How bad could Buggs be? ... 2/25/14 Update: Not bad at all!

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MadtownGopher said:
I don't care who starts, but I trust Buggs in the game at the end more than King. King's indecisveness with the ball at the top of the key absolutely kills our offensive flow. It doesn't help that he is not a threat on offense in any circumstance. Buggs is someone you have to at least pay attention to, both as an offensive threat and someone that can go up and get rebounds.

Start King, but play Buggs more and at the end of games. I wouldn't be surprised to see that happen against PSU if it comes down to the last few minutes (which hopefully it doesn't).
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I see the potential as an offensive threat and An effective rebounder I just don't see it all there yet. I think Pitino planned on playing Buggs in the end game but when he made those couple errors at the end of the game he pulled him.

as much as you say King is stagnant on offense I would say Buggs, today, is the same effect when he's in the wrong spot half the time. Also buggs has 0 post threat, at least he hasn't shown it yet. And he hasn't show much off the bounce. He's a weapon in transition and has been world beater accurate from downtown.

I think we will see more of Buggs in the next game but I think the net contribution from the 4 will be roughly the same, extremely short of where we need to be.

I like buggs, the vitriol is simply pointed in the wrong spot and the comparisons are unfair.
 

MadtownGopher said:
I think everyone agrees with you about King. NO ONE expected him to be a good starting PF, but since he is better than our 4th year PF, he's forced in to a position that he wasn't ready for and probably never will be. He gives full effort and has become about as much as we could hope for. Starting next year he will be a valuable hustle/glue type guy off the bench. That doesn't mean Buggs shouldn't have an opportunity to steal some minutes from him though and really that's all people are saying.
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Agreed. I like King. He seems focused and competitive, which I love. I cheer for him when he is in and want him to do well, I just want to see Buggs get more playing time. People may be ripping him in that other thread, but I've chosen not to read or participate in that.
 

Winasota Gopher said:
I see the potential as an offensive threat and An effective rebounder I just don't see it all there yet. I think Pitino planned on playing Buggs in the end game but when he made those couple errors at the end of the game he pulled him.

as much as you say King is stagnant on offense I would say Buggs, today, is the same effect when he's in the wrong spot half the time. Also buggs has 0 post threat, at least he hasn't shown it yet. And he hasn't show much off the bounce. He's a weapon in transition and has been world beater accurate from downtown.

I think we will see more of Buggs in the next game but I think the net contribution from the 4 will be roughly the same, extremely short of where we need to be.

I like buggs, the vitriol is simply pointed in the wrong spot and the comparisons are unfair.
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If that's the case then that's another reason to play Buggs. If you're going to get the same result, why not play the guy with far more upside and in need of more experience?
 

Winasota Gopher said:
as much as you say King is stagnant on offense I would say Buggs, today, is the same effect when he's in the wrong spot half the time. Also buggs has 0 post threat, at least he hasn't shown it yet. And he hasn't show much off the bounce. He's a weapon in transition and has been world beater accurate from downtown.
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First, how do you know that he's in the wrong spot? Are you familiar with their system and sets?

Second, Mo is the only one on the team that can score in the post. So saying Buggs isn't a post threat doesn't mean much when King is equally as bad/nonexistent.

Third, where is King's threat off the bounce? I don't see it and we've had a much larger sample size from him.


Both Buggs and King are "stretch" PFs that prefer to hang on the perimeter. King isn't a horrible 3pt shooter, but right now I'd take Buggs. King is a horrible rebounder and I've actually been encouraged with Buggs motor and ability to get tough to reach boards. He is arguably the only one on the team that even tries to get offensive rebounds. I'd also take Buggs' length and athleticism on defense though I admit he isn't a Rodney Williams or DJ on the defensive end.
 

MadtownGopher said:
I think everyone agrees with you about King. NO ONE expected him to be a good starting PF, but since he is better than our 4th year PF, he's forced in to a position that he wasn't ready for and probably never will be. He gives full effort and has become about as much as we could hope for. Starting next year he will be a valuable hustle/glue type guy off the bench. That doesn't mean Buggs shouldn't have an opportunity to steal some minutes from him though and really that's all people are saying.
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That is a reasonable position to have Madtown. For the record, I'm not against Buggs getting more time either. This certainly isn't an anti-Buggs rant. More of a "scratching my head" about some of the comments directed at King rant....
 


golfing18now said:
The issue that I have with all the King bashing that is going on is I think the venom is pointed in the wrong direction. King was not recruited to be an above average big ten 4 this year. He was viewed by all of us as a bench player this year that may develop over his three year Gopher career. However, he was thrown into the fire due to a lack of other options and has now become the team's punching bag. The four was expected to be our biggest weakness this year and that is exactly what has transpired, but I would blame a few other things before I would blame King for that position's struggles.

