Face It: Fleck is our Harbaugh

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Otis

Otis

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Just think about it before you slam me.

Harbaugh:
He is 0 for OSU.
Has a losing record to MSU. ( and they have sucked some years.)
I’m pretty sure has a losing record to PSU.
Recruits well, has improved team but CANNOT WIN BIG GAME!

Fleck:
0 for Iowa.
1 for Wisconsin.
Has 1 signature regular season win and a lot of losses to lesser opponents.
Recruits better for his University.
Generally has made team feel like a winner.
But he CANNOT WIN THE BIG GAME!

Tell me I’m wrong.
 

Otis said:
Just think about it before you slam me.

Harbaugh:
He is 0 for OSU.
Has a losing record to MSU. ( and they have sucked some years.)
I’m pretty sure has a losing record to PSU.
Recruits well, has improved team but CANNOT WIN BIG GAME!

Fleck:
0 for Iowa.
1 for Wisconsin.
Has 1 signature regular season win and a lot of losses to lesser opponents.
Recruits better for his University.
Generally has made team feel like a winner.
But he CANNOT WIN THE BIG GAME!

Tell me I’m wrong.
Click to expand...
Fleck gave us the best season of my lifetime and I'm damn near 40. Harbaugh has not given Michigan their best win in my life time.

Not slamming you, but that's a big ole difference.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Fleck gave us the best season of my lifetime and I'm damn near 40. Harbaugh has not given Michigan their best win in my life time.

Not slamming you, but that's a big ole difference.
Click to expand...
Agreed, but that season may have been the easiest Gopher schedule of your lifetime until this year.
 

Otis said:
Just think about it before you slam me.

Harbaugh:
He is 0 for OSU.
Has a losing record to MSU. ( and they have sucked some years.)
I’m pretty sure has a losing record to PSU.
Recruits well, has improved team but CANNOT WIN BIG GAME!

Fleck:
0 for Iowa.
1 for Wisconsin.
Has 1 signature regular season win and a lot of losses to lesser opponents.
Recruits better for his University.
Generally has made team feel like a winner.
But he CANNOT WIN THE BIG GAME!

Tell me I’m wrong.
Click to expand...
Iowa is our rival, but they are pretty much us. We just can't get out of our own way against them.

I just don't get the Iowa love.
 

Otis said:
Agreed, but that season may have been the easiest Gopher schedule of your lifetime until this year.
Click to expand...
It's pretty much the same schedule every year. Mediocre Big 10 west teams. Wisconsin being Wisconsin. And 2 crossover games.

It's pretty much the same schedule every single year.
 


The difference Michigan is a blue blood program, Minnesota is not. Getting to the big game is a accomplishment at Minnesota, yes we want to win them but do we want to go back to celebrating 6-6 seasons and playing in the Detroit bowl. PJ has dramatically improved are program.
 

BigGopher69 said:
The difference Michigan is a blue blood program, Minnesota is not. Getting to the big game is a accomplishment at Minnesota, yes we want to win them but do we want to go back to celebrating 6-6 seasons and playing in the Detroit bowl. PJ has dramatically improved are program.
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I’m not saying he hasn’t.
But are we better than we were with Mason? Recruiting wise, yes. But win wise, no.
 

Otis said:
Agreed, but that season may have been the easiest Gopher schedule of your lifetime until this year.
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That fact that you're in a position to slice and dice and analyze HOW we got to those 11 wins is brand new territory for Gopher football.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Fleck gave us the best season of my lifetime and I'm damn near 40. Harbaugh has not given Michigan their best win in my life time.

Not slamming you, but that's a big ole difference.
Click to expand...
Also, a horrible comparison because if fleck did what harbaugh has done at Michigan he would be lifetime contract territory.
10 wins 3 times in 7 years (and counting)
9 wins 5 times in 7 years.
Never fewer than 8 wins in a non pandemic year
 



2019 and this year are the two years where it's fair to analyze, in my opinion.

Don't forget that the wins over Purdue and Nebraska (this year moreso) are also big, as they are difficult and important wins in the West.

Both games in Iowa City had close scores. The 2019 Wisc loss was bad. Let's see what happens this year.
 

I think what the person is trying to say is that Fleck is missing that "it" when it comes to coaching in big games. He has figured out how to make big games matter, as has Harbaugh, but neither can seem to win them. The thing I like about Fleck is that his is still learning and can become the difference maker we need. The fact Fleck has made our games matter means a lot and worthy of the extra years he got with this contract. The thing that will tell us if he gets another is if he can figure out how to win in big games against rivals. right now he seems to be conservative at all the wrong moments and take unnecessary risks at the worst times. I do believe Iowa is living rent free in his head right now and he needs to figure out at his core what determines coaching decisions.
 

