NIT Game #4: #1 Gophers vs. #1 Florida State at MSG [ESPN2, Tues @ 8:00PM]

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It's amazing that Knight was once a good coach when he comes off as such an idiot. The best part about the 10 minutes of nonsense regarding the ball hitting the ref was that even if it hadn't, it still touched FSU last. When they first talked about it they made it seem like we lucked out. I also loved Knight talking about chucking the ball up in the air when it wasn't even relevant at the time and never became relevant. I'm glad the other announcers basically ignored him on that one. Then he managed to finish strong by acting like Mo hitting the bottom of the rim shouldn't count as resetting the shot clock.

Unrelated... but can someone explain to me how you can intentionally foul someone off the ball during the last few minutes before the ball is inbounded? That's what happened at the end, but I feel like I'm missing something. Why wouldn't teams always foul the worst ft shooter and not allow any clock to tick off? I know in the NBA you get the shots and the ball--which makes sense--but I don't see how there wouldn't be a similar rule in college.
 

EG#9 said:
It's hard even to be pumped about this win because I am so pissed at that lack of a foul to prevent a 3 point attempt at the end of OT. It was absolutely atrocious for the Gophers not to foul at the end of regulation, but there is no defense for no foul at the end of OT given the stoppage of time and Pitino's chance to talk to his guys. That's on Coach Pitino, who did an AMAZING job tonight with that glaring mistake.

The Gophers were essentially playing with four guys on the floor at times with Oto in the second half as his injury/conditioning really started to show up when he was forced to play center for extended minutes. Then you had the officials who found a way to put FSU on the line like five times on loose ball fouls. Then you had Malik who was an absolute disaster down the stretch and in overtime.

Big congrats to Mo Walker for stepping up late in overtime and knocking down some important free throws. Kudos to Oto for hustling for that offensive board and generally giving all he had after (I assume) he's been mentally checked out for 2-3 weeks. Austin Hollins made some important shots in the last ten minutes of the second half when points were at a major premium for us.
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With our lack of size, rebounding a missed ft after a make was a concern in my thinking. I was a 100 percent sure once it went OT the season was over for the Gophers.
 

Damn you, gravity! Knight made me think we could just suspend the ball in the air.

Breakin' The Plane said:
I liked when he said he would just throw the ball as high in the air as he could and run 7 or 8 seconds off the clock. I don't think the best punters get 8 seconds of hang time.
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Time for a celebratory Hopslam and then off to bed. I'm exhausted.
 



BreakTheGopherCurse said:
serious question: was that the weirdest game ever or is it just me?
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Florida State has played ugly like this all year long. I live in Tallahassee and witnessed even uglier FSU games than the one we just saw. Hats off to the Gophers for hanging in there and overcoming the injury and foul trouble. Looking forward to a more pleasant game on Thursday.
 

Breakin' The Plane said:
I liked when he said he would just throw the ball as high in the air as he could and run 7 or 8 seconds off the clock. I don't think the best punters get 8 seconds of hang time.
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haha Wasn't there around a minute and a half remaining as well??
 




As exciting as the game was, it was ugly. With EE out and four fouls on King and Mo with about ten minutes left, how did FSU not capitalize and pull that game out? Why didn't they pound it inside all night long? Poor FSU coaching.
 


Florida State should have went to the rim or passed it down low 100% of the time with our foul trouble and lack of bigs. Nice win considering how much height we gave up and missing Elliot down low. Hopefully everyone noticed how nice Andre Hollin's elevated on his one drive to get us two late in the game. That was the first glimpse I've seen of the old Andre. Hopefully we see more on Thursday.
 

afurry91 said:
Florida State has been so much worse. It is just a comedy act out here.
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I've noticed that too. One possible explanation may be that they have an African American as head coach. I'll check with Ron Edwards to get his opinion on it and let you know.
 



Mo goes up with the ball, it's blocked, but it comes off the rim and Florida State should get the ball because, "I'm not even sure that's a shot." Then all of the times where you're wondering if they knew what team was what or what the score even was. Need an honest opinion. Not having seen the telecast, was AggieVision, or whatever the hell it was, worse than this announcing?
 