1. Blame the NCAA for not allowing the Buckles transfer, which is precisely the type of player this teams sorely lacks
2. Blame the previous coaching regime for not recruiting or developing viable depth at that position
3. Blame the two players in front of King at the start of the year, Oto and Buggs, for not developing themselves into better options
4. Blame the current coaching regime for putting all their eggs in the Buckles basket and not signing another body to fill that void

Lastly, I would blame King, but not for lack of effort. He was put in a position that probably wasn't fair to him. Trying to live up to expectations that probably weren't realistic in year one.
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If it sounds like King bashing....I guess I should tone it back. I don't mean to bash on him. He's only a soph and he's undersized for big ten play. He'll improve. But aggressiveness has to be a player trait. Towards the end of the game.....I simply trust Buggs more.
 

Just reading the argument, you both have logical, persuasive arguments, it's just about how you look at it. I personally would like to see Buggs play more and King play less, but I do agree with several things you guys say.
1) King works hard, and plays focused. He is a solid defender. The expectations on him are too high. But, he's an awful rebounder and is a non-threat offensively. Still more experience than Buggs.
2) Buggs also works hard. He doesn't always know where to go, and has those freshman moments which can really hurt us. But he is just that, a freshman. Incredibly talented, and more skilled and a better rebounder than King.
 

golfing18now said:
The issue that I have with all the King bashing that is going on is I think the venom is pointed in the wrong direction. King was not recruited to be an above average big ten 4 this year. He was viewed by all of us as a bench player this year that may develop over his three year Gopher career. However, he was thrown into the fire due to a lack of other options and has now become the team's punching bag. The four was expected to be our biggest weakness this year and that is exactly what has transpired, but I would blame a few other things before I would blame King for that position's struggles.

1. Blame the NCAA for not allowing the Buckles transfer, which is precisely the type of player this teams sorely lacks
2. Blame the previous coaching regime for not recruiting or developing viable depth at that position
3. Blame the two players in front of King at the start of the year, Oto and Buggs, for not developing themselves into better options
4. Blame the current coaching regime for putting all their eggs in the Buckles basket and not signing another body to fill that void

Lastly, I would blame King, but not for lack of effort. He was put in a position that probably wasn't fair to him. Trying to live up to expectations that probably weren't realistic in year one.
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putting all their eggs in the Buckles basket? They didn't put all their eggs in the Buckles basket because they did sign King. Also Andre Ingram was decent depth from last year at the PF position but he isn't here anymore. I do mostly agree with you though. The NCAA is the most to blame, not King, we would be a top 20 team with Buckles this year.
 

GophersOnTheRise said:
If that's the case then that's another reason to play Buggs. If you're going to get the same result, why not play the guy with far more upside and in need of more experience?
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I've never said don't play buggs. I'm simply trying to defend Joey as he is being unfairly convicted here as well as temper expectations of Buggs. King did not cost us that game and buggs wouldn't have won it I can promise you that. Both have large holes in their output.

MadtownGopher said:
First, how do you know that he's in the wrong spot? Are you familiar with their system and sets?

Second, Mo is the only one on the team that can score in the post. So saying Buggs isn't a post threat doesn't mean much when King is equally as bad/nonexistent.

Third, where is King's threat off the bounce? I don't see it and we've had a much larger sample size from him.


Both Buggs and King are "stretch" PFs that prefer to hang on the perimeter. King isn't a horrible 3pt shooter, but right now I'd take Buggs. King is a horrible rebounder and I've actually been encouraged with Buggs motor and ability to get tough to reach boards. He is arguably the only one on the team that even tries to get offensive rebounds. I'd also take Buggs' length and athleticism on defense though I admit he isn't a Rodney Williams or DJ on the defensive end.
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First- no I don't know the offense to the point where I would say "I know the offense" but I recognize when buggs is in the high post standing next to a high ball screen, or when a player redirects him either verbally or with hand signals. It's not every time and I might be looking harder, but it's noticiable for me, and I do think it effects things.

