Richard & Tubby Through 6 Seasons: A Follow-Up Comparison

[MinnGopher]

Said i was in favor of keeping him unless there was a upgrade they could get. If he goes 8-12 next year i favor him being gone and will no longer support the program financially. There are a great many people who feel this this way. Your right about the every 5-6 years change but what it means to me is that we simply have not found the right guy .

I agree with the upgrade part...Do it while you can get the big name, and I do believe that Coyle would do that, see Fleck. Regardless of if you like him, Coyle got after him early and sealed the deal. I would hope he would do it with the Basketball program if he is skeptical about Pitino.

As far as him not being the right guy, I don't think he's the right guy but I don't know that he is the wrong one either. It just gets more unlikely that he is the guy the further he gets in his term without somewhat of high level success (B1G tourney final, top 4 B1G season, Sweet 16). Also maybe my expectation are lower than others, but if we can win 22-23 games on average and go .500 in B1G I think we keep him to stabilize. Maybe I am just that defeated when it comes to Gophers basketball success, but I think its fairly realistic.

 

[rockford]

This just tells me that this isn't as easy a job as some would like to believe. Simply thinking you can "plug and play" the next hot name isn't always the fix. A future HOF coach struggled to win here consistently. I'm in favor of giving a 36 year old head coach in the toughest conference in America more time to get things figured out. This year was a good first step.

Yep.

JTG

 

[builtbadgers]

I agree with the upgrade part...Do it while you can get the big name, and I do believe that Coyle would do that, see Fleck. Regardless of if you like him, Coyle got after him early and sealed the deal. I would hope he would do it with the Basketball program if he is skeptical about Pitino.

As far as him not being the right guy, I don't think he's the right guy but I don't know that he is the wrong one either. It just gets more unlikely that he is the guy the further he gets in his term without somewhat of high level success (B1G tourney final, top 4 B1G season, Sweet 16). Also maybe my expectation are lower than others, but if we can win 22-23 games on average and go .500 in B1G I think we keep him to stabilize. Maybe I am just that defeated when it comes to Gophers basketball success, but I think its fairly realistic.

Great take. Really respect the idea that you know what is good enough for you. That is the reminder that each fan can decide for themselves.

 

[MinnGopher]

Great take. Really respect the idea that you know what is good enough for you. That is the reminder that each fan can decide for themselves.

Thanks man...I think that is the difference on forums a lot of time, although I don't think I've really thought of it that way. Some people expect final fours or coming damn close and some just want to see a consistently solid product. I just want to be able to pack in to the barn on those cold ass nights with my dad or buddies and watch a team that has a chance to win every time they step on the floor. To me this means being a top 30-35ish team, although we will have years above and below.

 

[salzie]

Great take. Really respect the idea that you know what is good enough for you. That is the reminder that each fan can decide for themselves.

We all have different bars. There are some I swear that think we should be a blue blood program.

I want a fairly consistent winner with the occasional sweet 16 run, anything else is gravy. I don't expect a 20 straight year run of NCAA tourney appearances, I do expect (and want) more than 1 tourney win every 5-10 years



Pitino has made some mistakes on character, you are correct. He gambled a bit and lost. For those clamoring for Hoiberg (I don't believe you're one) he also gambled on some character guys and won.

I don't agree you stick with a guy for sake of continuity, but restarting constantly is also not the answer. You keep referencing Pitino, the U has whole needs to decide what it wants to be.

I think Pitino can be the guy, I'm not saying he's the guy, but I think he can get us to the above conditions.

And if not, I'll wish him the best going forward and welcome our new coach and most likely in 5-6 years be defending him too from everyone wanting him fired

 

[salzie]

Said i was in favor of keeping him unless there was a upgrade they could get. If he goes 8-12 next year i favor him being gone and will no longer support the program financially. There are a great many people who feel this this way. Your right about the every 5-6 years change but what it means to me is that we simply have not found the right guy .

what if we go 8-12 in B1G, but gets hot in B1G and NCAA tourney

 

[builtbadgers]

We all have different bars. There are some I swear that think we should be a blue blood program.

I want a fairly consistent winner with the occasional sweet 16 run, anything else is gravy.

Pitino has made some mistakes on character, you are correct. He gambled a bit and lost. For those clamoring for Hoiberg (I don't believe you're one) he also gambled on some character guys and won.

