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I am sorry I stole your thunder Bruce. You seemed SO EXCITED to prove me wrong. Didn't mean to disappoint you. Maybe another day?!
 

But otherwise Bruce, I guess I thought my saying that Tubby needed to get the team BACK into the polls by THE END OF THE SEASON, would have made the implication clear that I was talking about END of season polls.

See, we have ALREADY been in the polls this year, for MOST of the season in fact. So if all we needed to do was make the polls for a single week, well, wouldn't we have already accomplished that this year?! And in a couple other years of Tubby's time here?!

But I stated he needed to get back into the polls by the end of the season, to have done it once in his 6 years?!

Thought it was obvious, but I guess I was wrong. Sorry Bruce. Will 10 lashes do?
 

We never been very good and never will be. Poor Tubby never had a chance. If it will actually take a mircle to become a basketball power then why not fold up the tent and we all can go root for Bo Ryan. lol Wonder how their record was before he got there? These history lessons would be better served on a site that would like us to drop major sports.
 

Blackhammer --

Well for one, I don't, and never have, cheered for the Gophers just because they are winners. They have been my team basically since birth and always will be my team, no matter what. And the miracle we are talking about here, isn't the 2nd coming or something, or someone walking on water or changing water into wine or rising from the dead.
No, Musselman was a miracle, and a curse. He made Minnesotans believe we could be great, and then ended up he was a cheater or something. I don't know all the details, I just know they got him for over 100 violations. Not sure if it gave us an actual advantage or not, but that doesn't really matter.


The Big Ten has gotten pretty tough these days, and without a MAJOR investment of something, money, time, effort, administrative support, fan support, or more likely, ALL of those things, I just don't think we'll be able to compete and move up into the upper echelon of the Big Ten. Unless we get REALLY LUCKY, or stumble upon a miracle worker.

The miracle worker could show up this spring and quickly turn things around. That would be nice.


But what some of us are trying to say, is...

Why pray for a miracle or hope to get lucky?! Let's start making that HUGE investment, of money, time, effort, support, etc. so that if our next coach isn't a miracle worker, maybe he won't have to be, maybe if we make a HUGE investment in the program, all we'd need is a good coach.

Tubby Smith is probably a good coach, but DEFINITELY not a great coach, or a miracle worker. Had Tubby come into a program that received a HUGE investment of money, time, effort, support, had a Practice Facility, etc., then maybe he could have done better than he did. But that wasn't the case. The University of Minnesota was trying to get by without making much of an investment at all. Sure, they paid Tubby pretty good, but other than that, there was no HUGE investment made towards the program by the administration, the fans, boosters, etc..


Maybe its time for Tubby to go? But don't be shocked if our next coach struggles somewhat as well, and finishes, on average, 6th or 7th in the Big Ten, getting to the Big Dance occasionally, but never getting very far in the tourney. UNLESS we get lucky and find that miracle worker, that is.
 


#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat said:
Blackhammer --

Well for one, I don't, and never have, cheered for the Gophers just because they are winners. They have been my team basically since birth and always will be my team, no matter what. And the miracle we are talking about here, isn't the 2nd coming or something, or someone walking on water or changing water into wine or rising from the dead.
No, Musselman was a miracle, and a curse. He made Minnesotans believe we could be great, and then ended up he was a cheater or something. I don't know all the details, I just know they got him for over 100 violations. Not sure if it gave us an actual advantage or not, but that doesn't really matter.


The Big Ten has gotten pretty tough these days, and without a MAJOR investment of something, money, time, effort, administrative support, fan support, or more likely, ALL of those things, I just don't think we'll be able to compete and move up into the upper echelon of the Big Ten. Unless we get REALLY LUCKY, or stumble upon a miracle worker.

The miracle worker could show up this spring and quickly turn things around. That would be nice.


But what some of us are trying to say, is...

Why pray for a miracle or hope to get lucky?! Let's start making that HUGE investment, of money, time, effort, support, etc. so that if our next coach isn't a miracle worker, maybe he won't have to be, maybe if we make a HUGE investment in the program, all we'd need is a good coach.