2nd- if you're going to give Buggs the benefit of the doubt everywhere else, give Joey some credit in the low post. His skills are not great, but he can cause mismatches. Enough so that the team and even coach look for him to get the ball into the post. He has had some nice hooks in the center of the lane and I can recall some drop steps here and there.

Third- I've never said Joey is a threat off the bounce?

I agree Joey is a bad rebounder. I don't see the benefits from buggs motor on the defensive end or on the boards yet. For every great play(everyone is pointing to the ft offensive board) I can remember a bonehead play that was as impactful.

I'm not saying King over Buggs for life, maybe not even today. I just HATE the mob mentality that Joey suddenly is soo bad and Buggs is the savior. If anything Joey is playing way better than he was, and he's not even playing all that poorly.

This team has to find ways to win despite the 4 not because of it.
 



RolGnav said:
Buggs deserves a chance to start at the 4. The other two aren't cutting it, and giving Buggs a chance to develop is the best for the team. Especially vs Penn State.
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Kidding right, one of the least fundamentally sound players I have seen defensively with a Gopher uniform on, Wally got schooled at times but Buggs looks like he is throwing one of the football "Lookout Blocks" on quite a few occasions, hopefully he'll get there, he isn't even close now.
 

Winasota Gopher said:
I've never said don't play buggs. I'm simply trying to defend Joey as he is being unfairly convicted here as well as temper expectations of Buggs. King did not cost us that game and buggs wouldn't have won it I can promise you that. Both have large holes in their output. First- no I don't know the offense to the point where I would say "I know the offense" but I recognize when buggs is in the high post standing next to a high ball screen, or when a player redirects him either verbally or with hand signals. It's not every time and I might be looking harder, but it's noticiable for me, and I do think it effects things. 2nd- if you're going to give Buggs the benefit of the doubt everywhere else, give Joey some credit in the low post. His skills are not great, but he can cause mismatches. Enough so that the team and even coach look for him to get the ball into the post. He has had some nice hooks in the center of the lane and I can recall some drop steps here and there. Third- I've never said Joey is a threat off the bounce? I agree Joey is a bad rebounder. I don't see the benefits from buggs motor on the defensive end or on the boards yet. For every great play(everyone is pointing to the ft offensive board) I can remember a bonehead play that was as impactful. I'm not saying King over Buggs for life, maybe not even today. I just HATE the mob mentality that Joey suddenly is soo bad and Buggs is the savior. If anything Joey is playing way better than he was, and he's not even playing all that poorly. This team has to find ways to win despite the 4 not because of it.
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Well said. Joey is also one of the better players at feeding the post. He is always looking to get Mo the ball and doesn't just jack shots. Sometimes holds the ball too long though too.

Also, his rebounding has gotten better throughout the year. I recall a few plays against UM where he had his guy fully boxed out so Mo or EE or whoever could get the board. Gophers also had one of their highest DR% of the year this game.
 

LOL at Joey is one od our best players at feeding the post. You obviously didn't watch the Iowa game.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
 

MadtownGopher said:
LOL at Joey is one od our best players at feeding the post. You obviously didn't watch the Iowa game. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
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Can I ask which is bigger, your Charles Buggs poster or your Joey King dart board?
 



It doesnt matter who plays the rest of the year at the 4. It is going to be a crap shoot either way. I really dont think any of our current 4's will have major minutes next year. The staff clearly wants at least two new 4's next year.
3 pts, 6 boards and 2 turnovers from the position last night. Pathetic!
 

I think the attacks on Joey are based one higher expectations than at the start of the season based on his improvement that are probably un-realistic. He is going to work hard, hit a couple 3's, and maybe make a few buckets down low. However, he will never be an elite scorer, rebounder or defender.

IMO Charles has given the team more than King in the last two games and he is a year younger. The team will be better off this year, and in the future, if Buggs continues to EARN the right to play more minutes than the other two options at the 4. If his play drops off sit him down, you know what you will get out of King. It's not like they can't reverse the decision to play Buggs more. Basketball is all about riding hot hands.
 

I think the attacks on Joey are based on higher expectations than at the start of the season based on his improvement that are probably un-realistic. He is going to work hard, hit a couple 3's, and maybe make a few buckets down low. However, he will never be an elite scorer, rebounder or defender.