I don't agree you stick with a guy for sake of continuity, but restarting constantly is also not the answer. You keep referencing Pitino, the U has whole needs to decide what it wants to be.

I think Pitino can be the guy, I'm not saying he's the guy, but I think he can get us to the above conditions.

And if not, I'll wish him the best going forward and welcome our new coach and most likely in 5-6 years be defending him too from everyone wanting him fired

Well said. I just want to be a top 4 conference team nearly every year. I never worry about the tourney as if you do the first part enough you eventually get your tourney success. Always build the foundation rock solid on principle. A wise coach told me that get the people you can lose with together because if they stay together they will win as upperclassmen. Then as your winning you can get better players but never budging on principles. You have to have non-negotiables like playing great defense and taking good shots or you can not play because you can not sustain success. The high points of the plan are simple, achieving them hard. But in studying every non blue blood that became great this is what they did . When you see these teams practice you just can not believe the difference in the level of what they teach and how well they teach compared to the rest. Pitino may become that guy but he better do it soon. There is no way to absorb a 8-12 type year next year.

 

[salzie]

Well said. I just want to be a top 4 conference team nearly every year. I never worry about the tourney as if you do the first part enough you eventually get your tourney success. Always build the foundation rock solid on principle. A wise coach told me that get the people you can lose with together because if they stay together they will win as upperclassmen. Then as your winning you can get better players but never budging on principles. You have to have non-negotiables like playing great defense and taking good shots or you can not play because you can not sustain success. The high points of the plan are simple, achieving them hard. But in studying every non blue blood that became great this is what they did . When you see these teams practice you just can not believe the difference in the level of what they teach and how well they teach compared to the rest. Pitino may become that guy but he better do it soon. There is no way to absorb a 8-12 type year next year.

And many of see that potential in Oturu/Gabe/and Omersa.

 

[builtbadgers]

what if we go 8-12 in B1G, but gets hot in B1G and NCAA tourney

I think if we go 8-12 we will not do well in the conference tourney or make the NCAA tourney. From what i see, my opinion only i see the conference getting better. Indiana will be better, Ohio State is going to become a powerhouse, Iowa returns a boatload although the defense may hold them back. Michigan and MSU are NOT going away, Illinois will be better, UW is going to hold their place, Purdue has Painter. That is just 8 to start with. doing great can still happen . I have seen it happen in conferences with better programs than what i listed. Hell, UW did it and they were worse off than we are.

 

[BarnBurner]

Support for Pitino is on a issue by issue basis. Remember,it is opinion. Example- I like how he has handled IW, I like the talent he has recruited, but dislike all the shortcuts taken on character. I like the staff he has now, dislike never installing a identity, dislike the 40-70 conference record, the never contending in the conference in 6 years. In favor of replacing him if you can tell me who the new coach is that is better. That would require getting a top 50 coach to come here or discovering that unknown superstar coach.

Name the names that would come to MN built, that you feel would reach your standards of success. This should not be difficult for someone that closely follows college bb and has the connections you do.

 

[builtbadgers]

None in the known commodity category. They all have better jobs or will be getting better jobs. You have to find them before they are known and almost all come from a lower level like a mid major or a horrible power conference program that they turned around. All the guys i like are guys that already did it that i liked before they did it. D3 and d2 coaches can do it. Assistants at power schools can do it. Never said it was easy because it is not but the list is getting damn long of guys that took over struggling programs and did far better than what we have here. I actually laid out a plan not only on here but directly to the AD as asked and it was rejected for a plan he already had in mind. We, until now have had absolute failure in hiring AD's.

 

[BarnBurner]

None in the known commodity category. They all have better jobs or will be getting better jobs. You have to find them before they are known and almost all come from a lower level like a mid major or a horrible power conference program that they turned around. All the guys i like are guys that already did it that i liked before they did it. D3 and d2 coaches can do it. Assistants at power schools can do it. Never said it was easy because it is not but the list is getting damn long of guys that took over struggling programs and did far better than what we have here. I actually laid out a plan not only on here but directly to the AD as asked and it was rejected for a plan he already had in mind. We, until now have had absolute failure in hiring AD's.

Hmm.

What coaching jobs do you consider better than the U of MN? How many coaching jobs are better than the U of MN?

Who are the coaches that you identify that will be moving to better jobs?

