that it could/should have been 8 or 9 games, that is a different argument.
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Gotta stop using "making a bowl game" as a metric of success, it is beyond watered down.
 

Spoofin said:
So the idea here that Josh raised and that JB is doubling down on is that Claeys didn't even want to win at a high level. Yeah, that seems perfectly reasonable and not influenced by personal bias at all.
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Again, I never said anything in my post about Tracy Claeys. I was talking about one poster's satisfaction of 5 straight bowl appearances and winning 8 games in three of the years as proof of "a darn good program."
 

joshvanklomp said:
Again, I never said anything in my post about Tracy Claeys. I was talking about one poster's satisfaction of 5 straight bowl appearances and winning 8 games in three of the years as proof of "a darn good program."
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I interpreted the below quote - which got all this started - as a comparison to other coaches. Re-reading your post now and I guess that may not have been the point, although it seems I wasn't the only one to get mixed up. My bad.

joshvanklomp said:
That's the difference between Fleck's vision and the vision of many others.
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joshvanklomp said:
Again, I never said anything in my post about Tracy Claeys. I was talking about one poster's satisfaction of 5 straight bowl appearances and winning 8 games in three of the years as proof of "a darn good program."
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I'll say this again,
Wouldn't any coach have a vision of winning championships, no matter where they are at? It is a fairly ridiculous statement to say PJ has grander visions for championships than any other coach that the U has ever hired or any other coach in the entire country. When a coach enters a program it may take longer to achieve at a really high level, based on how solid or messed up the program was when they took over. But every coach believes and wants to take the program they are head of and make it as successful as possible.
It's not any easy task to go out and win at a high level if you don't have admin. support. It's been a long time since that has been the case at the U. We are in a better position now in those regards, and that has nothing to do with PJ, as the stadium and athletes village were added before he arrived. Along with that, there has been a bigger financial commitment towards the football program.
 

GFBfan said:
I'll say this again,
Wouldn't any coach have a vision of winning championships, no matter where they are at? It is a fairly ridiculous statement to say PJ has grander visions for championships than any other coach that the U has ever hired or any other coach in the entire country. When a coach enters a program it may take longer to achieve at a really high level, based on how solid or messed up the program was when they took over. But every coach believes and wants to take the program they are head of and make it as successful as possible.
It's not any easy task to go out and win at a high level if you don't have admin. support. It's been a long time since that has been the case at the U. We are in a better position now in those regards, and that has nothing to do with PJ, as the stadium and athletes village were added before he arrived. Along with that, there has been a bigger financial commitment towards the football program.
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Either it's my fault for not knowing that the poster Heracles is apparently a college football coach, or people still aren't grasping the simple concept that I didn't say anything in my initial post about Tracy Claeys or any other college football coach.

I was talking about fan expectations. Apparently winning going to bowl games is good enough for certain Minnesota fans to label this "a darn good program." I disagree.
 

"If they're complaining about how you're winning you are doing alright." - Bud Grant
 

joshvanklomp said:
Either it's my fault for not knowing that the poster Heracles is apparently a college football coach, or people still aren't grasping the simple concept that I didn't say anything in my initial post about Tracy Claeys or any other college football coach.

I was talking about fan expectations. Apparently winning going to bowl games is good enough for certain Minnesota fans to label this "a darn good program." I disagree.
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Go back and read Heracles post. Nowhere in his post did he say that what has happened was good enough.
What asked was why the "Struggling Program" label was put on this program. We Have NOT been struggling. If you think we have been struggling the past 4 years, then what the he)) would you call what has happened in years prior to that under coaches Wacker, Brewster and others?

We have been a darn good program and if you can't see that, then I feel bad for you. We have not reached the pinnacle, but to say we aren't a good program is ludicrous.
We'll never know if the Kill/Claeys regime would have been able to take us into that top tier. You and others can think they wouldn't have, but myself and others can think they would. Neither side will find out one way or the other, because they are no longer here. To say they didn't have the vision to want to get there is also just as ludicrous.

What we all will get a chance to see is if PJ can do it, because he is our coach now. He has the right vision to do that, I believe both of us don't doubt that one bit.
 



GFBfan said:
Go back and read Heracles post. Nowhere in his post did he say that what has happened was good enough.
What asked was why the "Struggling Program" label was put on this program. We Have NOT been struggling. If you think we have been struggling the past 4 years, then what the he)) would you call what has happened in years prior to that under coaches Wacker, Brewster and others?

We have been a darn good program and if you can't see that, then I feel bad for you. We have not reached the pinnacle, but to say we aren't a good program is ludicrous.
We'll never know if the Kill/Claeys regime would have been able to take us into that top tier. You and others can think they wouldn't have, but myself and others can think they would. Neither side will find out one way or the other, because they are no longer here. To say they didn't have the vision to want to get there is also just as ludicrous.

What we all will get a chance to see is if PJ can do it, because he is our coach now. He has the right vision to do that, I believe both of us don't doubt that one bit.
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50 years without a conference championship is struggling. If it isn't for you, more power to ya!
 

joshvanklomp said:
That's the difference between Fleck's vision and the vision of many others.

It's great that you're satisfied with five bowl games or eight win seasons in three of four seasons. He's probably not going to be happy if that's the high point of where the program is in 5 years.

50 years without a conference championship. That's not success to me, and it isn't to coach Fleck either.
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Thank GOD we finally got a coach who wanted to win a conf. championship.......

I think the point is that the program is not headed in the wrong direction. Many like to argue it was stalled at it's max, but that is still not "headed in the wrong' direction.

This is a program that needs to take a step or even a leap forward, and Fleck was chosen to do this. That's great and I am looking forward to the improvements of the team, but this isn't a turnaround and it wasn't a struggling team. It has recently been an above average to good, and sometimes very good team, but not a great team. It is a team that needs to take the next step (or steps) to get to a conference championship/Rose Bowl or beyond.

We're not reversing years of decline, that work has been done, we're working to elevate. There is a difference, and that difference matters - and it does absolutely nothing to suggest any issue with PJ Fleck being the coach.
 

joshvanklomp said:
50 years without a conference championship is struggling. If it isn't for you, more power to ya!
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Why do you think we have gone so long without a BIG title?
Did the coaches not have that as a goal?
Were the coaches around long enough to put in their "system"?
Did the admin. support the program financially?
Or was it some other thing?
 

Heading to Deschutes sometime after 6 PM tonight, if you are in Portland... swing by and we'll take over the place.
 



If you have never been enlightened of a situation after getting both sides then you are a fool.
 



GFBfan said:
Wouldn't any coach have a vision of winning championships, no matter where they are at?
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I see a difference between "visions" and "vision".

Many coaches have "visions" of winning games and winning conference championships. Meaning that they may dream about it, want it more than anyone else, and even work as hard as the can to make that dream come true. However, they may not have any plan on how to actually get that ship to dock.

Other coaches want the same thing, but they have their own "vision", and that is what I believe Fleck has. He has a roadmap to where he wants to be. He knows there are no shortcuts on that journey, that it must be built the way he has planned. And I believe 100% that he has a concrete plan that he believes in.

Whether or not he reaches the promised land has yet to be written, but I do believe that Fleck has the vision, rather than simply visions of getting there.
 

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