Tubby Smith is probably a good coach, but DEFINITELY not a great coach, or a miracle worker. Had Tubby come into a program that received a HUGE investment of money, time, effort, support, had a Practice Facility, etc., then maybe he could have done better than he did. But that wasn't the case. The University of Minnesota was trying to get by without making much of an investment at all. Sure, they paid Tubby pretty good, but other than that, there was no HUGE investment made towards the program by the administration, the fans, boosters, etc..


Maybe its time for Tubby to go? But don't be shocked if our next coach struggles somewhat as well, and finishes, on average, 6th or 7th in the Big Ten, getting to the Big Dance occasionally, but never getting very far in the tourney. UNLESS we get lucky and find that miracle worker, that is.
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Wow. You continue to amaze me. You are so intent on advocating your point of view, you have neglected to understand, or at least appear uninterested in understanding, what anyone is really thinking or trying to say.
 

scher215 said:
Larranaga hadn't made the final four in 5 years before leaving for Miami, he probably should have just been fired though as he didn't meet those lofty expectations, right?

Hewitt better make it this year or he should be gone. Not living up to those final four expectations.

Their fans are just accepters of mediocrity if they keep him.
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For Scher - I have not advocated firing tubby. Not once.

I have, however, pointed out that the results of the GG BB team under tubby have been mediocre, at best.

Miami has not been a great bb team historically, right for Ssher?

How in the world can Cane fans expect any better than bottom ACC? Right For Scher?
 

#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat said:
Blackhammer --

stuff
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tldr.jpg
 

scher215 said:
How did you factor sanctioned years out of curiosity? Did they go 0-0, 0-18, or whatever the actual record was?
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I didn't change them. I figured that it pretty much balances out when looking at it over a period of time. We were probably better than we should have been before the sanctions, but probably worse than we should have been just after the sanctions.
 



lakesgopher said:
I agree with dpo, preseason Nc state and duke were expected to run away with the acc, maybe the Miami players and their parents thought different. But if you guys want to be sticklers about the "no one" comment I will rephrase for him, no one nationally that covers NCAA basketball thought Miami would be a top 25 team let alone be top 10.
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Huge difference Lakes. Being that dpo is mr stickler there is no way he can make that statement without knowing every single person. I would think there is a very good chance someone in or close to the program may very well have seen this possibility, though I wouldn't be so brazen to claim it as fact.

I would also speculate anyone who did expect this may not have based their opinion on the teams 100 year history.
 

Ozzy & Ray --

Maybe you are right?! Maybe I am doing that, or being that way? Maybe you or others are the same way as well?!

I think that you guys have this image of what happened back in the day, and its fantasy. It's like the Hollywood version of the truth. Based on a true story, the key word being "based", but embellished, changed to attract a bigger audience, to keep their attention or interest when the simple truth would be too boring.


So maybe that is distracting me from seeing the point you are trying to make?!


You make it out as if we did so much better back then, but the Big Ten was FAR LESS competitive back then than it is now. A 5th place finish in the Big Ten this year is a more worthy accomplishment than a 3rd place finish in the Big Ten back in the 70's or early 80's, and a 6th or 7th place finish now is probably more of a worthy accomplishment than a 4th or 5th place finish was then.

For one, we have more teams now. 12 vs 10. And we have more teams that end up ranked in the Natl Polls.



So Kundla, Fitch and Hanson averaging 5th place finishes over their combined 12 years, hardly outshines Tubby's 7th place average over the last 4-5 years. A 7th place finish now is at least close to getting a team ranked, whereas back then, it was not common for the 3rd place Big Ten team get ranked and it was very rare to get 4 teams ranked, if it ever happened before the late 80s.

Dutcher's average was only 5.7 out of 10 teams, for the 10 years his teams records counted.

Clem's 7 legit years, his average was 6.7.

Monson's average over 7 yrs was 7.86.

Tubby's average of 7.00 his last 4 years, with one more team than Clem had, and 2 more this year, is about on par with Clem, but a 7th place finish now is better than it was in the late 80s and early 90s even.

It's been a slow transformation. The B1G has gotten bigger, deeper and stronger.

6 teams ranked Top 16 last year?! 6 ranked Top 20 this year.

8 teams ranked Top 30 in the Sagarin & Ken-Pom ratings.


Not the same situation as back in the supposed good ole days.
 

station19 said:
Huge difference Lakes. Being that dpo is mr stickler there is no way he can make that statement without knowing every single person. I would think there is a very good chance someone in or close to the program may very well have seen this possibility, though I wouldn't be so brazen to claim it as fact.

