Morris Claiborne scores 4 on the Wonderlic

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Relevant portion of the article:

A 2009 study by professors from Fresno State University, the University of Georgia and Towson State found no connection between Wonderlic scores and performance during the first three years of a player's NFL career. The group studied 762 players from the 2002, 2003 and 2004 draft classes.

John W. Michel, an assistant professor at Towson University who co-authored the study, told the Washington Post: "We found in no cases was cognitive ability related to (football) performance. We did find a negative relationship for tight ends and defensive backs. For defensive backs, it was the most pronounced; basically, the lower you scored on the Wonderlic, the better you performed."
 

John Galt said:
That's 4 out of 50 and ties for the lowest score ever. Good thing all he has to do is cover...

http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2012/st...op-cb-prospect-scored-4-wonderlic-sources-say
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It's stories like this that confirm my "fandom" of the Gophers and the Big10 as a whole. We'll never truly compete with the scum of the SEC, and this is why. They are simply football factories, and not academic institutions. They are a joke...much like the region of the country they reside in.
 


Unregistered User said:
Relevant portion of the article:

A 2009 study by professors from Fresno State University, the University of Georgia and Towson State found no connection between Wonderlic scores and performance during the first three years of a player's NFL career. The group studied 762 players from the 2002, 2003 and 2004 draft classes.

John W. Michel, an assistant professor at Towson University who co-authored the study, told the Washington Post: "We found in no cases was cognitive ability related to (football) performance. We did find a negative relationship for tight ends and defensive backs. For defensive backs, it was the most pronounced; basically, the lower you scored on the Wonderlic, the better you performed."
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So is it safe to say he will have the best first 3 years of any DB?
 



Unregistered User said:
Relevant portion of the article:

A 2009 study by professors from Fresno State University, the University of Georgia and Towson State found no connection between Wonderlic scores and performance during the first three years of a player's NFL career. The group studied 762 players from the 2002, 2003 and 2004 draft classes.

John W. Michel, an assistant professor at Towson University who co-authored the study, told the Washington Post: "We found in no cases was cognitive ability related to (football) performance. We did find a negative relationship for tight ends and defensive backs. For defensive backs, it was the most pronounced; basically, the lower you scored on the Wonderlic, the better you performed."
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A study like this doesn't "prove" that a better wonderlic score does not suggest better performance than a low score with all else equal because they aren't able to hold all else equal. Obviously a player with superior athletic ability and a low score will outperform a player with average athletic ability and a high score. Based on the idea that players earn their spots based on their football ability its pretty likely there were a lot of superior ability/low score players in the sample while not many lower/ability low score players as they don't tend to be in the nfl.

I think it's still safe to say that between 2 equally skilled players, the "smarter" one will perform better. Now whether the wonderlic is able to measure this can be debated - and I don't think empirically answered - but I'd say there is at least some amount of accuracy.
 


A 4 is still pathetic. Either he's that dumb, or, even worse, has a terrible work ethic/attitude. At least Vince Young got a 6 his first shot.
 



CrocShots said:
A 4 is still pathetic. Either he's that dumb, or, even worse, has a terrible work ethic/attitude. At least Vince Young got a 6 his first shot.
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Yeah...from what I remember about the test and what the questions are like, anyone who can tie their shoes and give an interview could at least get to double digits. A score like that seems like it speaks more to the kid just not giving a damn how he does.
 

Gophers09 said:
A study like this doesn't "prove" that a better wonderlic score does not suggest better performance than a low score with all else equal because they aren't able to hold all else equal. Obviously a player with superior athletic ability and a low score will outperform a player with average athletic ability and a high score. Based on the idea that players earn their spots based on their football ability its pretty likely there were a lot of superior ability/low score players in the sample while not many lower/ability low score players as they don't tend to be in the nfl.

I think it's still safe to say that between 2 equally skilled players, the "smarter" one will perform better. Now whether the wonderlic is able to measure this can be debated - and I don't think empirically answered - but I'd say there is at least some amount of accuracy.
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Assuming the study is sound, If it were true that 'all other things equal' a player with a higher score will perform better than a player with a lower score it would have shown up as a positive correlation between score and performance with a sample that large.

Are you suggesting that If the sample were expanded to include all college players, not just those invited to the combine, that such a positive correlation would exist?
 


I would like to see a study like that broken down by the round they were drafted. Compare those from the 1st round only, or even top 10 picks over a longer period.
 



Seriously, it's an idiot test. If you only can score a 4 on it .....you're simply an idiot. But can an idiot run around a football field and hit people - of course.
 

GopherHomer said:
It's stories like this that confirm my "fandom" of the Gophers and the Big10 as a whole. We'll never truly compete with the scum of the SEC, and this is why. They are simply football factories, and not academic institutions. They are a joke...much like the region of the country they reside in.
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Same thing I thought of when I heard this. What a joke LSU looks like. There is no way he attended classes and learned anything during his college years. Pathetic.
 

Gophers09 said:
A study like this doesn't "prove" that a better wonderlic score does not suggest better performance than a low score with all else equal because they aren't able to hold all else equal. Obviously a player with superior athletic ability and a low score will outperform a player with average athletic ability and a high score. Based on the idea that players earn their spots based on their football ability its pretty likely there were a lot of superior ability/low score players in the sample while not many lower/ability low score players as they don't tend to be in the nfl.

I think it's still safe to say that between 2 equally skilled players, the "smarter" one will perform better. Now whether the wonderlic is able to measure this can be debated - and I don't think empirically answered - but I'd say there is at least some amount of accuracy.
Click to expand...