GophersInIowa said:
Not sure why you or the announcers think it is an obvious decision to foul there. First of all, statistically it has been proven it is better not to foul. Secondly, we are not the best rebounding team in the world.

It's a 50/50 call at best.
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That's what bothered me too. Bring it up as an option. BUt don't say that it's an obvious call and imply we don't know what we are doing.


Do we know what we are doing?
 

EG#9 said:
It certainly hasn't been "proven" statistically that it is better not to foul. Are you referring to this study: http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/basket...ines-whether-you-should-foul?urn=ncaab,265182

Or the other one from ESPN that talks about the NBA, where the 3 point line is another 2 feet back?

Both situations in this game were possessions that started with less than ten seconds remaining in the game. That's a markedly different scenario than simply a team's "last possession" . I am of the strong belief that allowing a decent look at a college 3 pointer as opposed to forcing a player to go to the line, make the first free throw, and then miss the second free throw in such a way that it caroms to a teammate who then makes a shot to tie the game is a really, really bad idea.
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KenPom did something too that had similar results in favor of not fouling. There are plenty of times where players will just turn it over or shoot from past the NBA line anyway just to try to get an open look. I favor my defense here.
 

underground629 said:
It's amazing that Knight was once a good coach when he comes off as such an idiot. The best part about the 10 minutes of nonsense regarding the ball hitting the ref was that even if it hadn't, it still touched FSU last. When they first talked about it they made it seem like we lucked out. I also loved Knight talking about chucking the ball up in the air when it wasn't even relevant at the time and never became relevant. I'm glad the other announcers basically ignored him on that one. Then he managed to finish strong by acting like Mo hitting the bottom of the rim shouldn't count as resetting the shot clock.

Unrelated... but can someone explain to me how you can intentionally foul someone off the ball during the last few minutes before the ball is inbounded? That's what happened at the end, but I feel like I'm missing something. Why wouldn't teams always foul the worst ft shooter and not allow any clock to tick off? I know in the NBA you get the shots and the ball--which makes sense--but I don't see how there wouldn't be a similar rule in college.
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The fouling before the ball is inbounded bothered me as well. Like pulling the guys shorts, etc. Should be a rule adjustment. Perhaps like the nba the shots and the ball if inside two minutes or something,
 

EG#9 said:
It's hard even to be pumped about this win because I am so pissed at that lack of a foul to prevent a 3 point attempt at the end of OT. It was absolutely atrocious for the Gophers not to foul at the end of regulation, but there is no defense for no foul at the end of OT given the stoppage of time and Pitino's chance to talk to his guys. That's on Coach Pitino, who did an AMAZING job tonight with that glaring mistake.

The Gophers were essentially playing with four guys on the floor at times with Oto in the second half as his injury/conditioning really started to show up when he was forced to play center for extended minutes. Then you had the officials who found a way to put FSU on the line like five times on loose ball fouls. Then you had Malik who was an absolute disaster down the stretch and in overtime.

Big congrats to Mo Walker for stepping up late in overtime and knocking down some important free throws. Kudos to Oto for hustling for that offensive board and generally giving all he had after (I assume) he's been mentally checked out for 2-3 weeks. Austin Hollins made some important shots in the last ten minutes of the second half when points were at a major premium for us.
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Two things to think about.. One, FSU had a serious size advantage and would have had better opportunities to rebound a missed FT. Two, the data says defending is a better strategy: http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/entry/yet_another_study_about_fouling_when_up_3

I don't think fouling even crossed Pitino's mind.
 

GophersInIowa said:
Not sure why you or the announcers think it is an obvious decision to foul there. First of all, statistically it has been proven it is better not to foul. Secondly, we are not the best rebounding team in the world.

It's a 50/50 call at best.
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It certainly hasn't been "proven" statistically that it is better not to foul. Are you referring to this study: http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/basket...ines-whether-you-should-foul?urn=ncaab,265182

Or the other one from ESPN that talks about the NBA, where the 3 point line is another 2 feet back?