I would also speculate anyone who did expect this may not have based their opinion on the teams 100 year history.
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agree station......
 

#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat said:
Ozzy & Ray --

Maybe you are right?! Maybe I am doing that, or being that way? Maybe you or others are the same way as well?!

I think that you guys have this image of what happened back in the day, and its fantasy. It's like the Hollywood version of the truth. Based on a true story, the key word being "based", but embellished, changed to attract a bigger audience, to keep their attention or interest when the simple truth would be too boring.


So maybe that is distracting me from seeing the point you are trying to make?!


You make it out as if we did so much better back then, but the Big Ten was FAR LESS competitive back then than it is now. A 5th place finish in the Big Ten this year is a more worthy accomplishment than a 3rd place finish in the Big Ten back in the 70's or early 80's, and a 6th or 7th place finish now is probably more of a worthy accomplishment than a 4th or 5th place finish was then.

For one, we have more teams now. 12 vs 10. And we have more teams that end up ranked in the Natl Polls.



So Kundla, Fitch and Hanson averaging 5th place finishes over their combined 12 years, hardly outshines Tubby's 7th place average over the last 4-5 years. A 7th place finish now is at least close to getting a team ranked, whereas back then, it was not common for the 3rd place Big Ten team get ranked and it was very rare to get 4 teams ranked, if it ever happened before the late 80s.

Dutcher's average was only 5.7 out of 10 teams, for the 10 years his teams records counted.

Clem's 7 legit years, his average was 6.7.

Monson's average over 7 yrs was 7.86.

Tubby's average of 7.00 his last 4 years, with one more team than Clem had, and 2 more this year, is about on par with Clem, but a 7th place finish now is better than it was in the late 80s and early 90s even.

It's been a slow transformation. The B1G has gotten bigger, deeper and stronger.

6 teams ranked Top 16 last year?! 6 ranked Top 20 this year.

8 teams ranked Top 30 in the Sagarin & Ken-Pom ratings.


Not the same situation as back in the supposed good ole days.
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I am not living in a fantasy land about the good 'ol days. You're putting words in my mouth regarding what I said about our program. I never said we were a top program every year. I said we were a competitive program, most years, that made runs here and there, which we did in the '80s and '90s.

I also don't think the Big Ten is routinely better now than it was then. In fact, it was just a couple of years ago it was widely recognized as a very poor conference. It's up this year, and I think may end up being overrated by the end of the year as you like to point out. I don't think it is necessarily true that a 5th place finish is similar to a 3rd place finish in the '80s or '90s. I think as the year had played out, there are a lot of holes in the Big Ten leading teams this year - Ohio State is not that good, Michigan State is limited offensively, Wisconsin is in fourth place and they have limitations. In the end, there are really two teams that are pretty strong, and the most consistent is Indiana.

The conference was as successful, or more, come tourney time in the '80s and '90s, and it was a very different game. Michigan, with all their freshman, would likely not be a top ten team in the '90s. Yes, the Fab Five was, this Michigan team is not the Fab Five.

Your responses had almost zero relation to what my initial post was. You have your own "Wren-like" agenda.

Also, some interesting "facts" as you present them. Another way to look at it:

Haskins had a pretty good run. Yes, I know there was a scandal, but as my point was in the initial post, some of grew used to competitive teams. 7 out of 13 years he finished in the top half of the big ten, with a championship. After his first two years in the program in which he didn't have much of a team (no one expected them to be any good those years), he went to the NCAA tourney 6 years out of 11, and won the NIT two of the years they didn't go. When in the NCAA, they advanced four of the six years. He only finished in the bottom half of the conference, after the first two years, two times out of eleven and the year they took 8th place they won the NIT. After his first four years as coach he had gone to the 2nd round of the NCAA, as well as the Elite Eight. In the next seven years they finished fourth or better 5 times with a final four run, and only finished in the bottom half of the conference once. That is a pretty strong run of competitive basketball that some of us watched in college and our twenties.

Jim Dutcher had some low years, but he also finished first or second 3 of ten years, and had a .500 or better record in the big ten 6 of ten years. Again, very competitive basketball.

There is no "good 'ol days" that I was speaking to. Just growing up watching, for the most part, good, competitive teams.
 