The sample sizes are pretty large and there are definitely ways to zero in on some positive correlations. I think at worst, the data suggests that the Wonderlic scores do not matter for DBs. It would be really easy to look at players with relatively similar athletic profiles, drafted near eachother and compare their scores with their success in the NFL.
 

badgergopher said:
Assuming the study is sound, If it were true that 'all other things equal' a player with a higher score will perform better than a player with a lower score it would have shown up as a positive correlation between score and performance with a sample that large.

Are you suggesting that If the sample were expanded to include all college players, not just those invited to the combine, that such a positive correlation would exist?
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I'm saying the ability to play football at a given level is based on athletic ability and to a lesser degree "football IQ". A sample of players from a given level will include players with high athletic ability (relative to the level) with high or low football IQ as well as players with marginal athletic ability and high football IQ. It is not likely that there will be many players that are low on both measures.

If that is the case and a player has low football IQ, it is very likely he has high athletic ability (otherwise how did he make it into the population?). The sample of high football IQ players will have lower athletic ability on average because many of the players are in the sample in the first place on the basis of "outperforming" their ability. If the sample is split based on football IQ and one group has higher athletic ability this would scew the results to favor that group.

Now I've made the assumption here that wonderlic equals football IQ which it obviously does not. My contention though would still be that it provides a semi-accurate measurement of a qualitative attribute.
 

To be fair, I read that Morris has profound learning disabilities (Dyslexia)...not related to intelligence. His agent did him a disservice by not preparing him for the test. I feel for this poor kid, I have a daughter that is profoundly dyslexic, but very bright. When tests were conducted orally, they do very well.

There was a great story of this young man five or more years ago, who graduated from Harvard, with his mom attending every class with him and taking notes for him.
 

I'd love to see a study that compares Wonderlic with SAT or ACT scores. For example it might be possible to state that the likelihood of a person receiving a qualifying score on the SAT while scoring less than 10 on the Wonderlic after finishing college is one in a million.

I would like to see this because it would expose football factories & test cheats.

In Claiborne's situation however it sounds like it might just be dyslexia.
 

Trojan Princess said:
To be fair, I read that Morris has profound learning disabilities (Dyslexia)...not related to intelligence. His agent did him a disservice by not preparing him for the test.
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I agree. Doesn’t the kid have an agent? An advisor? Somebody helping him through this process? I can’t believe it would be a surprise that he might struggle on this type of test. It shouldn’t be that hard to give him a sample test to see how he does and then either do a little bit of focused preparation (if the test is viewed as that important) or just advise him to skip the test altogether. That might raise questions, but he would have been far better off refusing to take the test than he is having scored that low. Even if it doesn’t change his draft position, he’s been publicly embarrassed.
 

This is why people shouldn't leak this stuff and others shouldn't comment on it - people come off as complete dbags now that we know he has a learning disability. Are you still judging him?
 

FireCosgrove--- I'm not judging him but I wonder what it tells us about the system.

How do you score a 4 on this type of exam and somehow manage to make grades in your academic coursework?

Unreal.
 

FireCosgroveGuy said:
This is why people shouldn't leak this stuff and others shouldn't comment on it - people come off as complete dbags now that we know he has a learning disability. Are you still judging him?
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Yes.
 


wels0081 said:
FireCosgrove--- I'm not judging him but I wonder what it tells us about the system.

How do you score a 4 on this type of exam and somehow manage to make grades in your academic coursework?

Unreal.
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The test is timed...and the person taking the test must read it on his own. In a classroom setting, the university can provide someone to take notes for the student, even though that same student can have an amazing ability to retain and process what they hear.

I would equate it with attempting to take a timed test that you are reading in a foreign language you minimally speak.
 

wels0081 said:
FireCosgrove--- I'm not judging him but I wonder what it tells us about the system.

How do you score a 4 on this type of exam and somehow manage to make grades in your academic coursework?

Unreal.
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you don't think the professors would work with him or the huge number of tutors the football staff has on hand? if he's dyslexic they could give him oral tests. it's not that hard to figure out.
 

I teach 8th graders and the ones with diagnosed learning disabilities are pretty good at speaking up/advocating for themselves. I would hope that he would have advocated for himself to receive accommodations (longer time/questions read to him etc.)
 

Trojan Princess said:
To be fair, I read that Morris has profound learning disabilities (Dyslexia)...not related to intelligence. His agent did him a disservice by not preparing him for the test. I feel for this poor kid, I have a daughter that is profoundly dyslexic, but very bright. When tests were conducted orally, they do very well.

There was a great story of this young man five or more years ago, who graduated from Harvard, with his mom attending every class with him and taking notes for him.
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If true, I do take back what I said (yep, that's the problem with spouting off without all the facts). They should allow someone from the test administrators to read the test questions and answers, since the idea is to simply see if someone can answer the questions.
 

GopherHomer said:
It's stories like this that confirm my "fandom" of the Gophers and the Big10 as a whole. We'll never truly compete with the scum of the SEC, and this is why. They are simply football factories, and not academic institutions. They are a joke...much like the region of the country they reside in.
Click to expand...

Correct.

RodentRampage said:
Here's a link to a sample Wonderlic test...

http://walterfootball.com/draftwonderlic.php
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I had to take the Wonderlic for applying at an insurance company a handful of years ago. It really wasn't all that hard, and I almost failed out of high school. I don't recall my score, but it wasn't 4, I know that much.
 

Trojan Princess said:
To be fair, I read that Morris has profound learning disabilities (Dyslexia)...not related to intelligence. His agent did him a disservice by not preparing him for the test. I feel for this poor kid, I have a daughter that is profoundly dyslexic, but very bright. When tests were conducted orally, they do very well.

There was a great story of this young man five or more years ago, who graduated from Harvard, with his mom attending every class with him and taking notes for him.
Click to expand...

I thought that was the case, hence my post above. Hopefully that won't hinder him too much.
 

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