Some guy said:
Also, a horrible comparison because if fleck did what harbaugh has done at Michigan he would be lifetime contract territory.
10 wins 3 times in 7 years (and counting)
9 wins 5 times in 7 years.
Never fewer than 8 wins in a non pandemic year
Click to expand...
But that's kind of the point though. When you are looking at how a person is doing at their job, you typically compare it with how a replacement would do in the same position.

I am not one of those people who thinks Harbaugh should be on the hot seat in Michigan, for the reasons you have stated, but judging coaches in drastically different types of programs by W/L seems silly.

Dan Mullen will likely get canned for a record that would get him a statue at Vanderbilt.
 

Minnesota has won a fair number of the big games since Wisconsin 2018

Wisconsin 2018
Penn State 2019
Auburn 2019 (2020)
Nebraska 3x consecutive

In there, they also lost

Wisconsin 2019
Iowa 2019
Wisconsin 2020
Iowa 2020
Ohio State 2021
Iowa 2021

So about .500 against the teams we consider major rivals or other elite teams in the Big Ten. 3 of the losses were very, very close.
 




"Comparisons steal your joys". I am happy this team is in the conversation to be dissappointed in that Iowa loss. I'm not satisfied by any means, but happy that this team is in position to escalate its stature. I get that harblow sucks at the big game, but I'm happy PJ puts the U in position to have big and meaningful games. Not at shitagain's level, but getting there. I truly believe it will happen. I'm just so frustrated at the moment, but I do honestly think we as a team/fan base are on to something good. I don't think they are far off. Minor tweaks would have beat iowa. Better planning and urgency by the coaching staff would have beat BG and illannoys. Also having a competent passing game would help............ I am excited for Athan to get going whenever that is. I do believe good things are ahead.
 

kg21 said:
Iowa is our rival, but they are pretty much us. We just can't get out of our own way against them.

I just don't get the Iowa love.
Click to expand...

I don't really see it as Iowa love. More Iowa irritation/hate.

If you go over the last 2 decades they have 2 B1G championships and 1 division championship. Since the Gophers last B1G championship Iowa has 3 other B1G championships. During that span the Gophers have 0 and really haven't been a legit contender in any season over that span.

If you're looking for recent history, in the last 4 years prior to this one:

Iowa was 21-14 in the B1G (.600), 33-14 overall (.702)
Minnesota was 15-19 in the B1G (.441) and 26-19 overall (.578)

KF is 17-6 vs Minnesota.
The 2 best Gopher teams of my lifetime are 2003 and 2019. Both lost to good but not great Iowa teams. The 2003 team was down 40-6 before Ferentz called off the dogs.

Iowa fans don't like this but they've have to come to grips with the fact that despite there being absolutely zero excuses for it, Wisconsin is a far superior program than they are.

Minnesota fans don't like it but they have to come to grips with the fact that despite there being absolutely zero excuses for it, Iowa is a far superior program than they are.

It sucks but it is what it is.
 

He couldn't be our Harbaugh. He doesn't wear those khaki pants.
 



Xerxes_ said:
I don't really see it as Iowa love. More Iowa irritation/hate.

If you go over the last 2 decades they have 2 B1G championships and 1 division championship. Since the Gophers last B1G championship Iowa has 3 other B1G championships. During that span the Gophers have 0 and really haven't been a legit contender in any season over that span.

If you're looking for recent history, in the last 4 years prior to this one:

Iowa was 21-14 in the B1G (.600), 33-14 overall (.702)
Minnesota was 15-19 in the B1G (.441) and 26-19 overall (.578)

KF is 17-6 vs Minnesota.
The 2 best Gopher teams of my lifetime are 2003 and 2019. Both lost to good but not great Iowa teams. The 2003 team was down 40-6 before Ferentz called off the dogs.

Iowa fans don't like this but they've have to come to grips with the fact that despite there being absolutely zero excuses for it, Wisconsin is a far superior program than they are.

Minnesota fans don't like it but they have to come to grips with the fact that despite there being absolutely zero excuses for it, Iowa is a far superior program than they are.

It sucks but it is what it is.
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Not a single gopher fan or wisconsin fan or Iowa fan would dispute anything you just wrote.

not really sure how people expect this to change overnight.
badgers have been working on it since the early 90s
Iowa since the mid 80s

Mason started working on it in the late 90s Brewster hire set us back a decade. Kill basically started building this program in 2012. We are 9 years into a 30 year rebuild to match those two programs.

Any by the way…Iowa and wisconsin are trying to get better as we try to get caught up.
 