You want to see a good Big Ten? Look at 1989.


BTW, the Gophers went 9-9 in Haskins third year and made the Sweet Sixteen that year. Also beat 3 top five teams at home, including #1 Illinois.
 

Ozzy&Ray --

Just to give you a little short background, grew up watching the Gophers and vaguely remember Musselman's teams, and the big fight. I met Randy Breuer in person at the MHSL State Title game, his Lake City Lakers were taking on my High school team, also called the Lakers and I had front row seats, this was the year before he joined the Gophers, so I was very familiar with that 82 team as well. I graduated and went off to the Army right after Lou Holtz left and Clem Haskins showed up. So my main connection to home, other than calls to my parents, were news clippings of how the Gophers were doing, and discussions with my fellow Army mates from all over the country, about sports. I followed the Gophers every game and listened to games on the radio while out in the field holding an m-16, when I could get them on the radio. I remember people getting mad at me while I was in Germany because I'd have to stay up and listen to the games at 3 am and I can get very loud when something really good or really bad happens. I remember the 1989 season very distinctly, as well as the 1990 season as I attended the 3rd and 4th round games down in New Orleans, so I got to watch the Gophers in person lose to Georgia Tech. I then followed the Gophers very closely all through the 90s and all the way through until today.

So I am well aware of Gopher bb history, from 72-present. What I didn't remember from personal experience, I've looked up and researched on my own.

The more I looked into Gopher fb history and Gopher hk history, the more impressed I became.
Unfortunately, the more I looked into Gopher bb history, the less impressed I became.

But unlike cfb, cbb is played indoors, and hence, the task of turning the Gophers into a natl power with a ton of money thrown at it, could be an easy one. Simply build everything possible to make Minnesota the most well equipped place to play basketball anywhere, hire a good coach, pay him well, hire great assts, pay them well, get a great recruiter, pay him well, and then hope things fall into place, if they don't, fire that coach and bring in another one. It's possible here, but without lots of money invested in the program, we'll need a miracle worker for a coach. Tubby isn't a miracle worker.



As for my comments about a 7th place finish now equaling a 5th place finish back in the day, I was referring to the 1970s and EARLY 80s, not the late 80s and through the 90s. And the thing about the raised expectations that came with Clem's bringing the program up, I was right there with you, but that all came crashing down when the scandal broke. Our reputation was mud for many years there. And the Big Ten's really good right now, its going to take more than just a good coach to bump us up. It's going to take MONEY and intelligent planning or a Miracle worker.
 

#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat said:
But unlike cfb, cbb is played indoors, and hence, the task of turning the Gophers into a natl power with a ton of money thrown at it, could be an easy one. Simply build everything possible to make Minnesota the most well equipped place to play basketball anywhere, hire a good coach, pay him well, hire great assts, pay them well, get a great recruiter, pay him well, and then hope things fall into place, if they don't, fire that coach and bring in another one. It's possible here, but without lots of money invested in the program, we'll need a miracle worker for a coach. Tubby isn't a miracle worker.
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Agree with your point, but I don't know that it would take a TON of money but rather a commitment similar to what Wisconsin made to their sports under Shalala in the 1990s. Key is selling the plan to the big donors
 

#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat said:
Ozzy&Ray --

Just to give you a little short background, grew up watching the Gophers and vaguely remember Musselman's teams, and the big fight. I met Randy Breuer in person at the MHSL State Title game, his Lake City Lakers were taking on my High school team, also called the Lakers and I had front row seats, this was the year before he joined the Gophers, so I was very familiar with that 82 team as well. I graduated and went off to the Army right after Lou Holtz left and Clem Haskins showed up. So my main connection to home, other than calls to my parents, were news clippings of how the Gophers were doing, and discussions with my fellow Army mates from all over the country, about sports. I followed the Gophers every game and listened to games on the radio while out in the field holding an m-16, when I could get them on the radio. I remember people getting mad at me while I was in Germany because I'd have to stay up and listen to the games at 3 am and I can get very loud when something really good or really bad happens. I remember the 1989 season very distinctly, as well as the 1990 season as I attended the 3rd and 4th round games down in New Orleans, so I got to watch the Gophers in person lose to Georgia Tech. I then followed the Gophers very closely all through the 90s and all the way through until today.

