Gach at Point

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golf said:
Another poster made a good point that the worse teams have more movement. Duke players, for example, just stand around the 3 point line and play drive and dish. Michigan State does this as well. Same for other highly ranked teams. Not much movement.

Lesser teams do more movement in their 4 out offense for obvious reasons. I would say Wisconsin does about the same amount of movement/screening as we do. UMKC and UND did much more movement/screening than us. Are u thinking our offense should have more movement or that our movement just needs to be more effective?
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MN does the "drive" part, however the "dish" part is severely lacking....
 


It's possible that if Gabe was actually making shots that Carr would be more willing to get the ball to him earlier in the possession.

That said I would prefer that Carr would start the offense early in the clock with passes and then do his wheeling and dealing off the dribble later in the clock. It is so easy for the other team to arrange a double team at the start of the possession but not nearly as easy to do it after the ball has circulated and there is action taking place.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Yeah, I have no doubt. He tried to shoe-horn Amir into this role as well. I don't think Pitino did Amir any favors by making him into essentially a ball dominant lead guard rather than a skilled wing.
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But, if we believe the buzz...Amir and his dad wanted Amir to play the point. Maybe it was a factor in him being happy or at least staying as long as he did as a Gopher? No idea, but I think Richard listens and then gives players the opportunity to those who want to be perimeter players or point guards when he recruits them. To Richard's credit he seems to follow through.
But, is it the best idea to do this? Idk
On topic: I think we all agree Carr dominates the ball way, way too much.
 


bga1 said:
It's possible that if Gabe was actually making shots that Carr would be more willing to get the ball to him earlier in the possession.

That said I would prefer that Carr would start the offense early in the clock with passes and then do his wheeling and dealing off the dribble later in the clock. It is so easy for the other team to arrange a double team at the start of the possession but not nearly as easy to do it after the ball has circulated and there is action taking place.
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Yup, greatest example is 1-4 low/baseline: Have we even got a shot in this set?
Watching us burn the shot clock to attack at the end is like watching PJ coach the 4th quarter....the formula just isn't working.
 


How about Mash at the point, Carr and Gach on the wings along with Ihnen and Robbins.
 

UpAndUnder43 said:
He also misses wide open 3s when the ball is passed by others and out of the post. But those don’t count
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Or just that right now Gabe needs all the help he can get, severely off target passes do not help.
 



I just don't think our focus needs to be improving our offense. We've scored plenty of points and haven't really shot the ball well. We've given up plenty and haven't rebounded great. Those worry me more going into the B1G where the comp gets better.
 

Yeah, great idea to take the ball out of the hands of the nations #1 scorer.
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You want the offense to go through Marcus Carr. It's a big reason why the Gophers are 6-0 right now.
 

chri1673 said:
Or just that right now Gabe needs all the help he can get, severely off target passes do not help.
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Plenty of other guys are making shots. Maybe its, and hear me out on this, Gabe? Hard to believe but the evidence is there
 

60's Guy said:
But, if we believe the buzz...Amir and his dad wanted Amir to play the point. Maybe it was a factor in him being happy or at least staying as long as he did as a Gopher? No idea, but I think Richard listens and then gives players the opportunity to those who want to be perimeter players or point guards when he recruits them. To Richard's credit he seems to follow through.
But, is it the best idea to do this? Idk
On topic: I think we all agree Carr dominates the ball way, way too much.
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Yeah, that could be the case. I kind of doubt it though because their seemed to be whispers about him not being utilized properly after he become a PG. There is also such a huge market in the NBA for 3&D wings (much more so than PGs) that it would have been bizarre for them to be pushing Pitino that route. All of that said, parents aren't always the smartest and I have no idea what they wanted. I do agree with you though, if Pitino promised that to Coffey, kudos for him for following through.
 



RogueGopher said:
Yeah, great idea to take the ball out of the hands of the nations #1 scorer.
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You want the offense to go through Marcus Carr. It's a big reason why the Gophers are 6-0 right now.
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It's not exactly revolutionary in the history of basketball for a team to NOT want their PG to be their leading scorer. There aren't many examples of great teams in history that ran their offense effectively through their PG like we do.
 

UpAndUnder43 said:
Love people blaming Carr for Gabe’s inability to make open 3s
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I don't really blame Carr, I blame our offense. I don't think Carr is a tremendous facilitator, but this has been an issue every year for the past 8 years. It's an issue with our offense for years but Carr isn't a natural facilitator.
 

RogueGopher said:
Yeah, great idea to take the ball out of the hands of the nations #1 scorer.
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You want the offense to go through Marcus Carr. It's a big reason why the Gophers are 6-0 right now.
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Remind me again who we've played? B1G opposition will be able to shut down Carr much more effectively than UMKC and LMU.
 

