Mid-Majors?

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Southpaw

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I've noticed that several of you have referred to any transfer recruit outside of the P6 conferences as coming from a "Mid-Major" - I would disagree with that categorization. Of our 4 initial transfer recruits only one (Battle - George Washington) came from what I would consider a mid-major (Atlantic 10). The rest (Stephens - Lafayette); (Loewe - William and Mary); and (Sutherlin - New Hampshire) are from low-major conferences (Patriot, Colonial and America East, respectively). To me, the following conferences (and perhaps a couple of others) are considered mid-major:
Missouri Valley​
Mountain West​
Atlantic 10​
West Coast​
American Athletic​
​
The rest of the conferences are the ones that typically only have one bid in the tournament. Why does it matter? I think it's a big step to go from low-major to P6 and our expectations should be adjusted accordingly. Having said that, I am cautiously optimistic that even the lower level transfers will be able to contribute to a successful season. Go Gophers!​
 


Care to give some reason for your categorization or criteria you used for it?
 


I think the knowledgable people around here know the difference between the Atlantic 10 or Mountain West and the Patriot or Colonial Athletic Conference. Nevertheless there are good players in the latter two conferences as well and some of them are better players than selected players you might find on the low end of Big Ten rosters, especially if those low majors are mature players. Michael Hurt received an offer from Bucknell but I'm pretty confident that he never would have made an All Patriot League team had he gone there.

Players don't stop developing after high school and there are some players who improve between the ages of 18 and 23 more than others.
 


Some guy said:
That’s all semantics

Q:
is Missouri valley mid major or low major?

A:
It doesn’t matter
Click to expand...

Yes, you can talk of a mid-major or low major or you can talk of a lower mid-major or higher mid-major.
 



Some guy said:
That’s all semantics

Q:
is Missouri valley mid major or low major?

A:
It doesn’t matter
Click to expand...
I agree that it's somewhat semantics but it certainly still matters in terms of projecting our incoming recruits.

Of course their stats should be factored against their level of competition. That's really all anyone is getting at when we are talking about their respective conferences.
 



Ultimately, I think what separates mid-majors from high majors is talent. A mid-major may have one really good player and a couple of decent players. A high major will have more really good players.

and I tend to believe that having more good players around you makes you better.

So, just because a player is at a mid-major does not mean that he lacks talent. Put that same player on a better and deeper team and he's going to look better.

Now, I don't think any of the new players are going to come in and be all-conference guys from day 1, but I think there is enough talent there to be competitive ------ depending on the type of system being played.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
I agree that it's somewhat semantics but it certainly still matters in terms of projecting our incoming recruits.

Of course their stats should be factored against their level of competition. That's really all anyone is getting at when we are talking about their respective conferences.
Click to expand...
I mean for projections of individual stats maybe a little. But stats have as much to do with fit as they do with talent at times. In terms of team success I’m not sure it matters if Battle played in colonial or WCC or wherever
 

Some guy said:
I mean for projections of individual stats maybe a little. But stats have as much to do with fit as they do with talent at times. In terms of team success I’m not sure it matters if Battle played in colonial or WCC or wherever
Click to expand...
Sure, but they still matter (as does fit).
 

cjbfbp said:
Players don't stop developing after high school and there are some players who improve between the ages of 18 and 23 more than others.
Click to expand...
This is a good point that gets lost on people at times. Everyone gets obsessed with recruiting rankings but that only really tells you part of the story. There are late bloomers, and especially with a sport like basketball you can see guys drastically improve parts of their game from one year to the next based on how hard they work in the off season.
 




Some guy said:
True. But what conference they come from doesn’t impact their talent. It only impacts the evaluations of their talent.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. But it seems like you are saying because things aren't dispositive, they don't matter.

We look at level of competition when evaluating people constantly. We certainly do with HS recruits (and we should) but that doesn't make anything conclusive.

I think most of us expect Parker Fox to be further away from 20 pts & 9 rebounds per game than we would if he put up those same numbers in the Mountain West. That doesn't mean he stinks or that he won't be a valuable contributor here, I think most folks are just trying to project a few of our several unknowns.
 

So the way I look at it is this. There are 7 levels to D1 college basketball

1. Major majors
2. Mid-major majors
3. High mid major mid majors
4. Mid majors
5. Undeclared major
6. Top tier low mid major
7. Low majors (think history, communications, etc)

This is a definitive list and I will not be taking questions at this time. Unfortunately none of this matters.
 


I mean this Loewe kid from William and Mary doesnt pass my eyeball test. Im thinking hes gonna be about as useful as Hunt Conroy or Ryan Saunders. Parker Fox is like Wally Ellenson 2.0. Maybe I just underrate white boys who didn't have any steam out of high school but im pessimistic AF about this squad.
 

TurfGopher said:
I mean this Loewe kid from William and Mary doesnt pass my eyeball test. Im thinking hes gonna be about as useful as Hunt Conroy or Ryan Saunders. Parker Fox is like Wally Ellenson 2.0. Maybe I just underrate white boys who didn't have any steam out of high school but im pessimistic AF about this squad.
Click to expand...
Ben Woodside, Matt Janning, and Nate Wolters all played in similar level conferences and didn't have much steam coming out of high school
 

Southpaw said:
I've noticed that several of you have referred to any transfer recruit outside of the P6 conferences as coming from a "Mid-Major" - I would disagree with that categorization. Of our 4 initial transfer recruits only one (Battle - George Washington) came from what I would consider a mid-major (Atlantic 10). The rest (Stephens - Lafayette); (Loewe - William and Mary); and (Sutherlin - New Hampshire) are from low-major conferences (Patriot, Colonial and America East, respectively). To me, the following conferences (and perhaps a couple of others) are considered mid-major:
Missouri Valley​
Mountain West​
Atlantic 10​
West Coast​
American Athletic​
​
The rest of the conferences are the ones that typically only have one bid in the tournament. Why does it matter? I think it's a big step to go from low-major to P6 and our expectations should be adjusted accordingly. Having said that, I am cautiously optimistic that even the lower level transfers will be able to contribute to a successful season. Go Gophers!​
Click to expand...
What about the mid-mid majors?
 