 

[PMWinSTP]

what if we go 8-12 in B1G, but gets hot in B1G and NCAA tourney

That would mean at best Gophs would probably be what, 18-13 at the end of the regular season? I would think they'd most likely need to win the B1G tourney to make the NCAA tourney.

 

[salzie]

That would mean at best Gophs would probably be what, 18-13 at the end of the regular season? I would think they'd most likely need to win the B1G tourney to make the NCAA tourney.

Hey, I didn't work the numbers, but about that sounds right

 

[BarnBurner]

Calling builtbadgers

 

[CPTMidnight]

There is a lot of talk about people not having high standards (or bar) for the program. It is a bit puzzling to me. Just for the record - is there anyone here that is demanding a minimum of 3 wins in the B1G as the measure of success? Thought it would be good to give these guys equal time...

 

[builtbadgers]

Hmm.

What coaching jobs do you consider better than the U of MN? How many coaching jobs are better than the U of MN?

Who are the coaches that you identify that will be moving to better jobs?

I would say there are at least 50 better programs when looking at history, academics, climate, prestige. How many do you think ? The coaches with better jobs are not coming here. The top 6 in the ACC have better jobs, maybe more, same big 10, same SEC, Same Big 12, 5-6 jobs and coaches in the Pac are better and then places and coaches like Nova, Whichita, Gonzaga, Marquette, Xavier, Cinncinnati . None of those coaches are coming here. If your talking about what jobs will be open or are then Minnesota would rank as one of the best available. Who goes where will sort out starting final 4 weekend. UCLA is putting forth 75 million for 10 years for Bennett, doubt he takes it. They will not get there first choice but they can get Muss and will do it at a lower number. Think Walton would be a great hire there or Arizona if Miller leaves. Buzz Williams is likely to take Texas AM , we could not get him over AM. It just goes on and on as more openings happen. That is why we only change when it is a upgrade or it has gone stale. I do not see the upgrade coming here and for me it is not stale yet but it is in the danger Zone. Dwindling crowds and lower big donor money is a very dangerous place. I laid out in other posts how the best hires happen, how they go about the process and it was not the way Teague did it. Keep in mind, i hoped like hell it would work out and still do but a 8-12 would finish it off for me.

 

[builtbadgers]

There is a lot of talk about people not having high standards (or bar) for the program. It is a bit puzzling to me. Just for the record - is there anyone here that is demanding a minimum of 3 wins in the B1G as the measure of success? Thought it would be good to give these guys equal time...

No but there are a ton of people who think 9-11 is pretty damn good and are just fine with that. Each fan can decide for themselves what is great, good, average or poor. My entire being is built on demanding excellence in performance. Of course it does always work out, including my own losses. But teams i support must win a conference title at least once in 10 years and make a run or two in the tournament. Why pay a coach millions to be way under .500 . We do not pay our partners big bucks if they do not win big. There are posts saying finishing in the middle is all the expect. Fine.

 

[Gopherfan84]

I would say there are at least 50 better programs when looking at history, academics, climate, prestige. How many do you think ? The coaches with better jobs are not coming here. The top 6 in the ACC have better jobs, maybe more, same big 10, same SEC, Same Big 12, 5-6 jobs and coaches in the Pac are better and then places and coaches like Nova, Whichita, Gonzaga, Marquette, Xavier, Cinncinnati . None of those coaches are coming here. If your talking about what jobs will be open or are then Minnesota would rank as one of the best available. Who goes where will sort out starting final 4 weekend. UCLA is putting forth 75 million for 10 years for Bennett, doubt he takes it. They will not get there first choice but they can get Muss and will do it at a lower number. Think Walton would be a great hire there or Arizona if Miller leaves. Buzz Williams is likely to take Texas AM , we could not get him over AM. It just goes on and on as more openings happen. That is why we only change when it is a upgrade or it has gone stale. I do not see the upgrade coming here and for me it is not stale yet but it is in the danger Zone. Dwindling crowds and lower big donor money is a very dangerous place. I laid out in other posts how the best hires happen, how they go about the process and it was not the way Teague did it. Keep in mind, i hoped like hell it would work out and still do but a 8-12 would finish it off for me.

Getting someone better than What Pitino is right can is not easy as it sounds. Most guys will view this as top 75 job, but not a top 50. Best luck would be finding a diamond in the rough or one who hasn't arrived yet. Would take a guy like Craig Smith who's unproven. Scary jump to take. We aren't getting a known commodity right now.