BTChamp said:
"Comparisons steal your joys". I am happy this team is in the conversation to be dissappointed in that Iowa loss. I'm not satisfied by any means, but happy that this team is in position to escalate its stature. I get that harblow sucks at the big game, but I'm happy PJ puts the U in position to have big and meaningful games. Not at shitagain's level, but getting there. I truly believe it will happen. I'm just so frustrated at the moment, but I do honestly think we as a team/fan base are on to something good. I don't think they are far off. Minor tweaks would have beat iowa. Better planning and urgency by the coaching staff would have beat BG and illannoys. Also having a competent passing game would help............ I am excited for Athan to get going whenever that is. I do believe good things are ahead.
Click to expand...
The frustration is coming from "minor tweaks would have beat Iowa". I agree but why would we wait till next year to make minor improvements?
 

FullBanana said:
I’m not happy with him, but not because I want him to leave. I want him to change his best.
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Frankly I want him to do what he states he believes in. Truly have and 'eat' those tough conversations for breakfast, don't ignore them. 'LISTEN' to others who might have good input. My guess is that he's making all these decisions based on what he feels is right, not taking input from the other coaches. Kicking FG's versus going for it, trying FG's at times when it seems crazy based on earlier game time decisions, calling timeouts, letting the clock rundown, refusing to pass the ball in certain instances, playing the players who give us a better chance to win based on performance (QB).

If your actions don't align with your slogans, it's hard to keep people engaged with what you're saying and to me right now, his actions don't align with his many slogans for becoming 'elite'.
 
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Dakota2 said:
The frustration is coming from "minor tweaks would have beat Iowa". I agree but why would we wait till next year to make minor improvements?
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I don't want to wait until next year. I wanted those tweaks during the game and during the BG and bielma games. I was mainly getting that this team is close to being pretty good. I know they won't change anything this year, but hopefully they make the changes after the Detroit Poisoned Water Bowl.
 

fmlizard said:
Minnesota has won a fair number of the big games since Wisconsin 2018

Wisconsin 2018
Penn State 2019
Auburn 2019 (2020)
Nebraska 3x consecutive

In there, they also lost

Wisconsin 2019
Iowa 2019
Wisconsin 2020
Iowa 2020
Ohio State 2021
Iowa 2021

So about .500 against the teams we consider major rivals or other elite teams in the Big Ten. 3 of the losses were very, very close.
Click to expand...
Great try with the inclusion of Nebraska.
 

BTChamp said:
I don't want to wait until next year. I wanted those tweaks during the game and during the BG and bielma games. I was mainly getting that this team is close to being pretty good. I know they won't change anything this year, but hopefully they make the changes after the Detroit Poisoned Water Bowl.
Click to expand...
As I wrote elsewhere, I am convinved PJ isn’t smart enough to make those adjustments himself and I know dam well he hasn’t surrounded himself with football genius.
 

fmlizard said:
Minnesota has won a fair number of the big games since Wisconsin 2018

Wisconsin 2018
Penn State 2019
Auburn 2019 (2020)
Nebraska 3x consecutive

In there, they also lost

Wisconsin 2019
Iowa 2019
Wisconsin 2020
Iowa 2020
Ohio State 2021
Iowa 2021

So about .500 against the teams we consider major rivals or other elite teams in the Big Ten. 3 of the losses were very, very close.
Click to expand...
Well, Wisconsin was terrible that year and many Badgers fans will tell you that was the worse season since pre Alvarez.

Penn state is two games away from firing James Franklin.

Auburn fired their coach last year and is currently unranked.

Those wins are severly watered down right now.
 

Otis said:
Just think about it before you slam me.

Harbaugh:
He is 0 for OSU.
Has a losing record to MSU. ( and they have sucked some years.)
I’m pretty sure has a losing record to PSU.
Recruits well, has improved team but CANNOT WIN BIG GAME!

Fleck:
0 for Iowa.
1 for Wisconsin.
Has 1 signature regular season win and a lot of losses to lesser opponents.
Recruits better for his University.
Generally has made team feel like a winner.
But he CANNOT WIN THE BIG GAME!

Tell me I’m wrong.
Click to expand...
I disagree with one signature win.
 

Pete smith said:
As I wrote elsewhere, I am convinved PJ isn’t smart enough to make those adjustments himself and I know dam well he hasn’t surrounded himself with football genius.
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Don't agree. PJ is plenty smart. He is also stubborn.. In the case of Morgan he is protective. Doesn't want to hurt Tanner's legacy by pulling him. That blinds him to the fact the legacy is being tarnished every game
 

When you are 120th out of 130 teams in passing yards per game and are 103 of 130 in completion percentage with 57.5% (78 teams are above 60%), something is wrong. That is a specific problem. Nevertheless, beating Wisconsin - and Indiana - would go a long way to making this a more successful season. Win those two, finish 8-4 and win a bowl and end up 9-4 and ranked, would look and feel good. All is not lost (yet).
 

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