Red Zone Offense

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glovedgopher

glovedgopher

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Hopefully, we can improve greatly on our Red Zone offense against NDSU this week and get the blow out we all want. I think putting Max in at QB with Gray at WR might be something the coaches look at doing more often. I think Max can execute the jump ball/fade route to these guys working on smaller CBs for some easy scores. Also, McKnight and Gray split out would get the FS and SS out of the box and leave more room for the running game and the TE to work underneath.
 

The play calling has been substantially worse in the redzone than the rest of the field IMO

You can put Shortell in to throw the fade if you want, by he is just as inaccurate with the ball as gray is.
 

I agree with Rose. I like Kill and the staff but out playcalling in the redzone has been really bad. I don't really like the idea of putting Shortell in, I just think Gray's mobility is probably one of our most likely ways of scoring (or moving the ball in general).

Part of the problem is that we are just unable to run the ball at people and it's hard to do much in the redzone without the ability to run the ball effectively.
 

If the offensive line would develop some "moxy" then play calling wouldn't be as much of an issue.
 

Rosemountian said:
The play calling has been substantially worse in the redzone than the rest of the field IMO

You can put Shortell in to throw the fade if you want, by he is just as inaccurate with the ball as gray is.
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Personally, I think the bigger issue has been that the offensive line can't get us in the end zone (or the first down) on short yardage runs inside the 20. Yes, that means we should prob be passing it more in those situations (i.e. playcalling issues) but seriously, it is pretty bad when 3rd and 1 isn't nearly automatic inside the redzone against MAC/WAC schools. If the O-Line gets things moving a little better I think the "playcalling issues" vanish too.
 


Rosemountian said:
The play calling has been substantially worse in the redzone than the rest of the field IMO

You can put Shortell in to throw the fade if you want, by he is just as inaccurate with the ball as gray is.
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Shortell is not as inaccurate with the ball as Gray. Playing on a short field knowing that the QB wants to run the ball makes it too easy for the other teams' defense. And we know that our O-line can't just lineup and knock people back so we must be creative around the goal line. With their height Gray and McKnight could open up things a great deal in the Red Zone.
 

we execute a bit better in the red zone (i.e. getting 7 instead of 3 on two or three different drives when we had the ball 1st & goal inside the 10) and improve on two makeable field goal tries from 30+ yards out and this team is sitting 3-0 right now (we beat USC) instead of 1-2.
 

Rosemountian said:
The play calling has been substantially worse in the redzone than the rest of the field IMO

You can put Shortell in to throw the fade if you want, by he is just as inaccurate with the ball as gray is.
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That's absolutely laughable.

No doubt, the red zone offense, really short yardage in general, has been a huge liability. I don't know what the answer is but the inability for the Rodents this year to pick up 3rd and 4th down and short has cost them significantly. I'm sure it's being addressed, but I don't think changing QB's in those situations is the answer. The problem runs a lot deeper than that.

It's early. The staff is still learning the strengths and weaknesses of the offense and defense, and individual players as well. For the most part, I'm happy with what I'm seeing, which has been slow, steady progress and improvement.
 




Our Red Zone stats are not that bad.

RED ZONE OFFENSE G Scores-Chances Pct. TDs Rush-Pass Made-Att Fumb Int. Downs Other
1. Nebraska 3 15-15 100.0 11 9-2 4-4 0 0 0 0
Illinois 3 13-13 100.0 10 8-2 3-3 0 0 0 0
Michigan 3 10-10 100.0 9 5-4 1-1 0 0 0 0
4. Wisconsin 3 18-19 94.7 17 9-8 1-1 0 1 0 0
5. Iowa 3 11-12 91.7 7 4-3 4-4 0 0 0 1
6. Minnesota 3 11-13 84.6 7 3-4 4-4 0 1 1 0
7. Purdue 3 14-17 82.4 11 8-3 3-4 0 1 1 0
8. Ohio State 3 9-11 81.8 7 3-4 2-2 1 0 0 1
9. Penn State 3 8-10 80.0 8 8-0 0-2 0 0 0 0
10. Indiana 3 10-13 76.9 7 6-1 3-3 1 0 2 0
11. Northwestern 3 10-14 71.4 10 8-2 0-2 0 0 2 0
12. Michigan State 3 12-17 70.6 9 5-4 3-5 0 1 2 0
 


Bayfieldgopher said:
Our Red Zone stats are not that bad.