The only thing I have to add to this discussion is that if there are such schools classified as a "mid majors" then it stands to reason that there must also be "low majors".
 

TurfGopher said:
I mean this Loewe kid from William and Mary doesnt pass my eyeball test. Im thinking hes gonna be about as useful as Hunt Conroy or Ryan Saunders. Parker Fox is like Wally Ellenson 2.0. Maybe I just underrate white boys who didn't have any steam out of high school but im pessimistic AF about this squad.
Click to expand...
The teams who were after Fox were very impressive -

247sports.com

D2 All-American transfer Parker Fox commits to Minnesota

Parker Fox has committed to Ben Johnson and the Minnesota Gophers.
247sports.com 247sports.com

Creighton, Cal, Clemson, South Carolina, LSU, St. John's, Xavier, Butler, Arkansas, Nebraska, Vanderbilt, Seton Hall, Texas A&M, TCU, Boston College, Georgetown, New Mexico and Dayton came calling but today he made his decision.

Fox had a final eight schools of Minnesota, Ohio St, Creighton, San Diego St, Florida St, TCU, Vanderbilt, and Dayton. He recently had Zoom calls and regular communication with Ohio State, San Diego State, and Creighton.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Absolutely. But it seems like you are saying because things aren't dispositive, they don't matter.

We look at level of competition when evaluating people constantly. We certainly do with HS recruits (and we should) but that doesn't make anything conclusive.

I think most of us expect Parker Fox to be further away from 20 pts & 9 rebounds per game than we would if he put up those same numbers in the Mountain West. That doesn't mean he stinks or that he won't be a valuable contributor here, I think most folks are just trying to project a few of our several unknowns.
Click to expand...
I don’t think you can find a single take from me on either the football or basketball board speculating what an individual recruit can do. I sometimes will say guys that I don’t think can contribute. I rarely prognosticate in a positive way because I have no idea.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
I think most of us expect Parker Fox to be further away from 20 pts & 9 rebounds per game than we would if he put up those same numbers in the Mountain West.
Click to expand...

Well, hardly anyone averages 20+ points per game in Big Ten Conference games (look it up!) so I would say that his chances of doing that are slim, like most Big Ten players.
 

Southpaw said:
I've noticed that several of you have referred to any transfer recruit outside of the P6 conferences as coming from a "Mid-Major" - I would disagree with that categorization. Of our 4 initial transfer recruits only one (Battle - George Washington) came from what I would consider a mid-major (Atlantic 10). The rest (Stephens - Lafayette); (Loewe - William and Mary); and (Sutherlin - New Hampshire) are from low-major conferences (Patriot, Colonial and America East, respectively). To me, the following conferences (and perhaps a couple of others) are considered mid-major:
Missouri Valley​
Mountain West​
Atlantic 10​
West Coast​
American Athletic​
​
The rest of the conferences are the ones that typically only have one bid in the tournament. Why does it matter? I think it's a big step to go from low-major to P6 and our expectations should be adjusted accordingly. Having said that, I am cautiously optimistic that even the lower level transfers will be able to contribute to a successful season. Go Gophers!​
Click to expand...
Spot on.

If we are going to use the terms, we may as well use them accurately--with the understanding that they represent general categories and will be just one factor among many when we evaluate a transfer. As another poster said, "not dispositive".
 

Some guy said:
That’s all semantics

Q:
is Missouri valley mid major or low major?

A:
It doesn’t matter
Click to expand...
It is semantics in the sense that some terms mean some things--and other terms mean other things!
If we use the terms, we must think they have some sort of meaning--even if they are not deeply meaningful... But--using the words accurately will assist us to understand what you are trying to say, which, some people believe, HELPS!
 

GopherPlaya said:
Ben Woodside, Matt Janning, and Nate Wolters all played in similar level conferences and didn't have much steam coming out of high school
Click to expand...
Wolters had a very strange recruitment. Chose to play for a relatively unknown (at the time) AAU team instead of driving to the metro to play for more heralded teams. He was their first D1 commit ever, they’ve since grown and helped a ton of kids get to college.

His high school team was very good (lost to an absolutely loaded Hopkins team) but played pretty weak competition overall. He was the best player obviously but didn’t exert himself or score 40ppg like he could have. Was almost passive at times.

Nate is the most unassuming dude I’ve ever met. Will see him wearing old t shirts and gym shorts around town. Would never guess he played in the NBA and has a successful overseas career.
 

CYW5 BornGoph said:
It is semantics in the sense that some terms mean some things--and other terms mean other things!
If we use the terms, we must think they have some sort of meaning--even if they are not deeply meaningful... But--using the words accurately will assist us to understand what you are trying to say, which, some people believe, HELPS!
Click to expand...
I mean if George Washington being a mid major instead of a low major impacts you in any way you are unhealthily invested in college basketball
 



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