 

[Otis]

How do these guys rank against each other in seasons derailed by injuries, suspensions and off-court issues decimating the lineup?

Tubby:
Mbawkwe - (slap incident)
Nolen - grades and injury
White - Shoplifting, accused theft
Iversen - Transfer
Guard - transfers (at least 2 I can think of where they did great elsewhere, Cobb)

Pitino:
McNeil - Domestic Assault (later murder)
Mason, McBrayer and Kevin - Film studies
Reggie - various sexual assault claims
Coffey - injury
Mason - injury (twice, one for Middle Tennessee game)
McBrayer - injury
Grad Transfer - injury

Can't think of a single transfer under Pitino where they have done anything.

Which one was more done in by circumstances? I'd say Pitino. However, Royce could have changed the program all by himself, hard to say how much his not having a 2 or 3 year Gopher career set back the program.

 

[ltf]

How do these guys rank against each other in seasons derailed by injuries, suspensions and off-court issues decimating the lineup?

Tubby:
Mbawkwe - (slap incident)
Nolen - grades and injury
White - Shoplifting, accused theft
Iversen - Transfer
Guard - transfers (at least 2 I can think of where they did great elsewhere, Cobb)

Pitino:
McNeil - Domestic Assault (later murder)
Mason, McBrayer and Kevin - Film studies
Reggie - various sexual assault claims
Coffey - injury
Mason - injury (twice, one for Middle Tennessee game)
McBrayer - injury
Grad Transfer - injury

Can't think of a single transfer under Pitino where they have done anything.

Which one was more done in by circumstances? I'd say Pitino. However, Royce could have changed the program all by himself, hard to say how much his not having a 2 or 3 year Gopher career set back the program.

Joseph would be the 2nd guard. This is a huge difference for me. Tubby had underclassmen who were starters that left the program. Richard's players have stuck by him, even during difficult circimstances. I still cant believe IW stays, but if he does that will say a lot for the relationship Pitino has with his players as well.

 

[cjbfbp]

However, Royce could have changed the program all by himself, hard to say how much his not having a 2 or 3 year Gopher career set back the program.

No! His subsequent career demonstrated that the potential you are describing was never very likely. Royce was a head case. Hoiberg managed to get one very good year out of him but no one else over the next five years or so did. He finally managed to keep it together when he went to Canada about 7 years after leaving here.

 

[BarnBurner]

I would say there are at least 50 better programs when looking at history, academics, climate, prestige. How many do you think ? The coaches with better jobs are not coming here. The top 6 in the ACC have better jobs, maybe more, same big 10, same SEC, Same Big 12, 5-6 jobs and coaches in the Pac are better and then places and coaches like Nova, Whichita, Gonzaga, Marquette, Xavier, Cinncinnati . None of those coaches are coming here. If your talking about what jobs will be open or are then Minnesota would rank as one of the best available. Who goes where will sort out starting final 4 weekend. UCLA is putting forth 75 million for 10 years for Bennett, doubt he takes it. They will not get there first choice but they can get Muss and will do it at a lower number. Think Walton would be a great hire there or Arizona if Miller leaves. Buzz Williams is likely to take Texas AM , we could not get him over AM. It just goes on and on as more openings happen. That is why we only change when it is a upgrade or it has gone stale. I do not see the upgrade coming here and for me it is not stale yet but it is in the danger Zone. Dwindling crowds and lower big donor money is a very dangerous place. I laid out in other posts how the best hires happen, how they go about the process and it was not the way Teague did it. Keep in mind, i hoped like hell it would work out and still do but a 8-12 would finish it off for me.

History and prestige? The kids of today only know Puke, Kansas, UNC (cheaters, btw), etc. They dont even know who Wooden was. Academics? I think UNC go heels is a perfect example of the academic side of college BB. If a kid wants to earn a degree, he will. If not, he may still get a degree. BIG difference. MN appears to require kids earn there degree, while others do not Go Heels! Do you suppose that plays into decision making of the kid? Some of them for certain.

To some kids, I am sure the climate if a factor, however I cant imagine many kids would be so turned off they would discount all the other positives such as the facilities, academics, metro area.