RED ZONE OFFENSE G Scores-Chances Pct. TDs Rush-Pass Made-Att Fumb Int. Downs Other
1. Nebraska 3 15-15 100.0 11 9-2 4-4 0 0 0 0
Illinois 3 13-13 100.0 10 8-2 3-3 0 0 0 0
Michigan 3 10-10 100.0 9 5-4 1-1 0 0 0 0
4. Wisconsin 3 18-19 94.7 17 9-8 1-1 0 1 0 0
5. Iowa 3 11-12 91.7 7 4-3 4-4 0 0 0 1
6. Minnesota 3 11-13 84.6 7 3-4 4-4 0 1 1 0
7. Purdue 3 14-17 82.4 11 8-3 3-4 0 1 1 0
8. Ohio State 3 9-11 81.8 7 3-4 2-2 1 0 0 1
9. Penn State 3 8-10 80.0 8 8-0 0-2 0 0 0 0
10. Indiana 3 10-13 76.9 7 6-1 3-3 1 0 2 0
11. Northwestern 3 10-14 71.4 10 8-2 0-2 0 0 2 0
12. Michigan State 3 12-17 70.6 9 5-4 3-5 0 1 2 0
Click to expand...
I know that my disappointment is not with overall RZ stats, but that we've clearly struggled in short yardage situations inside the RZ and as a result, have settled for field goals in situations where we should be able to punch it in for TD.
 




GoAUpher said:
How so? By the only available objective metric (completion %) Gray is more accurate. Gray is 34/65 (52.3%) and Max is 9/20 (45%). Obviously there is a MASSIVE issue with sample size, but what else are we supposed to judge them on?

http://www.gophersports.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/2011-2012/teamcume.html#TEAM.IND

Anything else (Gray looks worse, Max misses throws by less, etc) is subjective.
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I'm going on visual evidence myself. What I've seen visually, from both, it's not that close. Zip on the ball, proximity to target, throwing motion, natural throwing ability, etc. Whatever, the last thing we need is another discussion on Gray vs Shortell. Bottom line, Gray is the man right now so it's not worth debating. He's the starting QB and I'm in full support of him until somebody else is under center.

It's disturbing how ineffective they've been in short yardage though (getting back to the OP). Play-calling, offensive line push, bad matchups, missed opportunities; I'm sure it's a healthy mixture of all of the above. Like I said, I have no doubt Limegrover and company are working hard on it. As another poster mentioned, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say it's cost them at least one game so far. I hope they get it cleaned up.
 

glovedgopher said:
Hopefully, we can improve greatly on our Red Zone offense against NDSU this week and get the blow out we all want. I think putting Max in at QB with Gray at WR might be something the coaches look at doing more often. I think Max can execute the jump ball/fade route to these guys working on smaller CBs for some easy scores. Also, McKnight and Gray split out would get the FS and SS out of the box and leave more room for the running game and the TE to work underneath.
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There is no way the coaches are going to put Gray in at WR. They said he is handling all that he can with the QB spot, why would they make him learn something else at the same time?
 

zambam said:
There is no way the coaches are going to put Gray in at WR. They said he is handling all that he can with the QB spot, why would they make him learn something else at the same time?
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They have already put Gray in as a WR. Running a fade or slant is not that overwhelming. Trust me I'm not trying to start a Gray vs Shortell debate but I think we need to get creative in the Red Zone much like Florida did with Tebow his freshman year.
 