Both situations in this game were possessions that started with less than ten seconds remaining in the game. That's a markedly different scenario than simply a team's "last possession" . I am of the strong belief that allowing a decent look at a college 3 pointer as opposed to forcing a player to go to the line, make the first free throw, and then miss the second free throw in such a way that it caroms to a teammate who then makes a shot to tie the game is a really, really bad idea.
 



underground629 said:
It's amazing that Knight was once a good coach when he comes off as such an idiot. The best part about the 10 minutes of nonsense regarding the ball hitting the ref was that even if it hadn't, it still touched FSU last. When they first talked about it they made it seem like we lucked out. I also loved Knight talking about chucking the ball up in the air when it wasn't even relevant at the time and never became relevant. I'm glad the other announcers basically ignored him on that one. Then he managed to finish strong by acting like Mo hitting the bottom of the rim shouldn't count as resetting the shot clock.

Unrelated... but can someone explain to me how you can intentionally foul someone off the ball during the last few minutes before the ball is inbounded? That's what happened at the end, but I feel like I'm missing something. Why wouldn't teams always foul the worst ft shooter and not allow any clock to tick off? I know in the NBA you get the shots and the ball--which makes sense--but I don't see how there wouldn't be a similar rule in college.
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I don't know how the one where he tugged Deandre's shorts was not a technical. Absolutely ridiculous that it wasn't called more than just a regular foul. I wonder why Florida St. just didn't keep doing it. After it is not called the first time, just keep doing it to save the clock.

I thought the other one was a true basketball play. The defender was guarding Dre, and then Dre made a quick change of direction.
 


Mulligan said:
Mo goes up with the ball, it's blocked, but it comes off the rim and Florida State should get the ball because, "I'm not even sure that's a shot." Then all of the times where you're wondering if they knew what team was what or what the score even was. Need an honest opinion. Not having seen the telecast, was AggieVision, or whatever the hell it was, worse than this announcing?
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AggieVision was really bad camera work and poor video quality, but I don't think I found it as agitating as having to listen to this crew for 45min.
 

Mulligan said:
Mo goes up with the ball, it's blocked, but it comes off the rim and Florida State should get the ball because, "I'm not even sure that's a shot." Then all of the times where you're wondering if they knew what team was what or what the score even was. Need an honest opinion. Not having seen the telecast, was AggieVision, or whatever the hell it was, worse than this announcing?
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Hard to say because they weren't really announcing. They were sitting courtside and shooting the ****. Totally oblivious to anything going on around them. Three guys just admiring themselves.
 


EG#9 said:
It certainly hasn't been "proven" statistically that it is better not to foul. Are you referring to this study: http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/basket...ines-whether-you-should-foul?urn=ncaab,265182

Or the other one from ESPN that talks about the NBA, where the 3 point line is another 2 feet back?

Both situations in this game were possessions that started with less than ten seconds remaining in the game. That's a markedly different scenario than simply a team's "last possession" . I am of the strong belief that allowing a decent look at a college 3 pointer as opposed to forcing a player to go to the line, make the first free throw, and then miss the second free throw in such a way that it caroms to a teammate who then makes a shot to tie the game is a really, really bad idea.
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No matter how you put it, it is not a no-brainer decision like you and the announcers are making it out to be.
 

Ah, so it has to do with whether the refs judge it to be intentional or not. I figured that was the case. I'm still surprised there aren't more issues with this.
 

Happy stabbing everyone. See y'all Thursday night.
 

lars3212 said:
Two things to think about.. One, FSU had a serious size advantage and would have had better opportunities to rebound a missed FT. Two, the data says defending is a better strategy: http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/entry/yet_another_study_about_fouling_when_up_3

I don't think fouling even crossed Pitino's mind.
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The data certainly doesn't show that defending is a better strategy. You are comparing a 93.3% success rate to a 94.1% success rate when the total instances surveyed are just over 800 with only 135 of those being of the foul strategy. The other issue is the foul/no foul date that KenPom is using takes all possessions that started with between 5 and 12 seconds left on the clock. Both scenarios for the Gophers tonight were on the very low end of that spectrum, with the regulation possession possibly starting with less than 5 seconds left. KenPoms own conclusion is inconclusive, other than he no longer believes it's a slam dunk to foul. The other issue is we are not just talking wins and losses here, but the frequency with which the game ends up in OT. In the limited sample size, the fouling teams end up in OT significantly less than the non-fouling teams do.
 

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