So I am well aware of Gopher bb history, from 72-present. What I didn't remember from personal experience, I've looked up and researched on my own.

The more I looked into Gopher fb history and Gopher hk history, the more impressed I became.
Unfortunately, the more I looked into Gopher bb history, the less impressed I became.

But unlike cfb, cbb is played indoors, and hence, the task of turning the Gophers into a natl power with a ton of money thrown at it, could be an easy one. Simply build everything possible to make Minnesota the most well equipped place to play basketball anywhere, hire a good coach, pay him well, hire great assts, pay them well, get a great recruiter, pay him well, and then hope things fall into place, if they don't, fire that coach and bring in another one. It's possible here, but without lots of money invested in the program, we'll need a miracle worker for a coach. Tubby isn't a miracle worker.



As for my comments about a 7th place finish now equaling a 5th place finish back in the day, I was referring to the 1970s and EARLY 80s, not the late 80s and through the 90s. And the thing about the raised expectations that came with Clem's bringing the program up, I was right there with you, but that all came crashing down when the scandal broke. Our reputation was mud for many years there. And the Big Ten's really good right now, its going to take more than just a good coach to bump us up. It's going to take MONEY and intelligent planning or a Miracle worker.
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I believe it was the Lake City Tigers. Nearly positive.
 

Nope. Lake City Lakers. I know, I was at the game. Front row seat. Got my picture on the front page of my local paper with a caption that referred to it being a game of Lakers vs Lakers. I stayed in the same hotel as both teams, as my father was the bb coaches boss. I met Randy Breuer that weekend, and never saw someone so tall in my whole life. He was OVER 2 feet taller than me at the time. lol
 

jamolo --

I think that we agree. I've stated before that what we need is either a miracle, or to make a SERIOUS INVESTMENT, and that investment could be TONS of money, but it could also be some money combined with time and effort and admin support, etc..

But you are right, a commitment similar to what Wisconsin made to its big time sports. Minnesota has lagged behind the rest of the Big Ten in this regard for far too long, and then wonder why our fb and bb programs have struggled?!

And with the expansion going on now, its even more important that we make this move, this commitment, this investment, RIGHT NOW, before Big Ten newcomers Rutgers, Maryland and probably Virginia and GT/UNC come into the conference and get a jump on us. We need for them to come into the conference and have to work hard to catch up to us, not the other way around.
 

WilliamsArenaGuy said:
You want to see a good Big Ten? Look at 1989.


BTW, the Gophers went 9-9 in Haskins third year and made the Sweet Sixteen that year. Also beat 3 top five teams at home, including #1 Illinois.
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Two Big Ten teams in the Final Four including the national champion.
 

#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat said:
Nope. Lake City Lakers. I know, I was at the game. Front row seat. Got my picture on the front page of my local paper with a caption that referred to it being a game of Lakers vs Lakers. I stayed in the same hotel as both teams, as my father was the bb coaches boss. I met Randy Breuer that weekend, and never saw someone so tall in my whole life. He was OVER 2 feet taller than me at the time. lol
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I played in the old HVL.

It was Tigers. And Breuer was there at that time.

Unless I am really losing it......
 

I quote the MSHSL website in speaking about Randy Breuer "In 1979 he scored 42, 30 and 41 points in three games at state as the LAKERS repeated as champs." Emphasis mine.

www.mshsl.org/mshsl/100yrBPlayers.asp



Like I said, I was AT THE GAME.

They may have changed their moniker to the Tigers, but in 1979, it was the Lakers.
 

sunnyday2 said:
Just about every different thing has been said so it's not clear what exactly the "delusions" are. The fact is that the Gophers have never been a basketball power. Wait. I take that back. National championships in 1902, 1903 and 1919; Big 10 titles 1906, 1907, 1917, 1919. The Gophers have not been a basketball power since 1919. That is the truth.

Since then Big 10 titles in 1937, 1972, 1982 and 1997, 2 of them tainted. But call it 4 titles since 1919, almost 100 years now.

It will take a "miracle" to become a basketball power now. Like I said, Tubby has proved not to be a miracle man. And, so, roll the dice.
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One of them tainted. Plus, an Elite Eight run two coaches ago. But I can't disagree with the argument that we don't have many banners in Williams Arena.