You guys pimping max Shortell as a better QB are funny.


He looked great on 1/3 series vs USC. That's fantastic. He has looked good on 1/6 series he has had this year. "you wanna crown him, then crown his ass."
Adam weber was a better player as a freshman than max (granted different sample sizes).


It is my prediction that Max starts fewer than 14 games in his entire career. I don't know if you have gray underrated or max overrated. I suspect it's a little of both.
 

GoAUpher said:
Personally, I think the bigger issue has been that the offensive line can't get us in the end zone (or the first down) on short yardage runs inside the 20. Yes, that means we should prob be passing it more in those situations (i.e. playcalling issues) but seriously, it is pretty bad when 3rd and 1 isn't nearly automatic inside the redzone against MAC/WAC schools. If the O-Line gets things moving a little better I think the "playcalling issues" vanish too.
Click to expand...

The offensive line is definitely a major problem. You are right the plays they call work with a great offensive line. But when I'm coaching with a poor o line in High school football, I adjust what I do to my players.

3rd and 1 I don't mind running or throwing. They call their game. I do mid when we go triple TE and try to cram it down their throats with an inferior line. I'd rather see them spread it out. Run zone read or get gray on the edge with run/pass option in order to minimize the negative effects of a bad line. Take defenders out of the box. Control defenders by being in formations where gray is a running threat.

That's more what I'm saying. Not insulting individual plays. I'd rather see a little different overall strategy in the red zone a bit. They did spread it out inside the five on one of their TD runs.
 

We will see more new plays this week, and we will see more new plays at Michigan. Building an offense, especially in a first year, is PROGRESSIVE, not recessive. It's done by adding plays.

I don't believe we will ever see Shortell come in just to run the RZO, or just to throw a fade, especially to Gray. You will see plays like the reverse and the sneak from last week or that lot when they are both in there.

Unless Gray has a total collapse or is injured, he will see likely 90% of the snaps this season. He has already shown the potential to not only have a good year, but a GREAT year. Max has shown the potential to have an average year, maybe a good year.

I'll go with Gray.
 

Rosemountian said:
You guys pimping max Shortell as a better QB are funny.


He looked great on 1/3 series vs USC. That's fantastic. He has looked good on 1/6 series he has had this year. "you wanna crown him, then crown his ass."
Adam weber was a better player as a freshman than max (granted different sample sizes).


It is my prediction that Max starts fewer than 14 games in his entire career. I don't know if you have gray underrated or max overrated. I suspect it's a little of both.
Click to expand...

So Gray starts the next two years, and then Shortell starts as a Junior. Do you expect Nelson to step in as (hopefully) a RS Soph.?
 

Rosemountian said:
The offensive line is definitely a major problem. You are right the plays they call work with a great offensive line. But when I'm coaching with a poor o line in High school football, I adjust what I do to my players.

3rd and 1 I don't mind running or throwing. They call their game. I do mid when we go triple TE and try to cram it down their throats with an inferior line. I'd rather see them spread it out. Run zone read or get gray on the edge with run/pass option in order to minimize the negative effects of a bad line. Take defenders out of the box. Control defenders by being in formations where gray is a running threat.

That's more what I'm saying. Not insulting individual plays. I'd rather see a little different overall strategy in the red zone a bit. They did spread it out inside the five on one of their TD runs.
Click to expand...

Totally agree with this. Spread things out on short down and distance. I finally had time to watch the Miami game last night (first half anyway) and on the plays when there was not 8 in the box, the Gophers had some success running the ball. They also called one or two slow-developing plays (reverse, etc.) on 3rd and short, inexplicably. What a mess. Like I said, I'm sure they are working on this and working on some solutions.