How many better jobs? Let's make a list, based on "success" on the court over the past two decades: Puke, UNC, Kansas, Arizona, Nova, Xavier, Butler, Cincy, Florida, FSU, MSU, Michigan, Wisky, UVA, Texas, OSU, Purdue, Gonzaga, Tennessee, Kentucky, Maryland, Iowa, Washington, UCLA, Oklahoma, Ia State, K State, Oregon, Cuse, Baylor, Nevada, Lville, Ok State, Illinois, Whichita, Marq, VA Tech, Miami

That is 38. What are the others you feel are better jobs?

BTW - Tony better grab 7.5 annually. That does not come around every day.

 

[BarnBurner]

Getting someone better than What Pitino is right can is not easy as it sounds. Most guys will view this as top 75 job, but not a top 50. Best luck would be finding a diamond in the rough or one who hasn't arrived yet. Would take a guy like Craig Smith who's unproven. Scary jump to take. We aren't getting a known commodity right now.

What are the reasons this job is not top 25?

 

[JimmyJamesMD]

What are the reasons this job is not top 25?

Inner city campus - not a college feel

 

[builtbadgers]

History and prestige? The kids of today only know Puke, Kansas, UNC (cheaters, btw), etc. They dont even know who Wooden was. Academics? I think UNC go heels is a perfect example of the academic side of college BB. If a kid wants to earn a degree, he will. If not, he may still get a degree. BIG difference. MN appears to require kids earn there degree, while others do not Go Heels! Do you suppose that plays into decision making of the kid? Some of them for certain.

To some kids, I am sure the climate if a factor, however I cant imagine many kids would be so turned off they would discount all the other positives such as the facilities, academics, metro area.

How many better jobs? Let's make a list, based on "success" on the court over the past two decades: Puke, UNC, Kansas, Arizona, Nova, Xavier, Butler, Cincy, Florida, FSU, MSU, Michigan, Wisky, UVA, Texas, OSU, Purdue, Gonzaga, Tennessee, Kentucky, Maryland, Iowa, Washington, UCLA, Oklahoma, Ia State, K State, Oregon, Cuse, Baylor, Nevada, Lville, Ok State, Illinois, Whichita, Marq, VA Tech, Miami

That is 38. What are the others you feel are better jobs?

BTW - Tony better grab 7.5 annually. That does not come around every day.

Would be damn surprised if he took it.
i WOULD ADD TO THE LIST - Memphis,UCONN,NCSTATE,NOTRE DAME,WEST VIRGINIA,INDIANA,DAVIDSON,UTAH,STANFORD,S.CAROLINA,MISSOURI,TEXAS TECH,BYU. I left out any IVY's even though 3 of them have not only been more successful but are better jobs for the right guy. Better jobs is very subjective and a fan base could go round and round about it and never agree. I could easily sell this as a top 25 job for potential and all there is to offer which brings us back again to what terrible leadership we have had. I know what that looks like as UW was like that and UVA was mostly middling for their history except for the Sampson years but similar to us in being under .500 in conference with only 3 titles ! Nova was in the wilderness for 20 years before hiring Jay. Every single program suffers terribly when they hire less than stellar coaches. Great AD can change the entire picture for a athletic department because he knows how to find the right coach.

 

[builtbadgers]

What are the reasons this job is not top 25?

What would be your reasons ? Mine have been, bad AD'S, UNDER.500 coaches, history, location. Those 4 are enough to suck for a long time. This should be on par with UW.

 

[Gopherfan84]

What are the reasons this job is not top 25?

The jobs value is in the eye of the beholder (TT is higher to Beard than anyone else in the country probably. Top 75 to most). To some MN is a top 25 job (Flip, Miles, Medved, Hoiberg), to most it's just not. Bad history of scandal, support, facilities (all fixable) and a inner city/terrible climate(Not fixable)

 

[BarnBurner]

What would be your reasons ? Mine have been, bad AD'S, UNDER.500 coaches, history, location. Those 4 are enough to suck for a long time. This should be on par with UW.

Piss poor leadership from the administration.

Culture of hammering athletics. This continues to this day.

Baring your soul to the ncaa. Not smart.

 

[BarnBurner]

The jobs value is in the eye of the beholder (TT is higher to Beard than anyone else in the country probably. Top 75 to most). To some MN is a top 25 job (Flip, Miles, Medved, Hoiberg), to most it's just not. Bad history of scandal, support, facilities (all fixable) and a inner city/terrible climate(Not fixable)

Agree on the eye of the beholder.

Scandal. It killed men’s bb for a long time.

How did a much, much worse academic scandal at go Heels impact that program?