I'm not as worried about banners. I remember many seasons in the 70s, 80s and 90s that did not end with a banner, yet we were competitive. Not say that we're not competitive this season. But when we were on the bubble as recently as the early 90s (pre-scandal), if the Big Ten leader was coming into the Barn, you thought the Gophers could win -- not because of a miracle, but because we were competitive with anybody at home. Aside from a few games early this season, I haven't really had that feeling too often for 10 years. But it was there for many, many years, banner or not.
 

seasons in the 70s, 80s and 90s? Competitive?

90s I might agree with you about, and its surprising how your team can compete when it is cheating.


70s and 80s? Well, pre-Clem, maybe competitive in the Big Ten, but not so much nationally. From 1960 to 1978, the Big Ten only averaged 1.6 teams that made both the AP and Coaches poll. If you add on years 1979 to 1985 and include any team that made either poll, the average is still only 2.00.

That's 52 Big Ten teams got ranked over a 26 year period. That's not what you'd consider a power conference.


Now in both 1986 and 1989 four Big Ten teams made it into the rankings, so that is when things started to change for the Big Ten.

But basically, PRE-Clem Gophers were only marginally competitive in a pretty weak ass Big Ten. And Clem's Gophers weren't much better until he started cheating.
 

#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat said:
I quote the MSHSL website in speaking about Randy Breuer "In 1979 he scored 42, 30 and 41 points in three games at state as the LAKERS repeated as champs." Emphasis mine.

www.mshsl.org/mshsl/100yrBPlayers.asp


Really?


Like I said, I was AT THE GAME.

They may have changed their moniker to the Tigers, but in 1979, it was the Lakers.
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http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...q4HYAg&usg=AFQjCNHQy4PocWAM631Ep9khU4Qs2PbzFQ

Take a look in the upp right corner of the screen
 

Don't know what they are now, but Lake City was the Tigers during Breuer's years.

Are you thinking of Prior Lake? They're the Lakers, and PL also had really good teams in 78 and 79. They had a really good big man (Doug Jones) who wasn't as heralded as Breu, and I think he went to Iowa State.
 

I think our expectations are higher. The mere fact that we will likely make the NCAA tournament this year, yet we still want our worthless coach fired is proof that we demand more.
 

SelectionSunday said:
Don't know what they are now, but Lake City was the Tigers during Breuer's years.
Are you thinking of Prior Lake? They're the Lakers, and PL also had really good teams in 78 and 79. They had a really good big man (Brian Jones?), though not as big or as heralded as Breu.
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Yes, they were.
 

Think of it this way.


1960
1962
1966
1968
1970
1971
1983


All season where ONLY ONE Big Ten team made it into the Natl Polls at the end of the season.

1967?! ZERO Big Ten teams made the Rankings.


1969 - The one poll had 2 teams, but the other poll only had one.



The only real exceptions for the Gophers were 1965 where we lost 3 of our 5 games to the #1 and #2 teams in the nation and 1977, the year that we don't get to claim where 2 of our 3 losses that season came against #1 Michigan and we beat eventual Natl Champs Marquette, but #1 Michigan did get upset by #18 Charlotte in the Elite 8, and since games in March are more important than ones in Nov/Dec, it would seem that even in our best years, the Big Ten just wasn't all that competitive nationally, with the exception of the Big Ten Champs occasionally making a FF here and there. And it wasn't just because we only got one invitation, either.
 

#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat said:
Think of it this way.


1960
1962
1966
1968
1970
1971
1983


All season where ONLY ONE Big Ten team made it into the Natl Polls at the end of the season.

1967?! ZERO Big Ten teams made the Rankings.


1969 - The one poll had 2 teams, but the other poll only had one.



The only real exceptions for the Gophers were 1965 where we lost 3 of our 5 games to the #1 and #2 teams in the nation and 1977, the year that we don't get to claim where 2 of our 3 losses that season came against #1 Michigan and we beat eventual Natl Champs Marquette, but #1 Michigan did get upset by #18 Charlotte in the Elite 8, and since games in March are more important than ones in Nov/Dec, it would seem that even in our best years, the Big Ten just wasn't all that competitive nationally, with the exception of the Big Ten Champs occasionally making a FF here and there. And it wasn't just because we only got one invitation, either.
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West coast schools had better boosters during that period of time (**cough**, UCLA)!
 

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