For the record, I never said Max was a better QB than Gray. I'm just saying I don't think Gray can hit a bull in the a$$ with a handful of rocks. Gray threw for 90% of his yards in the first half Saturday and he threw two accurate passes that were past the LOS; both 8-10 yard dumps, straight downfield. The others were short flat passes or he missed miserably or was bailed out by the receiver. No, I'm not saying Shortell is a better QB or that he should be starting over Gray; but I'd bet my left nut that Shortell is a better PASSER right now, from what we've seen anyway. I'd be curious to know who McKnight and Moulton would rather have throwing them the ball. McKnight was visibly pissed on a number of plays Saturday when he was wide open and should have gotten the ball. I know, receivers are unhappy all the time and always think they're open, but still.

I'm not real big on Mason but he knows his football and he railed on Gray for most of the game for all the throws he missed, times he ran when he should have found a receiver, etc. It was frightening.

Like I said, Gray is the Gophers starting QB right now so it's not a debate, and I'm behind him 110%. He's the man and as long as he continues to get comfortable in the offense and his confidence continues to grow, the Gophers will be just fine.
 

Personally I'd like us to see us keep taking advantage of our TE's and H-Backs in the red zone passing game, especially off play action. The more we're successful hitting Lair, McGarry, and now Rabe, the more it will open up the run game and leave Dajon with looser coverage.
 

McGarry and Rabe both have TD catches, so they are being used, but I agree there may be ways to spring them open more often.

The interior of the line has to pick things up a bit more. We don't seem to be getting much push out of them. I saw Epping in the game a bit on Saturday. Someone get banged up or was it a performance issue? Whatever, the seniors in the pit have to take over near the goal line. We've got a huge QB and Kirkwood is no midget, so we should be able to do some effective smashmouth down by the goal-line.

As for the Shortell v. Gray stuff, it does seem that some folks want to get Max into the conversation any way possible. I know that's not the intent of the OP, but it does get humorous when a lot of threads swing in that direction.
 

Rosemountian said:
You guys pimping max Shortell as a better QB are funny.


He looked great on 1/3 series vs USC. That's fantastic. He has looked good on 1/6 series he has had this year. "you wanna crown him, then crown his ass."
Adam weber was a better player as a freshman than max (granted different sample sizes).


It is my prediction that Max starts fewer than 14 games in his entire career. I don't know if you have gray underrated or max overrated. I suspect it's a little of both.
Click to expand...

I missed the part in this thread where anybody said that Shortell is a better QB and should be starting ahead of Gray.

Also, can we assume you're comparing Shortell's true freshman year to Weber's redshirt freshman year?
 

I think there is a decent chance max is never the starter and Nelson starts as a redshift freshman or they bring in another QB in some class.
 

Rosemountian said:
I think there is a decent chance max is never the starter and Nelson starts as a redshift freshman or they bring in another QB in some class.
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No doubt. I've always thought this was a possibility. That's why I thought the talk of redshirting Shortell was ridiculous. Saying they should do that is almost like saying you don't think there's a chance they'll recruit a QB of equal or higher caliber at all in the next 4 years. I sure hope that's not the case.

I view this situation similar to the Vikes' situation back in '99 (I think?) when they started the year with Randall Cunningham and had Jeff George as the backup; that year, I drafted George in all my fantasy leagues because I was dead sure, whether it was due to injury or productivity, that Cunningham would not be the QB all season. Sure enough, George was starting before they hit midseason. I feel similarly with Gray and Shortell; with how much Gray runs, and how ineffective he currently is as a passer, I think there's a decent chance he either gets dinged up or benched at some point this year. I hope like heck I'm wrong, but I think he's going to take a major pounding from BT defenses, physically and statistically.
 

Hates Monikers said:
I missed the part in this thread where anybody said that Shortell is a better QB and should be starting ahead of Gray.
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Agree. I haven't read anything from anyone stating that. Gray will continue to play a few plays at WR. He has already and he will again.
 