IMO Charles has given the team more than King in the last two games and he is a year younger. The team will be better off this year, and in the future, if Buggs continues to EARN the right to play more minutes than the other two options at the 4. If his play drops off sit him down, you know what you will get out of King. It's not like they can't reverse the decision to play Buggs more. Basketball is all about riding hot hands.

Good for Charles having a positive attitude while not playing. Now that positive karma is paying off. Wish Wally would have been the same way, he could be stealing some of Malik's minutes lately.
 

gopherlaney said:
I think the attacks on Joey are based one higher expectations than at the start of the season based on his improvement that are probably un-realistic. He is going to work hard, hit a couple 3's, and maybe make a few buckets down low. However, he will never be an elite scorer, rebounder or defender. IMO Charles has given the team more than King in the last two games and he is a year younger. The team will be better off this year, and in the future, if Buggs continues to EARN the right to play more minutes than the other two options at the 4. If his play drops off sit him down, you know what you will get out of King. It's not like they can't reverse the decision to play Buggs more. Basketball is all about riding hot hands.
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Age wise, I believe King is actually a year younger than Buggs. Class wise Buggs is younger.
 

The fact that we're debating between Joey King & Charles Buggs as our best option at the 4 sucks. Which one is younger is meaningless because neither is the long term solution. Oto, when he was healthy was hands down our best option, but he's not healthy so it is what it is.

I'm sure we'll bring in a Juco PF or a transfer to start next year with Josh Martin backing him up & Buggs hopefully play 5 minutes a game, which is where he should be at.
 

Costa Rican Gopher said:
The fact that we're debating between Joey King & Charles Buggs as our best option at the 4 sucks. Which one is younger is meaningless because neither is the long term solution. Oto, when he was healthy was hands down our best option, but he's not healthy so it is what it is. I'm sure we'll bring in a Juco PF or a transfer to start next year with Josh Martin backing him up & Buggs hopefully play 5 minutes a game, which is where he should be at.
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But how old is Mbakwe compared to Kevin Love?
 


Costa Rican Gopher said:
The fact that we're debating between Joey King & Charles Buggs as our best option at the 4 sucks. Which one is younger is meaningless because neither is the long term solution. Oto, when he was healthy was hands down our best option, but he's not healthy so it is what it is.

I'm sure we'll bring in a Juco PF or a transfer to start next year with Josh Martin backing him up & Buggs hopefully play 5 minutes a game, which is where he should be at.
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Based on this, do you expect King to play the 3 next year? I've thought of that, but I don't think he handles the ball well enough for what Pitino wants to do.
 

howeda7 said:
Based on this, do you expect King to play the 3 next year? I've thought of that, but I don't think he handles the ball well enough for what Pitino wants to do.
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For the same reasons as he's playing the 4 this year, he just might. We might be completely devoid of a starting player at the 3 next year so you may see a couple guys playing that spot. Morris could be the starter, or one of our incoming freshman that are yet unsigned. However, if none of them pan out to be starting caliber next year, we just may see Joey get minutes as the 3. Which would be terrible.
 

Winasota Gopher said:
For the same reasons as he's playing the 4 this year, he just might. We might be completely devoid of a starting player at the 3 next year so you may see a couple guys playing that spot. Morris could be the starter, or one of our incoming freshman that are yet unsigned. However, if none of them pan out to be starting caliber next year, we just may see Joey get minutes as the 3. Which would be terrible.
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If a guy is going to be playing out of position at the 3, I think McNeil is far more likely to do so than King.
 

GophersOnTheRise said:
If a guy is going to be playing out of position at the 3, I think McNeil is far more likely to do so than King.
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I agree, my comment was if Morris was just not the guy and we don't get another recruit. McNeil isn't playing 40 minutes.

Absolute worst case scenario, but that's what we have this year essentially.
 

Winasota Gopher said:
I agree, my comment was if Morris was just not the guy and we don't get another recruit. McNeil isn't playing 40 minutes.

Absolute worst case scenario, but that's what we have this year essentially.
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Gotcha. I personally think Buggs would be more likely to play the 3 with McNeil than King in that scenario, but hopefully we get Piper and Morris ends up being good so we don't have to worry about any of that.
 


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