Parcival said:
Remind me again who we've played? B1G opposition will be able to shut down Carr much more effectively than UMKC and LMU.
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Marcus Carr was All-Big Ten 3rd team last year and is preseason All-Big Ten 1st team this year. He's one of the top Guards in the conference. He is not going to be "shut down".
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
It's not exactly revolutionary in the history of basketball for a team to NOT want their PG to be their leading scorer. There aren't many examples of great teams in history that ran their offense effectively through their PG like we do.
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Not arguing that your PG by default should be your leading scorer. Marcus Carr is your best player so he gets the most touches. Your offense should go through your best player. It did last year with Oturu., the year before last with Coffey, and the year before that with Mason.
 



MplsGopher said:
Do assists directly measure "facilitation" ?

Genuine question. Yes, I know what an assist is.
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If you're moving the ball well there is usually an assist tied to a made basket. Carr is taking a lot of shots, but is also good at finding guys who are open. "facilitating" I assume means passing? so I would think assists would be the closest thing to a measure of that.
 


RogueGopher said:
If you're moving the ball well there is usually an assist tied to a made basket. Carr is taking a lot of shots, but is also good at finding guys who are open. "facilitating" I assume means passing? so I would think assists would be the closest thing to a measure of that.
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I can hear your argument. Also, somehow we managed to finish 8-12 in the toughest conference and we basically had only two players. Also five nailbiter losses in there that couldve easily gone our way. Seems like it worked last season.
 
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RogueGopher said:
Not arguing that your PG by default should be your leading scorer. Marcus Carr is your best player so he gets the most touches. Your offense should go through your best player. It did last year with Oturu., the year before last with Coffey, and the year before that with Mason.
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The offense did not go through Oturu last year. Carr's usage was REALLY high. I'm not talking about shot attempts, I'm talking about usage. Our offense dictates that our PGs dribble the ball way too much. You're right, Pitino did it with Carr, Mason, and Coffey. It's bad offense.
 

RogueGopher said:
Was 9th in the NCAA, 2nd in the Big Ten, in assists last year.
currently 9th in the NCCA and 1st in the Big Ten this year.
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Yeah and Russ Westbrook always has really good assist numbers. If you dribble the ball at the top of the key and do either (drive and dish or drive and shoot) that isn't being a good facilitator. Yes, by default you will have a lot of assists because someone has to shoot the ball at the end of the shotclock.

Watch a few NBA games this year and watch the difference between Chris Paul (a great facilitator) and Russ Westbrook (not as great). Watch the positions and the timing of the shotclock when his teammates have the ball.

Paul will also dribble a lot at the end of shotclocks and to set up certain things, but it's not like Russ.
 

RogueGopher said:
If you're moving the ball well there is usually an assist tied to a made basket. Carr is taking a lot of shots, but is also good at finding guys who are open. "facilitating" I assume means passing? so I would think assists would be the closest thing to a measure of that.
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James Harden is top 10 in the NBA in assist doesn’t mean he is a facilitator
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
The offense did not go through Oturu last year. Carr's usage was REALLY high. I'm not talking about shot attempts, I'm talking about usage. Our offense dictates that our PGs dribble the ball way too much. You're right, Pitino did it with Carr, Mason, and Coffey. It's bad offense.
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I think a more fair term is it’s not attractive offense. For the most part we’ve always rated decent in the B1G offensively and on KemPom. I agree with you though that it’s not my favorite to watch. Conversely the two best years Pitinos had year were his two best on D in KenPom. I also think Carrs usage rate goes down in the B1G too, but if it doesn’t we are in major trouble.
 

Gach has a similar skill set and role compared to what Amir Coffey had here.
 

I like the idea of using Gach more as the primary facilitator on offense. Maybe his height will allow him a better angle on those high screen and roll plays with Robbins. Robbins is open often, but it's not always clear to me if Carr can't see him or simply can't find a way to get the ball over/around the defender to Robbins in time. It would also be better to reverse the ball to Carr later in the clock so we don't get those "dribble, dribble, dribble, no-pass" possessions that rarely end well.

Carr could (and should!) still have the ball in his hands plenty with the ability to create for himself or others, but I can see where making him the secondary option in that role (while still the primary late shot clock operator) might give the offense more flow. My only hesitation is that Both has actually been our best 3 point shooter to date, so the on court spacing might actually be worse if Gach is handling and Carr is spacing.
 

I think the thing we’d like to solve are possessions Carr has the ball for about 18 to 24 seconds? Starting the offense with Gach should help that and make the TEAM harder to defend. Most everybody wants Carr to score and depending on the opponent get among the most shots. But Carr over dominating the ball to accomplish it is not using our team assets to their best abilities.
 

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