I hope the trend continues upward. Minnesota was #8 in red zone offense in both 2009 and 2010:

2009

RED ZONE OFFENSE G RedZone Percent TDs R/P FG-AT Fumb/Int/Downs/Other
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Wisconsin........... 13 53-56 94.6 42 30/12 11-13 0/ 0/ 1/ 0
2. Purdue.............. 12 30-34 88.2 25 13/12 5-5 0/ 2/ 2/ 0
3. Penn State.......... 13 43-49 87.8 29 17/12 14-16 1/ 1/ 0/ 2
4. Michigan State...... 13 38-44 86.4 25 11/14 13-13 2/ 1/ 1/ 2
5. Iowa................ 13 31-37 83.8 20 11/9 11-13 0/ 0/ 3/ 1
6. Illinois............ 12 31-38 81.6 25 17/8 6-9 2/ 0/ 0/ 2
7. Northwestern........ 13 36-45 80.0 25 16/9 11-13 2/ 3/ 2/ 0
8. Minnesota........... 13 35-44 79.5 23 13/10 12-14 2/ 1/ 2/ 2
9. Ohio State.......... 13 37-47 78.7 25 15/10 12-17 1/ 2/ 1/ 1
10.Indiana............. 12 34-44 77.3 22 11/11 12-16 2/ 2/ 2/ 0
11.Michigan............ 12 32-48 66.7 25 19/6 7-10 3/ 4/ 5/ 1

2010

RED ZONE OFFENSE G RedZone Percent TDs R/P FG-AT Fumb/Int/Downs/Other
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Illinois............ 13 49-52 94.2 34 23/11 15-16 1/ 0/ 0/ 1
2. Wisconsin........... 13 62-68 91.2 54 39/15 8-8 1/ 1/ 1/ 3
3. Michigan State...... 13 39-44 88.6 30 17/13 9-9 0/ 2/ 2/ 1
4. Indiana............. 12 44-50 88.0 29 10/19 15-16 2/ 1/ 1/ 1
5. Iowa................ 13 43-49 87.8 31 14/17 12-14 1/ 0/ 1/ 2
6. Ohio State.......... 13 57-65 87.7 41 21/20 16-18 1/ 3/ 0/ 2
7. Northwestern........ 13 44-51 86.3 33 21/12 11-13 3/ 1/ 1/ 0
8. Minnesota........... 12 31-37 83.8 22 14/8 9-12 0/ 1/ 1/ 1
9. Purdue.............. 12 27-33 81.8 16 8/8 11-14 0/ 2/ 0/ 1
10.Penn State.......... 13 39-48 81.2 27 16/11 12-14 1/ 2/ 2/ 2
11.Michigan............ 13 44-56 78.6 40 28/12 4-7 3/ 3/ 3/ 0

It should be noted, however, that the Gophers were #3 in 2008 (#7 in 2007).
 

Rosemountian said:
Adam weber was a better player as a freshman than max (granted different sample sizes).
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Not only different sample sizes, apples and oranges. Shortell is playing as a TRUE freshman, Weber red-shirted. You can't compare because you don't know how good Weber was as a true freshman.
 

Sorry guys I didn't mean to start another Gray vs Max thread (really don't know how or why it turned into one). I just like the idea of having all of our weapons on the field down by the goal line when we need a TD. Gray, McKnight and Lair inside the 5yard line would be very hard to stop and it would open up the running game. I know the easy answers is that the O-line needs to block better but I don't see that happening going into Big Ten play. Also, I don't see Gray squeezing footballs into tight spots into the end zone like Tom Brady or Peyton Manning anytime soon. Finally, a QB trying to run balls across the goal line easily leads to big hits and injuries. Just about every great red zone team uses their height or threat of to score touchdowns. Guys like Moss, Carter, TO, Tim Brown and Plax were deadly in the red zone and helped running games greatly inside the 5. A guy like Marcus Robinson made NFL rosters because he was money in a jump ball situation. I know I'm in the minority on this and I won't bitch if we don't go this route but I'm hoping it is something the staff is working on.
 

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